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Horror Adventures potential errata


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Al Rigg wrote:

I'm wondering about the trompe l'oeil being an inherited template. It would seem to me that it is intended to be a reflection of someone as they are when they are portrayed, rather than something that simply takes their physical form and then acquires class abilities on its own afterward.

If this is correct, then the template should be able to be applied to a creature with existing class levels and therefore be an acquired, rather than an inherited, template.

It's inherited rather than acquired because the trompe l'oeil was never anything other than a trompe l'oeil. It is created with any class levels the subject has (that is, the example tromp l'oeil is modeled after a 7th-level aristocrat, it didn't gain seven levels).

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
David Schwartz wrote:
Al Rigg wrote:

I'm wondering about the trompe l'oeil being an inherited template. It would seem to me that it is intended to be a reflection of someone as they are when they are portrayed, rather than something that simply takes their physical form and then acquires class abilities on its own afterward.

If this is correct, then the template should be able to be applied to a creature with existing class levels and therefore be an acquired, rather than an inherited, template.
It's inherited rather than acquired because the trompe l'oeil was never anything other than a trompe l'oeil. It is created with any class levels the subject has (that is, the example tromp l'oeil is modeled after a 7th-level aristocrat, it didn't gain seven levels).

I understand what you're saying but the template isn't being used by the trompe l'oeil, it's being applied to the aristocrat in order to create the (separate) creature. The resulting trompe l'oeil does not have the trompe l'oeil template.

An inherited template, say, half-fiend, applies at birth and the creature that inherits the template has the template, e.g., half-fiend human.

We don't have a ‘trompe l'oeil trompe l'oeil.’ We have a trompe l'oeil human. The human didn't inherit the template from his parents. It was applied to him later in life, and thus acquired.

This is, of course, a strange application of the template rules because we're using it to create something completely separate to the aristocrat but we have to work with what we have.

Thoughts?


That doesn't seem to be how the trompe l'oeil works at all, Al Rigg.

I'm not sure why you think you need the template to create trompe l'oeil, the creation requirements for the canvas are just craft construct, animate objects, enter image, sufficient gold and a craft(painting) check. The template is then applied to the creature you made a magic painting out of.

You're right, you have a trompe l'oeil human, but that creature is the thing that comes out o the magical painting and not anything else.

Contributor

One could argue that the aristocrat didn't acquire the the tromp l'oeil, the tromp l'oeil inherited the aristocrat. But I wouldn't, because what's the point when there's no mechanical difference between acquired and inherited templates? Name it whichever way makes sense to you. :-)

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Squiggit wrote:

That doesn't seem to be how the trompe l'oeil works at all, Al Rigg.

I'm not sure why you think you need the template to create trompe l'oeil, the creation requirements for the canvas are just craft construct, animate objects, enter image, sufficient gold and a craft(painting) check. The template is then applied to the creature you made a magic painting out of.
You're right, you have a trompe l'oeil human, but that creature is the thing that comes out o the magical painting and not anything else.

I understand all this, Squiggit. I'm talking about whether the template should be an acquired or inherited template for the creation of the creature's stat block using the game rules and whether those rules are correct. Hence, why this is in the potential errata thread. I think the template should be an acquired template, and not an inherited template. Nothing you've said addresses that.

David Schwartz wrote:
One could argue that the aristocrat didn't acquire the the tromp l'oeil, the tromp l'oeil inherited the aristocrat. But I wouldn't, because what's the point when there's no mechanical difference between acquired and inherited templates? Name it whichever way makes sense to you. :-)

One could argue those things but they're irrelevant to the correct application of the rules. I understand the 'story' aspect of the monster. It is a duplicate of an intelligent creature that emerges 'whole cloth' from a painting. What I'm discussing here is whether the template we use to create the creature is correctly specified or not. I'm interested in the correct application of the rules for something I'm designing that will be published and I'd like the reasoning to be correct for the adventure's storyline. While, of course, you're correct that there's no mechanical difference between them, inherited and acquired templates are conceptually separated for a reason: how and when they can be applied.

We have the following situation:

Inherited templates are gained at birth or creation. They must, therefore, be applied before class levels.
Acquired templates can be gained at any point. They can, therefore, be applied after class levels.
The trompe l'oeil results from the application of the template to another stat block. It does not receive the template and so doesn't inherit it. It "is" the template.
The trompe l'oeil results from the application of the template to a human aristocrat. Therefore, the human aristocrat stat block receives the template and so it cannot be inherited and must be acquired.

I hope my reasoning makes sense. I accept it's a minor point I'm raising but, initially, I wasn't entirely sure of the reasoning behind the template's development. It seems clear now that the intention is to have the creature emerge with class levels, though, and so I conclude that the template is in error and should be an acquired template, not inherited.

Thanks for your help.


Al Rigg wrote:
I understand all this, Squiggit. I'm talking about whether the template should be an acquired or inherited template for the creation of the creature's stat block using the game rules and whether those rules are correct. Hence, why this is in the potential errata thread. I think the template should be an acquired template, and not an inherited template. Nothing you've said addresses that.

Your original post seemed to imply you thought the template was applied to the aristocrat himself, though I see what you mean now, but I still think your fundamental premise is in error:

"This kind of template is applied to a creature well after its birth or creation" is the blurb that first describes acquired templates. "Some templates are part of a creature from the beginning of its existence" is the phrasing used to described inherited templates.

The trompe l'oeil template is applied to the creature upon its creation and cannot be gained after the fact. There is no way within the trompe l'oeil's rules that allow an already existing creature to gain the template. So by definition inherited is the only sort of template that makes sense.

That the trompe l'oeil copies it stats from a creature that already exists doesn't really seem relevant here.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Squiggit wrote:

Your original post seemed to imply you thought the template was applied to the aristocrat himself, though I see what you mean now, but I still think your fundamental premise is in error:

"This kind of template is applied to a creature well after its birth or creation" is the blurb that first describes acquired templates. "Some templates are part of a creature from the beginning of its existence" is the phrasing used to described inherited templates.

The trompe l'oeil template is applied to the creature upon its creation and cannot be gained after the fact. There is no way within the trompe l'oeil's rules that allow an already existing creature to gain the template. So by definition inherited is the only sort of template that makes sense.

That the trompe l'oeil copies it stats from a creature that already exists doesn't really seem relevant here.

The trompe l'oeil isn't the creature that receives the template. The creature that receives the template is the human aristocrat. Therefore, the template must be applicable to a creature with class levels. Ergo, the template must be an acquired template.

Edit: look I completely understand that the original human aristocrat isn't changed in any way, and that the trompe l'oeil is a completely separate creature that is simply mirroring the human aristocrat's stats. BUT the way in which we create the trompe l'oeil's stat block is to apply a template to a human aristocrat which means that the template has to be able to be applied AFTER class levels. The trompe l'oeil isn't a creature with a template. It IS the template that's applied.

Further Edit: Ask yourself "what is inheriting the template?" By your argument, you're saying the trompe l'oeil is. So what you're saying is that it's a trompe l'oeil trompe l'oeil. Do you see what I mean? The trompe l'oeil does not exist to inherit itself. A human that inherits the half-fiend template does exist, however, and so we get a half-fiend human. But we want to create a trompe l'oeil of a human aristocrat. So who is inheriting the template?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Further Further Edit: Alternatively, stop thinking about who or what is acquiring or inheriting anything and instead think about the rules of templates. One can be applied after class levels, the other can't. We need to apply it to the stat block of a human aristocrat. Which do we have to use?


Your entire point seems to be predicated on this assumption that inherited templates can't be applied to creatures with class levels. This is a rule that doesn't actually appear to exist anywhere I can find it and there are other inherited templates that are applied similarly (i.e. the waxwork template, though that one specifically removes class levels).

All acquired/inherited does is indicate whether a creature can gain the template at some point during their life or has to be born/created with it and the trompe l'oeil template fits decidedly into the latter. Class levels never factor into it.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

Ok. Thanks for expressing your views.


Uh, plenty of templates can be either inherited or acquired. For example, half-fiend can be inherited (child of a fiend) or acquired (you use the demonic rituals in the relevant Book of the Damned). There's no mechanical difference between the two concepts so I don't understand the point of this discussion.


Compelling Rant - Page ???

This spell does nothing but drain your wisdom by 1d4.

Spell Text:
You deliver a confusing but fascinating monologue, relaying conspiracies or metaphysical revelations that confound your audience, throughout the spell’s casting time and as long as you concentrate. You take 1d4 points of Wisdom drain when you begin the speech and can’t reduce or prevent this damage in any way.


Firewarrior44 wrote:

Compelling Rant - Page ???

This spell does nothing but drain your wisdom by 1d4.

Ha! Maybe it was supposed to be a version of Enthrall?

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