One point of nonlethal damage cancels out ferocity?


Rules Questions

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QuidEst wrote:

Kazaan, by your interpretation the character can no longer sleep at all. They will permanently suffer exhaustion, never regain daily resources, and all ability damage must be cured magically.

It seems more reasonable to interpret the feat as not preventing sleep.

There's no rule that says you must use an ability you have, even a passive one. If a creature with Ferocity chooses to not to use its ability to remain conscious, they can go to sleep.


Hmm, so if they have chosen to use Ferocity while at negative hit points, now they can no longer sleep? At least, until they are positive hit points...which they can't get back because they can't sleep... :D


Although it's a bit of a tangent to the topic, I would like to remind people that being asleep isn't necessarily the same thing as being unconscious. In medical terms anyway.


We've been over this. While that is true, that's not what ferocious says. Ferocious says that you 'remain conscious'. Falling asleep is not 'remaining conscious', under either the medical or normal definition.


So, clearly, the thing to do is deal the nonlethal damage before ferocity can kick in. Easy.


Exactly!

Liberty's Edge

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The text says they "remain conscious" so conscious they MUST remain.

Even when they're dead. :]

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:
We've been over this. While that is true, that's not what ferocious says. Ferocious says that you 'remain conscious'. Falling asleep is not 'remaining conscious', under either the medical or normal definition.

I disagree. A sleeping character still has some awareness of the world around it (i.e. can make Perception checks at a penalty). An unconscious character does not and cannot.


*shrug* then we disagree.


_Ozy_ wrote:
*shrug* then we disagree.

Google's boxed answer, states "Being asleep is not the same thing as being unconscious. A sleeping person will respond to loud noises or gentle shaking -- an unconscious person will not. An unconscious person cannot cough or clear his or her throat. This can lead to death if the airway becomes blocked.".

The majority of the other hits also agree with us.

Whether that translates over to the game is naturally subject to the GM.


I've already agreed to that. What I disagree with is that 'falling asleep' is consistent with the common definition for 'remaining conscious'.

Especially when the definition of conscious is:

con·scious
ˈkän(t)SHəs/
adjective
aware of and responding to one's surroundings; awake.


_Ozy_ wrote:

I've already agreed to that. What I disagree with is that 'falling asleep' is consistent with the common definition for 'remaining conscious'.

Especially when the definition of conscious is:

con·scious
ˈkän(t)SHəs/
adjective
aware of and responding to one's surroundings; awake.

The definition you happened to select isn't a very good one, imho.

The two definitions given actually contradict each other, as it's been pointed out that a sleeping person responds to their environment and is, on a certain level, aware of what's going on around them.

But yeah, I agree, that people often commonly interchange the two terms. There's not a lot you can do when people disagree about the basic meaning of a word, except agree to disagree.


The definition I selected was the Google box for 'define conscious'.

Try it yourself.

And no, generally a sleeping person doesn't respond to the environment unless they actually wake up. That's why when you ask a sleeping person a question, they don't answer back. ;)


_Ozy_ wrote:

The definition I selected was the Google box for 'define conscious'.

Try it yourself.

And no, generally a sleeping person doesn't respond to the environment unless they actually wake up. That's why when you ask a sleeping person a question, they don't answer back. ;)

Well, that's just a matter of sensitivity. ;)

If you yell at them, they will respond... if not coherently at first.

Conversely, a fully awake person might not hear a whispering question, and thus fail to answer back.


These kind of things make me glad I can change things in my home game as I see fit.


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It's a curious kind of reasoning that suggests that one point of nonlethal damage can do what two points of lethal damage cannot.

I'll be interpreting in favor of the utility of the feat to the tough characters.

Sovereign Court

GinoA wrote:

The definition of unconscious does not include sleeping. There is no clear definition of sleeping. However, the sleep spell never states it renders you unconscious.

At the risk of invoking the dreaded Real Life, IRL unconscious and asleep are two very different things. Why shouldn't they be so in game as well?

Here's a pretty close game definition of real-world sleep! ;)

PRD: "Rest: To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells."

Sovereign Court

Also, I'm pretty sure Diehard doesn't make someone immune to the nightmare spell, as there are already specific wording on who can or can't sleep:

"Creatures who don't sleep (such as elves, but not half-elves) or dream are immune to this spell."

Also would suck if they can't be forewarned about impending danger by a friendly caster via dream spell:

"If the recipient is awake when the spell begins, the messenger can choose to wake up (ending the spell) or remain in the trance. The messenger can remain in the trance until the recipient goes to sleep, then enter the recipient's dream and deliver the message as normal. A messenger that is disturbed during the trance comes awake, ending the spell."

:)

Finally, a look at the Bestiary enlightens on the subject of sleep:

"Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep."

...which seems to indicate the makers of the game didn't feel like defining those three basic functions of a humanoid sentient living organism! :)


Nightmare needs updated. Elves sleep now.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:

The definition I selected was the Google box for 'define conscious'.

Try it yourself.

And no, generally a sleeping person doesn't respond to the environment unless they actually wake up. That's why when you ask a sleeping person a question, they don't answer back. ;)

I not only sleepwalk regularly, but had to stop keeping my phone in my bedroom because I would answer it and have complete conversations without ever waking up.

Sleep is weird.

Sovereign Court

Here's the complete answer on sleep, by the way...

Edit: if you follow that link, you'll see a post from Rogue Eidolon that mentions AP 44's rule on lack of sleep:

"You might also consider
using a variant rule where characters who do not get a
full night’s sleep may suffer the effects of fatigue. If a
PC does not get at least 6 hours of sleep, she must make a
DC 15 Fortitude save or be fatigued and take a –1 penalty
on all other checks and saving throws against sleep
effects. A second night without sleep requires another
DC 15 Fortitude save. A failed save results in the character
becoming exhausted and the penalties increasing to –2. A
third failed save on the next night increases the penalties
to –3."

Sovereign Court

More gooddies about sleep (and my lack thereof) under the spell "Polypurpose Panacea":

Lucid Dream: If you take this panacea within 1 hour of going to sleep, you have a lucid dream that is under your control and lasts for an hour.

Sleep: You enter a pleasant and restful sleep for at least 1 hour unless wakened. If you would normally begin sleeping at this time, when the panacea ends you continue sleeping normally.

Wakefulness: You remain awake for 2 hours without feeling sleepy, and without side effects such as jitteriness. You gain a +5 resistance bonus against sleep-related spells such as lullaby and sleep. This use of the panacea merely delays your need for sleep and does not count as rest or sleep. You can use it multiple times in succession, but as each effect wears off, you are as tired as you would be had you not used the panacea.

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