Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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The boards may not be representative of the general player base, but I think they are representative of the population of VO's. In general, if you're here, it's because you're passionate about PFS and how it's organized.
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So as a librarian I've been trying to search these boards for examples of complaints about pregen abuse.
The most common thing I've found is some complaints on here about how pregens were used in the Bonekeep series. Some people have felt that people using pregens endangered the whole group by bringing subpar characters who would not face the consequences. And I can see this -- Bonekeep is purported to be lethal. Some players likely decided to play pregens to negate personal risk, which would be resented by the rest of the table.
Is this the behavior we're trying to change? If so, why not just ban pregens from hard mode scenarios instead? The new rule still allows abuse from those who would just assign the chronicle to a new number. Maybe disallowing pregens from Bonekeep, and providing better tips for discussing with venues about why a problem player must be banned, is what we really need to solve this issue.
Hmm
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I was actually under the impression you weren't allowed to play Bonekeep with pregens. I guess a reason to do so is if you don't like the aura of "we're going to screw you" that's around Bonekeep. Though you have to wonder why you'd even play the scenario if you dislike that so much.
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I was actually under the impression you weren't allowed to play Bonekeep with pregens. I guess a reason to do so is if you don't like the aura of "we're going to screw you" that's around Bonekeep. Though you have to wonder why you'd even play the scenario if you dislike that so much.
Not saying that THIS would EVER happen at a convention, of course...
Newer Player: "Okay, I'm signed up for The Confirmation as a 'standby'. "
Newer Mustering Person: "Unfortunately, that's full. However, I've got a seat over here at this thing called 'Bonekeep'. It won't go off unless they get another player. It's sort of tough, but we can get you a pregen for it since you don't have anything in range. Want to give it a shot?"
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I'm not planning on ever playing Bonekeep. It's not why I'm in PFS. But I was wondering if Bonekeep was the thing that caused them to push this rule.
If people are already currently not allowed to play pregens in Bonekeep-type scenarios, then I'm stumped about the pregen abuse issue.
Hmm
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Sorry HMM. It happens. But you can't call people out on the forums about it. Or say much of anything to address system abuse, because if you do, your post gets deleted.
It's there, it happens. But being passionate about trying to stop it, only gets you silenced.
Thank God I'm not a VO, so I can just deal with it at tables I run and let people run and cry to the folks in charge of my area about how I made them play by the rules.
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I'm not sure that's right Sin. I've seen plenty of complaints about things, when done respectfully and not calling out specific people, not get deleted.
When you see a situation that is abuniversal and could be replicated, then the best course of action is to post about the issue at hand instead of the player (s) or GM.
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It's there, it happens. But being passionate about trying to stop it, only gets you silenced.
Passion isn't the problem. Plenty of people manage to be passionate about the state of the campaign and where they think it should go without having their posts deleted. If you do not want your posts deleted, I recommend taking after those successes rather than the methods that led to deleted posts.
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I'm not seeing anyone in this thread complaining of the widespread abuse that this is supposed to address.
Where are those people?
There is one person (SinsofAsmodeus, I believe) who said that he has seen abuse.
I'll accept that there IS abuse but it seems clear that it is not common as we now have LOTS of people from LOTS of areas who have never seen any.
One person mentioned the abuse, and another mentioned that their venue disallowed not seating problematic players.
I honestly think that the second part is a bigger contributor because it keeps the problem from being handled at the local level.
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I'm not convinced it creates more problems than it solves.
Problems it solves:
-Using a pregen as a buffer for your own character.
-Using a pregen to chronicle fish.
-Using a pregen to conserve your own consumables.
Problems it creates:
More level 1 characters?
Problems it doesn't touch:
Players who will troll. They assign their dead credit to a level 1 before, instead of after.
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I'm not convinced it creates more problems than it solves.
Problems it solves:
-Using a pregen as a buffer for your own character.
-Using a pregen to chronicle fish.
-Using a pregen to conserve your own consumables.Problems it creates:
More level 1 characters?Problems it doesn't touch:
Players who will troll. They assign their dead credit to a level 1 before, instead of after.
Problems it creates (as has been pointed out by others):
Not using a pregen to round out a party as it isn't as equipped as their own PC--it might provide a different skill set that is simply needed but isn't as survivable. Now when people show up and there are 4 rogues in an elemental-themed scenario, when previously one of them might switched out for a heavy hitter such as Oloch or Amiri. Now they'll be more likely to stay as what they originally brought because they have their own breath of life scroll, or have a higher AC, or just simply don't know the pregens well enough to feel comfortable enough to ensure their own survival--even though that would better the table overall.|
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(Aside: I don't see any rules about the use of pregens in Bonekeep. I've played it at Paizocon with a V-C GMing at a table that was more than half pre-gens. I was the sole survivor, dragged out unconscious and bleeding out by someone else's goat. Best game ever. But I digress...)
Problems it creates (continued):
* More level 1 characters? - yes... and try building a Lodge from scratch when half the group is stuck building on a dozen level 1 characters instead of being able to cross the divide to 5-9.
* New players who have a new PC of their own, but still have to play a pregen because the only game is out of tier, then losing their own PC because of pregen death (along with the several Chronicles that go with it). (Or the alternate, assigning credit to a new number and having two level 1 PC's--> leading to even more level 1 characters.)
The effect on new players of this rule should be enough on its own to have things revisited or clarified.
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(Aside: I don't see any rules about the use of pregens in Bonekeep. I've played it at Paizocon with a V-C GMing at a table that was more than half pre-gens. I was the sole survivor, dragged out unconscious and bleeding out by someone else's goat. Best game ever. But I digress...)
Problems it creates (continued):
* More level 1 characters? - yes... and try building a Lodge from scratch when half the group is stuck building on a dozen level 1 characters instead of being able to cross the divide to 5-9.
* New players who have a new PC of their own, but still have to play a pregen because the only game is out of tier, then losing their own PC because of pregen death (along with the several Chronicles that go with it). (Or the alternate, assigning credit to a new number and having two level 1 PC's--> leading to even more level 1 characters.)
The effect on new players of this rule should be enough on its own to have things revisited or clarified.
One thing that I don't think is appreciated is that a large number of PFS players neither have nor want multiple characters. They have *their* character, and that is the only character they will play until it levels up too high to play anymore. This probably applies to about half the players we have locally.
They will always assign pregen credit to their character. If it dies, killing their character, there is a good chance they will just walk away.
These are casual players and you won't really see them on the boards, but they're the difference between having game days with four tables and having game days with two tables.
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I don't play the iconic pregens, so I don't really have an opinion on this issue. I do, however, expect to play those special scenarios that employ special pregens. My only wish is to understand the new rules for pregen death when I sit down at one of those tables or to have a GM who does.
Right now, I don't. And it's possible my GM wouldn't, either.
When a rule is this confusing, something is either wrong with the rule or wrong with it's wording.
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(Aside: I don't see any rules about the use of pregens in Bonekeep. I've played it at Paizocon with a V-C GMing at a table that was more than half pre-gens. I was the sole survivor, dragged out unconscious and bleeding out by someone else's goat. Best game ever. But I digress...)
Problems it creates (continued):
* More level 1 characters? - yes... and try building a Lodge from scratch when half the group is stuck building on a dozen level 1 characters instead of being able to cross the divide to 5-9.
* New players who have a new PC of their own, but still have to play a pregen because the only game is out of tier, then losing their own PC because of pregen death (along with the several Chronicles that go with it). (Or the alternate, assigning credit to a new number and having two level 1 PC's--> leading to even more level 1 characters.)
The effect on new players of this rule should be enough on its own to have things revisited or clarified.
One thing that I don't think is appreciated is that a large number of PFS players neither have nor want multiple characters. They have *their* character, and that is the only character they will play until it levels up too high to play anymore. This probably applies to about half the players we have locally.
They will always assign pregen credit to their character. If it dies, killing their character, there is a good chance they will just walk away.
These are casual players and you won't really see them on the boards, but they're the difference between having game days with four tables and having game days with two tables.
Are your GMs not telling them their options?
"Ïf you play a pregen, you can apply it to a character you currently have, granting it the bonuses as if you played, but also any risks, up to and including character death. Alternatively, you could apply it to a different character number; with your main character inheriting neither the risk nor the benefit."
People walk away if you are disingenuous. If you are honest, and up front with them, they will accept the rules.
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I'm not sure I've got anything new to add, but after making it through the entire thread I wanted to throw a couple thoughts out there.
1: New players - I may have walked away from PFS if the current rule was in-place when I started. I played two sessions at local cons and then started playing in earnest a couple years later. Most of my early sessions at my FLGS were as Valeros 7. My -2 completely skipped seventh level when he made it there a year or so later. I was joining an established, 1-2 game per week store. I wouldn't have been able to play much in my first month or two without pregens. The tables were already scheduled well before I showed up.
With this rule, I would have been hesitant to play and felt like the campaign discourages new players. Had I lost Gimral, I might have walked away and opened the play-test of 5th edition that was sitting in my email.
2: The unique WBG series - I've GMed parts 1-3 something like 11 times. I like part 1 because I can encourage players to spend 4-5 hours playing a completely different game than they are used to.
An example is one of the most RP-focused, detailed character creators in our area. He always has detailed backstories and complex motivations worked out for every character. He was very against playing WBG but gave it a try one night because a table fell through. He's since talked others into giving it a try. Playing an evil, malicious back-stabbing little monster was a fun diversion. These need to keep there special rules for conditions.
3: Required pregen scenarios - These need to have an exception to the base rules. A player can't decide to play their own character and can't really cherry-pick a character they are comfortable with. In fact, since they often have unique, very flavorful boons, I advocate not selecting which PC to apply them to until you see the chronicle. The flavor will likely either mesh perfectly with a PC or be completely useless and ignored. Forcing players to pre-choose into one of those is cruel.
A recent non-pregen, scenario has a boon that is perfect for a Hellknight PC. My local GM subtly steered me to my HK because he knew I'd love the boon for him. It was even better because the PC was a thematic fit for the scenario. The nature of the pregen-only scenarios and the fact that they tend to be played at cons makes this sort of thing unlikely.
A further example: In the recent Aspis pregen-only special,
My 2 cp.
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I'm not convinced it creates more problems than it solves.
Problems it solves:
-Using a pregen as a buffer for your own character.
-Using a pregen to chronicle fish.
-Using a pregen to conserve your own consumables.Problems it creates:
More level 1 characters?Problems it doesn't touch:
Players who will troll. They assign their dead credit to a level 1 before, instead of after.Problems it creates (as has been pointed out by others):
Not using a pregen to round out a party as it isn't as equipped as their own PC--it might provide a different skill set that is simply needed but isn't as survivable. Now when people show up and there are 4 rogues in an elemental-themed scenario, when previously one of them might switched out for a heavy hitter such as Oloch or Amiri. Now they'll be more likely to stay as what they originally brought because they have their own breath of life scroll, or have a higher AC, or just simply don't know the pregens well enough to feel comfortable enough to ensure their own survival--even though that would better the table overall.
Nothing in the new rules prevents this switch from happening.
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In addition, will this push more GMs to be a bit more 'lenient' on pregens when things come to a 'table situation call'?
Knowing that the pregen has an additional cost may make some folks push harder subconsciously to 'make them pay their dues' OR wanting to get 'fair' treatment themselves they 'pull back' some?
Still haven't seen the volumes detailing the alleged abuse of the system that brought this to creation, and the little paranoid section of my brain I try not to listen to most of the time is wondering if this is a backlash due to the 'tier' question I had about playing an iconic earlier in the year (which has been clarified in the guide).
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I'm not convinced it creates more problems than it solves.
Problems it solves:
-Using a pregen as a buffer for your own character.
-Using a pregen to chronicle fish.
-Using a pregen to conserve your own consumables.Problems it creates:
More level 1 characters?Problems it doesn't touch:
Players who will troll. They assign their dead credit to a level 1 before, instead of after.
Except as far as all but one person have stated in this thread, the 3 problems you outlined aren't problems. I'd like to see numbers on the abuse that's happening. I'll acquiesce to this rule while it exists as I would any rule, although hopefully it gets rewritten to something more clear, but I don't agree with it's necessity. I've only ever played pregens when I had to. I won't be particularly affected by the bad side of this either, as outside of certain scenarios I don't really touch pregens anymore, but I know people who definitely could be, and in my play experience this change only adds problems and fixes none.
But more than that I have problems with how unclear it is on if it affects all pregens and how you adjucate the death of a pregen, for now I'd lean towards Nefreet's interpretation that it has to be dealt with the chronicle and whatever your pregen has on them. It's just a bad rule as written currently.
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(Aside: I don't see any rules about the use of pregens in Bonekeep. I've played it at Paizocon with a V-C GMing at a table that was more than half pre-gens. I was the sole survivor, dragged out unconscious and bleeding out by someone else's goat. Best game ever. But I digress...)
Problems it creates (continued):
* More level 1 characters? - yes... and try building a Lodge from scratch when half the group is stuck building on a dozen level 1 characters instead of being able to cross the divide to 5-9.
* New players who have a new PC of their own, but still have to play a pregen because the only game is out of tier, then losing their own PC because of pregen death (along with the several Chronicles that go with it). (Or the alternate, assigning credit to a new number and having two level 1 PC's--> leading to even more level 1 characters.)
The effect on new players of this rule should be enough on its own to have things revisited or clarified.
One thing that I don't think is appreciated is that a large number of PFS players neither have nor want multiple characters. They have *their* character, and that is the only character they will play until it levels up too high to play anymore. This probably applies to about half the players we have locally.
They will always assign pregen credit to their character. If it dies, killing their character, there is a good chance they will just walk away.
These are casual players and you won't really see them on the boards, but they're the difference between having game days with four tables and having game days with two tables.
Are your GMs not telling them their options?
"Ïf you play a pregen, you can apply it to a character you currently have, granting it the bonuses as if you played, but also any risks, up to and including character death. Alternatively, you could apply it to a different character number; with your main character inheriting neither the risk nor the benefit."...
You don't understand my point. Here are the outcomes under the new rules:
Assign pregen to main character, character lives: POSITIVE, met PFS expectations
Assign pregen to main character, character dies: NEGATIVE, my character is dead
Assign pregen to new character, character dies: NEUTRAL, hopefully I'll do better next time
Assign pregen to new character, character live so: NEGATIVE, "I have to make a new character? Why would I want to do that? But I can keep all their paperwork together right? How do I remember which character played which scenario?
I overstate, but just a little bit.
One thing that might be a bit of an outlier about our group locally is that fully half (edit: eh, closer to 40%) of our regular players are parents gaming with their children. So keeping groups of three where all of their characters are at the same level is a huge priority -- shunting credit off to an additional character is to be avoided at all costs. Also in these cases there is usually one parent keeping track of paperwork for all three of them, which is already a chore.
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All of it. If you're afraid of losing your character, you now have to apply a pregen to a level 1. Why is this an issue?I take it you didn't bother to read this thread?
The new solution seems fine. You play an iconic pregen, if you're afraid of risk, assign it to a level 1. What's the problem?
There are probably literally over a 100 posts (I haven't counted) explaining why people think this is an issue.
Just stating that you don't see a problem without explaining why at least some of those reasons are wrong isn't a positive contribution to this conversation. It comes off as just a dismissive remark, essentially saying that the rest of us are just being silly.
I have no idea if that is your intention, of course.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I don't think it's fair to say that Jeff's is not a positive contribution. It's a data point, and an important one.
I welcome Jeff and Sin's commentary here. It's important to see this issue from multiple points of view in order to achieve consensus. Sin has been the pepper in our stew, making me look and rethink arguments.
Jeff is just expressing his opinion that this change does not make much difference to him. It's important for us to see these viewpoints. More importantly, if others share Jeff or Sin's viewpoints, their presence in the thread might give others the courage to speak up and say so.
I want John and Tonya and Linda to hear from all of us here.
Hmm
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Several posters kept using the example of Pregens in Bonekeep as a potential source of abuse. Not wanting to take the time to download the PDF to my phone I figured somebody would eventually quote the section from Part 1 that stated Pregens weren't allowed.
After LampLighter stated he couldn't find it, I finally looked for myself. And then I couldn't find it, either.
But I remember, during the Slot Zero, that someone, or somewhere, stated that you could not use a Pregen. I remember because, when that language was missing from Part 2, quite a few Pregens flooded in at our next Convention.
It's possible that the decision banning Pregens was just a verbal declaration in my area, and that I misremembered it being written (I'm the first to point out that human memory is often faulty), but gosh, I was pretty sure of it.
So, since that's not the case, a simple solution (IMO), would be to make a statement that the Bonekeeps (or other future types of character trials) cannot be run with Pregens.
It kind of does go against the spirit of those scenarios anyways. And then there'd be less reason to alter Pregen applications generally.
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Nothing in the new rules prevents this switch from happening.
Problems it creates (as has been pointed out by others):
Not using a pregen to round out a party as it isn't as equipped as their own PC--it might provide a different skill set that is simply needed but isn't as survivable. Now when people show up and there are 4 rogues in an elemental-themed scenario, when previously one of them might switched out for a heavy hitter such as Oloch or Amiri. Now they'll be more likely to stay as what they originally brought because they have their own breath of life scroll, or have a higher AC, or just simply don't know the pregens well enough to feel comfortable enough to ensure their own survival--even though that would better the table overall.
Prevents? No. Discourages? Yes.
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I'm just going to go ahead and clarify that when I first asked this I was sitting at a table at Gen Con before being handed aspis pregens and was told of this "new" rule and in my opinion the guide wasn't clear enough that this was the actual intention. As in, there is nothing in the guide that specifically negates the FAQ so I was confused as to why it was even being brought up.
I know it's been mentioned, but I don't remember if it's been posted or not. Either way, here it is again for reference.
If my PC or pregenerated character dies permanently, what happens?
Player characters and pregenerated characters who do not return to the realm of the living receive 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 gold, and no items or boons. This is marked on their Chronicle sheet along with a note that the character is permanently dead. If a player was planning to hold the Chronicle from a pregenerated character and apply it to a lower level PC once the PC reached the level of the pregenerated character, they must either apply the Chronicle sheet immediately and report the PC as dead or assign the Chronicle sheet to a new level 1 PC (ie a new PC number) and report that character as dead.
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Nothing in the new rules prevents this switch from happening.Problems it creates (as has been pointed out by others):
Not using a pregen to round out a party as it isn't as equipped as their own PC--it might provide a different skill set that is simply needed but isn't as survivable. Now when people show up and there are 4 rogues in an elemental-themed scenario, when previously one of them might switched out for a heavy hitter such as Oloch or Amiri. Now they'll be more likely to stay as what they originally brought because they have their own breath of life scroll, or have a higher AC, or just simply don't know the pregens well enough to feel comfortable enough to ensure their own survival--even though that would better the table overall.
I'm not going to play a pregen when it increases the level of risk to that character that I either otherwise would have played, or that I wasn't even planning to play. So in that case, yes the rule change has prevented the switch from happening.
It is an increase in risk because I am not as familiar with the abilities of the pregen, and because the pregen doesn't have the range of equipment that I've bought to combat certain situations.
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I completely disagree. If you were playing a pregen, and you had the ability to shift the credit to a non-existent character number there was zero risk involved for you. The only way you could suffer any loss was if you chose to accept the consequences and not shift the credit.
You've just spent 5 hours of your life and have nothing to show for it, you lost the opportunity to gain gp and pp. So you definitely lose something! If you don't die, you have 3000 gp for your pc. Now instead you have none. How is that not a loss?
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I'm definitely not trying to discourage discussion and I didn't intend my posts to come off that way.
But I guess I strongly prefer discussion that is more than a glib "What is the problem?".
My intent was to get Jeff to give reasons for his opinion, not to dismiss his opinion. I guess I could have gone about that more politely and effectively (:-)) and for that I apologize
Edit: If I come across as even more grumpy than usual I'll point out that I have no air conditioning and the current temperature is 95.4 F ( Humidex of 108) :-(
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Several posters kept using the example of Pregens in Bonekeep as a potential source of abuse. Not wanting to take the time to download the PDF to my phone I figured somebody would eventually quote the section from Part 1 that stated Pregens weren't allowed.
After LampLighter stated he couldn't find it, I finally looked for myself. And then I couldn't find it, either.
But I remember, during the Slot Zero, that someone, or somewhere, stated that you could not use a Pregen. I remember because, when that language was missing from Part 2, quite a few Pregens flooded in at our next Convention.
It's possible that the decision banning Pregens was just a verbal declaration in my area, and that I misremembered it being written (I'm the first to point out that human memory is often faulty), but gosh, I was pretty sure of it.
So, since that's not the case, a simple solution (IMO), would be to make a statement that the Bonekeeps (or other future types of character trials) cannot be run with Pregens.
It kind of does go against the spirit of those scenarios anyways. And then there'd be less reason to alter Pregen applications generally.
There has never been a no pregen clause for any of the Bonekeeps. I have heard stories of convention organizers placing that restriction on the tables of Bonekeep offered at their conventions. But, that is a restriction they have put in place that has never been, to my knowledge (because maybe someone will pull up an official post saying otherwise), any restriction preventing pregens from playing any of the Bonekeeps.
