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First from a risk reward perspective the new guided added the ability to make Day job checks when playing a pre-gen.
Very few pregens actually have a skill that would allow them to make a Day Job, however. And even less are at all optimized in that skill.
Lem and perform is about as good as it gets :-)
The other cumulative advantage of playing a pregen is that you get all of those free consumables. Chances of death and condition costs are a part of those consumables. Which is part of the etiquette of being responsible for your own healing. Viewed from that angle the change introduces a more comparable situation in terms of long term resource acquisition and power between playing pre-gens vs. a homemade character. I don't know that that balances the other portions, but it's worth considering.
The free healing is nice but its really no biggy. In non Core my first CLW usually lasts me through most or all of my career. In Core, its a little worse and I think my level 12 went through a little more than 2 wands.
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guided added the ability to make Day job checks when playing a pre-gen. Now I don't think Day job checks are game breaking one way or the other, but with a modest investment it does add up to a nice chunk of gold by the end of a characters lifetime.
With the right build yes, but these are pregens, there's no "investment" to be made. So the argument isn't exactly on-task.
That said, unless you're built for it as a free ability (alchemists, gunslingers, etc.), in most cases the 750 = 2pp exchange rate is worth more to you as pp than it is to be able to make day job checks. Day jobs are fun, and thematic, but they are usually the least optimal choice.
The other cumulative advantage of playing a pregen is that you get all of those free consumables. Chances of death and condition costs are a part of those consumables. Which is part of the etiquette of being responsible for your own healing. Viewed from that angle the change introduces a more comparable situation in terms of long term resource acquisition and power between playing pre-gens vs. a homemade character. I don't know that that balances the other portions, but it's worth considering.
Kyra's consumables usually help everybody else, not herself (and let's be honest, 50%+ of the pregen play is kyra). The idea that most players will put this on a fresh 0xp character only bolsters this as a problem, as they're likely to blow through everything on the rest of the party, not themselves, therefore increasing the currently non-existent abuse. As for the rest, it's a possibility, but it again swings the direction Paul Jackson is talking about, which in turn makes all of it kind of moot anyway. All reward, with little care for the outcome of the pregen, for no risk will become the norm.
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I hope that they simply make a rule saying. If you have a character of X level you can't play a pregen. That would solidify things nicely.
Except when it doesn't. For example, I have a level 10 PC currently playing a play-by-post game and that is my only PC between levels 7 and 10. If I travel to my (not so) local game store, and they decided to switch to a 7-11 adventure, with this rule in place I'd be forced to turn around and go home. If you make an exception for characters in an ongoing pbp, suddenly everyone who wants to play a pregen will claim to have their PCs tied up in an ongoing pbp game.
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In my experience the majority of pregen deaths I have seen are when the GM is playing the pregen in a 3 player table. We had an ongoing joke at my last location about Kyra Clone #x every time we had to use her.
I have never seen anyone "Abuse" the system by playing a pregen.
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Sin's issues sound more the cause of disruptive, abusive players than anything else to me, and this rule and most rules won't stop those people, even if it does slow them down. I think that this rule hurts newer players and people with less system mastery who can't just pick up a sheet and know how to play it. And I don't think the campaign has ever been in a place where it wants to disadvantage those people.
I've never had an issue with the type of pregen abuse this seems to attempt to address as an organizer for the past couple years. For most people it seems like this addresses a problem that doesn't exist.
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I've only really skimmed through so I haven't read everything thing, but it seems that everyone is touching on disruptive players and problems for new players. I feel like no one has address the issue that has been bothering me about the old pregen rule and that's the chips on the table.
Death is a part of the game and every scenario we play we risk our character (crits happen). Some scenarios more then others and that applies to both pregen only and regular scenarios. Allowing players to choose the character that gets the reward after the scenario gives them an unfair advatange over a regular player.
Lets say two players want to play Bonekeep. Player A thinks to himself Hey that looks like a real challenge and would be a great game for my Alchemist to try. While player B thinks Hey I heard there was some really nice stuff for my wizard on my chronicle sheet, but I don't have enough for a res. I'll just play a pregen.
If both players survive Player A's Alchemist and Player B's Wizard both get the chronicle. Now if both characters day Player A's Alchemist is dead and Player B gets to say "Wait! I'll put that one on character -15." If this was a gambling table both players would have placed their bets then when the results are in and they win both players would get the same reward. If they both lost Player A loses his bet while Player B gets to pick his up and walk away from the table.
With this new rule with pregens everyone has to place their chips down at the beginning and let the dice roll, no takesee backsees. Does it keep you from applying it a brand new no, but with a small bid comes a small reward.
Does this screw over new players? To me not really, because they still have the option to pick a brand new character to apply it to. Or they can bet higher and play with one of their established characters. Up to them and that's what makes it fun.
Does this stop someone from playing a pregen specifically to tank the party for their own amusement? Not at all that should be handled by the GM and or local leadership if needed.
Does this even out the risk to reward for all players and eliminate a loop hole. Absolutely so place your bets, roll the dice and have fun!
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Allowing players to choose the character that gets the reward after the scenario gives them an unfair advatange over a regular player.As far as I understand it, PFS is not a competition between players. I could care less what another player does or does not do with pregens or their own characters.
I don't mind when one of my characters dies in a scenario while I am playing the character, but I would really dislike having one of my players die when playing someone else's character, i.e. a pregen, in a scenario.
Then apply it to a new character at the start of the game. You still get to play and get a reward, but you don't lose a character because of a pregen. If you want the reward for that game on a specific character then you'll have to risk the character like everyone else does on every scenario. My point is the choice is still yours. You just don't get a free get out of death free card just because you choose a pregen.
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Then apply it to a new character at the start of the game. You still get to play and get a reward, but you don't lose a character because of a pregen. If you want the reward for that game on a specific character then you'll have to risk the character like everyone else does on every scenario. My point is the choice is still yours. You just don't get a free get out of death free card just because you choose a pregen.Allowing players to choose the character that gets the reward after the scenario gives them an unfair advatange over a regular player.As far as I understand it, PFS is not a competition between players. I could care less what another player does or does not do with pregens or their own characters.
I don't mind when one of my characters dies in a scenario while I am playing the character, but I would really dislike having one of my players die when playing someone else's character, i.e. a pregen, in a scenario.
What's your perspective on scenarios that require you to play pregens Kysh?
Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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Folks! I have no inside track & sadly the 7,500 mile round trip to Indianapolis means I am far away from Gencon again this year. I can't help but notice that the rules are clearly dealing with the Iconics. (As per pg 8 below)
So I would hang fire on getting too concerned about the pregens used in exclusives. One to watch this space for.
W
PREGENERATED CHARACTERS
If you don’t have time to create a new character or simply wish to try out a new character class, you can use a pregenerated character. The Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild offers pregenerated characters based on the Pathfinder RPG’s iconic characters, available at paizo.com/communityuse/package or from your local event coordinator. When using a pregenerated character in this way, the player applies the adventure’s credit (gp, Prestige Points, etc.) to one of her Roleplaying Guild characters. The following rules apply when playing pregenerated characters.
Making Character Choices: Before the game, make the following choices about your character.
• Choose one of the pregenerated characters available in
Community Use Package: Path nder Society Pregenerated
Characters at paizo.com/communityuse/package.
• You must choose to which of your characters the credit will be applied at the beginning of the adventure. Credit from a 1st-level pregenerated character can be applied only to a 1st-level character. Credit for playing higher- level pregenerated characters must be applied to a Roleplaying Guild character of a lower level than the
pregenerated character or to a newly created character.
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I know a guy that only played pregens, he did not care about the credit in the slightest. He would always offer up to sacrifice his character for the group or even individuals.
That was the only player i ever saw abuse the pregen rule, and this rule change would not fix it.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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A practical element of the new rule has been mentioned but then lost in the shuffle:
If I want to play an iconic pre-gen and assign the XP to my 4th-level rogue, I'll need to bring the rogue's most recent Chronicle sheet to the game, since the iconic's death will require me to spend 2000 gp.
And there's another element that hasn't been mentioned.
If my 4th-level rogue PC has 20 PP, but doesn't have 2000 gp, for whatever reason, she's dead. Even though she could pay for her own raising entirely.
And there's another rules change that nobody's commented upon.
I can no longer play a 4th-level pre-gen and assign the experience to my 4th-level rogue.
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What's your perspective on scenarios that require you to play pregens Kysh?Then apply it to a new character at the start of the game. You still get to play and get a reward, but you don't lose a character because of a pregen. If you want the reward for that game on a specific character then you'll have to risk the character like everyone else does on every scenario. My point is the choice is still yours. You just don't get a free get out of death free card just because you choose a pregen.Allowing players to choose the character that gets the reward after the scenario gives them an unfair advatange over a regular player.As far as I understand it, PFS is not a competition between players. I could care less what another player does or does not do with pregens or their own characters.
I don't mind when one of my characters dies in a scenario while I am playing the character, but I would really dislike having one of my players die when playing someone else's character, i.e. a pregen, in a scenario.
I still believe the character choice should be made at the beginning before the results of the scenario have been established. Though I am not opposed to reduced penalties for dealing with character death like the ones used in the We Be Goblins series, but there should always be some risk involved.
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A practical element of the new rule has been mentioned but then lost in the shuffle:
If I want to play an iconic pre-gen and assign the XP to my 4th-level rogue, I'll need to bring the rogue's most recent Chronicle sheet to the game, since the iconic's death will require me to spend 2000 gp.
And there's another element that hasn't been mentioned.
If my 4th-level rogue PC has 20 PP, but doesn't have 2000 gp, for whatever reason, she's dead. Even though she could pay for her own raising entirely.
And there's another rules change that nobody's commented upon.
I can no longer play a 4th-level pre-gen and assign the experience to my 4th-level rogue.
This seems like the biggest problem, to me.
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If I want to play a [7th level] iconic pre-gen and assign the XP to my 4th-level rogue, I'll need to bring the rogue's most recent Chronicle sheet to the game, since the iconic's death will require me to spend 2000 gp.
The expenditure of 2000 gp can be notated on the pre-gen chronicle sheet. There's no particular need to have the last sheet there.
If my 4th-level rogue PC has 20 PP, but doesn't have 2000 gp, for whatever reason, she's dead. Even though she could pay for her own raising entirely.
Not at all. You have to pay 2000 gp (for a 7th level pregen, 1000 for 4th) before beginning to sell off the pregens gear. If you have other methods to come back, that's not an issue.
I can no longer play a 4th-level pre-gen and assign the experience to my 4th-level rogue.
That is not a change, from what I recall.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I can no longer play a 4th-level pre-gen and assign the experience to my 4th-level rogue.
Agreed, that is not a change. But IIRC the old rules were slightly ambiguous, leading some to think you could do that. Which is why the language was cleaned up to make it clear that you could not.
If you play a 1st-level pregenerated character, you
can apply the credit to a newly created character of
your very own. If you play a non-1st-level pregenerated
character, you choose one of your characters to assign
the chronicle to at the end of adventure, and then apply
the credit to your character as soon as she reaches the
level of the pregenerated character played. You may not
assign a Chronicle sheet earned with a pregenerated
character to a character that was already at the level
of the pregenerated character or higher.
Some people kept thinking
"cannot apply to a character at the pregen level or higher" meant "can apply to a character at the pregen level or lower."
It doesn't. It means "can apply to a character lower than the pregen level."
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I'm not sure that last one is a change.I can no longer play a 4th-level pre-gen and assign the experience to my 4th-level rogue.
It isn't.
You may not apply a Chronicle sheet earned with a pregenerated character to a character that was already at the level of the pregenerated character or higher
That's been the rule since 2013. Before then, in 2012, we had
If you play a non-1st-level pregenerated character, you can apply the credit to your character as soon as she reaches the level of the pregenerated character played.
That's not as explicit as the wording in Guide V5.0, but it at least suggests that as the chronicle is to be applied once the character reaches the level of the pregen played, the character can't already be at that level.
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If I want to play a [7th level] iconic pre-gen and assign the XP to my 4th-level rogue, I'll need to bring the rogue's most recent Chronicle sheet to the game, since the iconic's death will require me to spend 2000 gp.The expenditure of 2000 gp can be notated on the pre-gen chronicle sheet. There's no particular need to have the last sheet
I think you do though. For instance, I turn up to a con and the only available tabe one slot is a 7-11, for which I have no characters in tier. I decide to apply the chronicle to my Lvl 2 character (he'll get to 7 eventually and I'll apply the sheet then.)
The pregen dies.
Is my character,
1. Permanently dead, because he has neither the gold nor PP to afford a Raise right now, and I am not applying the chronicle now so can't use the gold it grants?
Or
2. Fine now, but going to drop dead in 2025 when I finally play him up to 7th and apply the chronicle?
If the first then you do need the rogue's chronicles with you.
(This happened playing Serpent's Ire a few weeks ago, so is not entirely theoretical.)
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This keeps getting repeated, and it's making me twitch.
Since you must assign credit to a character that is of lower level than the Pregen, it is impossible to spend ANY of that character's wealth (or Prestige) on removing conditions (including death).
Ergo, the only available course of action is to obtain that gold via 1) party contributions, 2) selling the NPC's gear, and/or 3) using gold that would be obtained from that scenario's Chronicle Sheet.
Can we please quit repeating that we need to spend PC wealth? I realize that's what's printed in the Guide, but when you spend 7 seconds thinking about it you have to realize it's a typo (or at the least a poorly thought out and unfeasible idea).
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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This keeps getting repeated, and it's making me twitch.
Since you must assign credit to a character that is of lower level than the Pregen, it is impossible to spend ANY of that character's wealth (or Prestige) on removing conditions (including death).
Why? I've done this before and Im trying to think of anything that would prevent it.
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This keeps getting repeated, and it's making me twitch.
Since you must assign credit to a character that is of lower level than the Pregen, it is impossible to spend ANY of that character's wealth (or Prestige) on removing conditions (including death).
Ergo, the only available course of action is to obtain that gold via 1) party contributions, 2) selling the NPC's gear, and/or 3) using gold that would be obtained from that scenario's Chronicle Sheet.
Can we please quit repeating that we need to spend PC wealth? I realize that's what's printed in the Guide, but when you spend 7 seconds thinking about it you have to realize it's a typo (or at the least a poorly thought out and unfeasible idea).
Sorry, but it's listed. If you pregen a 7th, make sure the character you are assigning it to has 2k gold available. If not and you die on the first encounter you're dead. No buying back fully with pregen wealth.
Also it'd be a table of suckers to pay in to bring a pregen back to life. Also if you have found no gold in the scenario at the time of death, again dead.
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Since you must assign credit to a character that is of lower level than the Pregen, it is impossible to spend ANY of that character's wealth (or Prestige) on removing conditions (including death).Why? I've done this before and Im trying to think of anything that would prevent it.
Please explain how.
This 7th level Chronicle isn't getting added to your stack; it's being placed on hold until your character reaches 7th level.
There is no way to access the gold of your level 1-6 character.
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Nefreet, by the language included, you have to clear the condition immediately, and can use funds from the character itself. " The player can use the pregenerated character’s funds—including selling her gear at half price—to pay for these spellcasting services. In addition, the player can contribute the associated Roleplaying Guild character’s resources (gp and Prestige Points) to this end."
Still, the chronicle sheet alone will provide enough gp an overwhelming percentage of the time to meet the 1k/2k requirement. An early TPK is about the only possible situation where it wouldn't. For even those rare situations, even a L.2-3 can probably scrape up the difference if the rest of the group isn't willing.
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Nefreet, by the language included, you have to clear the condition immediately, and can use funds from the character itself. " The player can use the pregenerated character’s funds—including selling her gear at half price—to pay for these spellcasting services. In addition, the player can contribute the associated Roleplaying Guild character’s resources (gp and Prestige Points) to this end."
Still, the chronicle sheet alone will provide enough gp an overwhelming percentage of the time to meet the 1k/2k requirement. An early TPK is about the only possible situation where it wouldn't. For even those rare situations, even a L.2-3 can probably scrape up the difference if the rest of the group isn't willing.
I understand what Nefreet is saying, at least I think. I'm sure Nefreet will correct me if I misunderstood. The Chronicle sheet obtained by playing the level 7 pregen isn't applied to your character yet. It is in limbo and essentially non-existent until your own character hits 7th level and you apply it to your character. Therefore, you can't utilize the gold from the Chronicle to clear conditions because it is in the limbo state until actually applied. Having to clear the condition with a 1-3 level character, you absolutely aren't going to have enough gold or prestige to clear the condition.
If you advise that you can use the gold to clear conditions, then you are advising the Chronicle is available for use. If that the case, then you should theoretically be able to purchase items and use boons from the Chronicle as well. You can't use part of what is given on the Chronicle to clear conditions and not have access to the other parts of the Chronicle. At least that is how I am interpreting it.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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To follow up on Nefreets point.
We are in a scenario. The scenario has just begun. I want to go buy a potion of remove disease. The character I am putting this on has the 750 gp needed.
Can I buy a potion of remove disease? No, I only have the money listed on the pregen sheet, not on the character I am assigning it to.
Later on, I have failed my fort save, and am now diseased. We have already established that I cannot buy a remove disease using my character's gold, so if I cannot spend scenario gold, I am effectively dead.
If you advise that you can use the gold to clear conditions, then you are advising the Chronicle is available for use. If that the case, then you should theoretically be able to purchase items and use boons from the Chronicle as well. You can't use part of what is given on the Chronicle to clear conditions and not have access to the other parts of the Chronicle. At least that is how I am interpreting it.
No, we are advising that the things on the chronicle sheet are available for ues within that scenario which they are. For example, if I am playing a pregen, and we find a +2 long sword, I can use it within the scenario. Once we leave the scenario, they are locked. But if we leave the scenario, and my conditions are not cleared, I am dead anyway. So the only time I can't use them, is when it is too late to use them.
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Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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Conceptually it is pretty clear that we're moving from a situation where playing an iconic meant your character could only gain to one where there is some risk. It means that if there is a post scenario condition that applies to the iconic there will be a cost to the linked PC. It is clear that that cost scales a bit depending on the level of iconic.
Exactly how that will look mechanically is currently less clear. I am comfortable it won't stay that way for long.
W
I would think the gold doesn't come from that scenario. It is entirely possible to just die in the first combat and earn nothing and you must still pay the gold.
If the rest of the party succeeds in the task, the gold is still earned. If not, than it would be the same scenario if you were playing your own character, and that character had died in the first combat.
The purpose of playing pregens is not to avoid the meaningful possibilities of risk and loss which what people are trying to do in making an ex post facto assignment change.
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So frustrating and confusing. I think I will borrow a line from the movie War Games if a pregen is involved. "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. "Thanks for the reply, I guess.This is what I was advocating, but I will warn you that you may miss out on a lot of interesting pretend scenarios.
Time is valuable. I'm ok with "risking" having to miss out.
Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage
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So new PFS player here chiming in on how this will impact me.
So the situation I am in is I signed up for a mini-Con in early September that I am traveling a few thousand miles to get to. Over the three days I am there I will have to play a Pregen in 4 scenarios (2 of the 4 are Serpent's Ire and Serpent's Rise, and the are the last two scenarios i am playing in, in that order).
My only character is just short of being able to playing one of the scenarios. So now I have to choose a Iconic Pregen 4, 7 and use the Pregens for the Serpents Scenarios to play.
I decided to go to this mini-Con to level up my character to 'catch up" with the players in my local game. So now i am if i wipe with any of the 3 pregens lvl 7+ I loose my character due to most probaly not having enough Gp to cover a 2000 gp cost and am regulated to GMing in my local games or asking my local group to roll new characters.
When I signed up for the games it was explained it would not be a determent to my character I could assing a failure to a -whoever. The rules have now changed. Now the very reason for me traveling out of state to attend a gaming weekend looks foolish and overly risky.
Pregens allow people access to a game they would otherwise not attend because of being new or wanting to play with friends (or in my case being very enthusiastic about PFS to take the time of work and willingly travel hours by plane to gain access to additional chances to play).
It seems some have played with players that were disruptive or sabotaging play. I think that should be handled in the context already establish in the rules of the guide. Is trying to put road blocks in the way of new and enthusiastic players the approach we want to foster a growing game environment?
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You have a Rogue-2, and a Barbarian-1?
The Serpent's scenarios are not a part of this discussion. As quoted earlier, this only concerns playing one of the Iconics (which the Serpent's Pregens are not).
So outside of those, you'll be playing a 4th level Pregen, and a 7th level Pregen?
You should be fine when playing the 7th level Pregen. You'll earn enough gold on that Chronicle, and have enough gear to sell, to cover a Raise Dead. Should your party fall to an early TPK, or should you need something too expensive (such as True Resurrection), then it's likely you wouldn't have been able to survive playing your actual character anyways. Sometimes characters die.
So we're left with the game where you're playing a 4th level Pregen. That could legitimately, easily result in a character death. You likely won't have enough money from either the Chronicle or your gear to cover a basic Raise Dead.
If that risk is too great for you, then skip that game (or assign the credit to a level 1 character). The Chronicle wouldn't have levelled your Character anyways, so there's no real loss other than you sitting out a session.
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If that risk is too great for you, then skip that game (or assign the credit to a level 1 character). The Chronicle wouldn't have levelled your Character anyways, so there's no real loss other than you sitting out a session.
It seems some have played with players that were disruptive or sabotaging play. I think that should be handled in the context already establish in the rules of the guide. Is trying to put road blocks in the way of new and enthusiastic players the approach we want to foster a growing game environment?
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Another point I think that may not have yet come up: playing PreGens so that your PC doesn't overshadow the party, especially if you find yourself with a less experienced GM or group of players. I've had several occasions where I've pondered if I should be playing a pre gen with groups of newer players or GMs rather than a character that might grossly overshadow the other PCs or even the scenario.
There have been numerous threads about overpowered PCs and frustrated GMs (especially before Core &/or 5E made their appearance) and one of the few things a player who didn't want to make a group of new players feel ineffective had as an option was to play a Pre Gen to assist those players and / or GM in finding their way through. This change effectively removes that as a tolerable option.
I also think you may find an upsurge in "designated first level characters" (ie characters people build who are custom-built for 1st level play) for those who don't want to risk a lower level character death and find the available Iconic Pre Gens too underwhelming - I imagine the "best 1st level characters" threads will have a resurgence shortly.
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Contributor
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I believe it is technically illegal to play a pregen when you have an in-tier character to play. Nevertheless, I agree with you and have personally experienced just the situation you describe.
Pre-Season 8, it was legal - you just couldn't apply the Chronicle to a character in-tier.
Checking the new Guide, it remains legal. ^_^
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How would people feel if it were changed to...
To assist a new player with a character 3rd level or less that may have significant trouble paying the gold or become highly nerfed due to lack of equipment and nigh unplayable, that at the GMs discretion you can reapply to an unused number.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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How would people feel if it were changed to...
To assist a new player with a character 3rd level or less that may have significant trouble paying the gold or become highly nerfed due to lack of equipment and nigh unplayable, that at the GMs discretion you can reapply to an unused number.
I like the concept, but would want to word smith it a bit.
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I like the concept, but would want to word smith it a bit.How would people feel if it were changed to...
To assist a new player with a character 3rd level or less that may have significant trouble paying the gold or become highly nerfed due to lack of equipment and nigh unplayable, that at the GMs discretion you can reapply to an unused number.
Absolutely. This was just a 30 second toss out from my phone while playing in convoy Con as driving back from Gen Con
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Is there a reason that "GM Discretion" needs to be involved?
I suggest setting a threshold based on potential wealth (not "actual" wealth, since some people spend money on non-permanent items, don't maximize day jobs, etc.)
Something like "If the Chronicle is assigned to a PC of level 3 or lower and the pre-gen dies, the character credit may be reassigned to a new character number."
That way, everyone knows for sure what the situation is before starting the game.