School conjuration (creation); Level sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 minute
Components V, S, M (a tiny piece of matter of the same sort of item you plan to create with minor creation)
Range 0 ft.
Effect unattended, nonmagical object of nonliving plant matter, up to 1 cu. ft./level
Duration 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate Craft skill check to make a complex item.Attempting to use any created object as a material component causes the spell to fail.
So, lets say I get the duration of this to 40 hours (extended and CL 20), and make an abnormally large carrot. Then eat said abnormally large carrot. What happens in 40 hours after I have finished digesting it? Does the nourishment from said carrot leave me? If this is all I have been eating will I begin to starve? Or do I keep the nutrients from the food and only the waste disappears?
ummmm, i assume it all disappears. there is a spell specifically for creating food and water which says the food sticks around after being created (presumably to handle this exact issue) that i'm basing my assumption on.
Suppose you created firewood with minor creation. You then burned the firewood. While the ashes might disappear, the heat gained from the combustion is not somehow retroactively pulled from wherever it has gone. If you had used the fire to warm your stew and make some tea, you don't suddenly feel colder later.
Why not? You made it magically appear out of nowhere in the first place, why wouldn't the energy produced disappear just as suddenly?
I'm not trying to be argumentative, im just wondering what makes the idea of reversing the original effect seem so outlandish when casting the spell in the first place breaks one of the fundamental laws of thermodynamics. Essentially, why does it seem more natural to draw the line there instead of in front of the original spell?
Why not ? Because the firewood no longer exists.
Instead, suppose you created a block of wood and dropped it in a still pond. Before the ripples dissipate, you dismiss the spell. The ripples continue.
Yes the ripples will continue, but thats because they were produced by the kinetic energy you added, not the firewood itself. The heat from the fire is produced by the oxidation of the wood, it couldn't have existed without the wood. It's a little ridiculous to try to apply physics to the situation since the premise breaks physical laws (and also i know only slightly greater than 0 things about physics).
Essentially in OP's situation, all pieces of the carrot will disappear after 40 hours. If your body happens to have added some of that mass to your body it will disappear as well. I'd advise against using that as starvation rations unless you are fairly sure you'll be getting some non-disappearing food in that 40 hours. Even if you do get some I'd probably count you as sickened for 24 hours (totally by GM fiat, the spell doesn't cover this at all).
EDIT: actually i guess the ripples were also largely a product of the water displacement. so if the wood disappears in the water a vacuum is created and the water makes some kind of weird anti-anti-bubble? im no good at physics simulators in my head beyond normal everyday life lol
ummmm, i assume it all disappears. there is a spell specifically for creating food and water which says the food sticks around after being created (presumably to handle this exact issue) that i'm basing my assumption on.
Well, Create Food and Water is considerably more useful than Minor Creation (carrot). It is a spell level lower, it is on a completely separate spell list, it isn't meant to be open-ended, and only one casting makes a balanced diet. Eating only carrot isn't good for you, and for a balanced meal you need multiple castings.
Someone do the calculations on how big of an endo/exothermic reaction happens when some of the atoms making up these molecules spontaneously disappear.
Now I'm wondering if the mage can survive all the little bits of carrot in his body suddenly vanishing and creating countless miniature vacuums.
Don't eat suspicious food, kids.
Essentially in OP's situation, all pieces of the carrot will disappear after 40 hours. If your body happens to have added some of that mass to your body it will disappear as well. I'd advise against using that as starvation rations unless you are fairly sure you'll be getting some non-disappearing food in that 40 hours. Even if you do get some I'd probably count you as sickened for 24 hours (totally by GM fiat, the spell doesn't cover this at all).
So now, instead of it being a spell that can make food, it's a spell that creates the ultimate ingested poison with no save?
Sounds like an upgrade to me.Whenever you're playing with rules in magic, I strongly suggest you don't go any farther than grade 2 science. The "physics" in these game worlds is the sort that fits into fairy tales and other stories like Lord of the Rings and Arabian Nights.
Rules lawyering based on physics in a fantasy world is madness. I mean if you were to do that, you'd have to ban the Sunder feats because of Mythbusters.
Let the mage feed the party some giant carrots. It's not exactly going to break the game, and it's never a good idea to penalize a player for showing some entertaining resourcefulness. That can ruin a campaign in short order.
^this is hilarious
Thanks for A) necro'ing the thread, and B) cutting out the part of my post that said
It's a little ridiculous to try to apply physics to the situation since the premise breaks physical laws
to call me out for something i wasn't doing in the first place.
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I know this is an old thread but having recently faced the same question myself, here is how I rule it.
1. Physics is the rule, magick the exception even in Golarion, so any effect not modified by magick is ruled by physics unless stated otherwise.
2. Pre digestion, the food is still in the stomach or entering the digestive tract. It takes food 6-8 hours to pass all the way through the small intestine where 90% of digestion takes place. The remaining 10% takes place in the stomach or large intestine. So any creation spell where the food lasts 8 hours will have had its benefits to the body.
3. The spell creates the substance. Energy created by the destruction of the substance (burning wood) is not reclaimed when the spell ends because the spell does not explicitly say that it is reclaimed. Heat is not sucked back out of the environment. Any transformation into energy or a different composition therefore obviates the reclamation of the transformed part of the material. sugars derived from the carbohydrates or starches in the created food do not dissappear nor does any heat energy or other energy caused by the process. This also means that you do not 'destroy' cells partly composed of proteins derived from eating created food.
Technically this means that if you create iron and then use an accelerated process to rust the iron, only the original iron vanishes, not the iron oxide coating. There are probably some obscure ways of abusing this but then this has always been the case in this kind of game.
I think it's assumed that a spell effect ending has no negative impacts on creatures who have used said spell effect for nourishment.
Create water, hero's feast and allfood are spells which have effective durations on them. After which point the consumables vanish and/or revert back to their former state. Yet, none of them state that anything bad happens to creatures who ate said consumables.
I realize this may break the logic of the thing, but it is magic we're talking about. It doesn't have to follow logic. Trying to follow the logic of spells also breaks when you consider the teleport spell and whether the millions of bacteria and other necessary living organisms inside a creature are left behind or not since teleport only transports a limited number of "creatures".
Create Water doesn't have an "effective duration"; it is instantaneous, so it creates real water, not sustained by magic. This does not invalidate your point; just pointing out that that spell isn't part of it.
you are correct that it has a duration of instantaneous and that normally that equates to meaning it's permanent in a way that isn't dispellable (and therefore no duration). However, the spell description adds a duration outside of the spell block.
This water disappears after 1 day if not consumed.
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so, some necromancy here.
thing is. minor creation uses plant matter.
if you make a carrot (a plant) and eat it.... its most definitely in a digestable form.
even when the spell ends, its still plant matter. bio material.
you ate bio material, you just changes... say... grass or raw wheat into a digestable form like carrot.
raw wheat is normally not digestable because of its compact form. the body doesnt use it. however, if wheat becomes carrot and and is consumed then the body pulls the material and uses it. even if this material reverts from a fiber to a starch its still material pulled apart and used.
At best, one would argue that malnurishment becomes an issue but then a counter argument to that is you use varied plant material and not just wheat so thats not actually an issue.
Ultimately, youve basically flavored your salad. that is all.
No, it is not a Transmutation spell, it is a Conjuration (creation) spell.
It creates something from nothing.Look the component row and the absence of a target row:
"Components V, S, M (a tiny piece of matter of the same sort of item you plan to create with minor creation)"
You start with a tiny piece of a carrot and nothing more, nothing is transformed.
You are thinking of Fabricate.
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After 40 hours the carrot would be completely digested and thus most of the atoms comprising it would have left the body or be waiting to do so. The only significant exception would be any fat cells resulting from the meal. Thus, the carrot (or the atoms it was comprised of) disappearing shouldn't have much impact.
With a shorter duration you might miss out on the nutritional value, but not if the food had already been processed and left your system.
Let's just agree not to eat Minor Creation spell effects. I doubt they taste very good anyway.
I hate to support the physics idea when I'm a firm believer in Magic A is Magic A, especially since magic in Pathfinder is very much tied to conceptual definition rather than scientific physics, but... Minor Creation doesn't have any language similar to "This water disappears after 1 day if not consumed" from Create Water. Therefore, by RAW, I wouldn't eat the funny magic carrots just to be on the safe side.