Corsario's Kingmakers: Agents of the Kingdom Discussion


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Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

I have a question of i can. I'll preface this by saying that I know jack about pack up speeds, distances and movements, instead I try to be logical. Raising an army takes time, moving an army takes time. Despite this, a bare few hours after the King vanished they were on their way. That is extremely fast. That is hyper fast. In the time it takes a smaller force to pack up and leave, they are a mere two hours away after travelling from somewhere. I'm clarifying this because it means one of two things. Either they were already on there way to meet the King and therefore have no knowledge of the recent events (such as Rade taking command) OR they had pre knowledge of the event that happened and therefore it's a coup or attempted assassination attempt or whatever - which basically makes them pretty evil. So my question is do I have this right or is my logic failing me?

Liberty's Edge

Kingmaker Exploration Map

Your logic is not failing you. They were already near, there is no other explanation.

Liberty's Edge

Kingmaker Exploration Map

Sorry for the delay in the First World Battle. Working on it.


Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

Hmm ok so looking for possible solutions here.
1. Fighting straight up is not an option. Larger force means better combat ability, especially in open space like we would be if they attacked on the road.
2. Fleeing might be an option but we would have to know where we would end up at a point where they would catch us. If nothing's viable, we would either need more time, or to move faster.
3. Diplomacy is also an option. We have a pretty outstanding bard in the party, and we might be able to swing it. The General's history makes this a slightly risky option though.

In thing in our favour would probably be that they have a specific target. When you know what someone wants, it's easier to manipulate that. For instance he probably wants Rade and expects us to flee. So do what he expects, send a few wagons with the monks in a random direction. He might spot the tracks, the footprints and disturbance, and follow, it's going to be hard for him to know which convoy contains Rade. If he chases after it, then we pack up and go in the opposite direction but now with more time and better distance. We can even lay further false trails.

IDK in just brainstorming here. If I could ask you something GM, it would be to let us know here and now if combat is unavoidable. There's little point wasting time banging our heads against a wall if this is intended to be a scripted encounter that there is no way out of.


M Roleplayer 25 / GM 8 / Writer 18 - Neutral Annoyed - Atlanta, GA - SA: Punctuation, Spelling, Sentence Structure
Ishana Tamanna wrote:
So my question is do I have this right or is my logic failing me?

Correct for as far as it goes. Like Corsario said, presuming movement-per-day distances - which for a professional army like the Roman legions could be up to 20 miles per day, though for a conscript (i.e. most standard medieval 'peasant' armies) were in the range of 10 miles/day, since unit cohesiveness remained a factor - and the distance from New Stetven to Restov of 140-200 road-miles, they had to have been on the road for anywhere between 7 and 20 days, depending on the force makeup. However, there IS an alternate potential explanation.

Noleski gave what's apparently a very generous package to his 'goodie-two-shoes' cousin; a month ago (let's say) he decided that that was a bit overgenerous of him. So he calls in his cousin Max, says, 'I'm assigning you these forces. Go get my money back, and you don't have to go gentle on cousin Rupert; if he dies while you're getting it back, 's just as good. Bring his daughter back, though - let's show how merciful we are.'

So Max assembles his force and marches down, and at the time of the party, he's making a cold camp (the better to hide with) only 10 or 12 miles north. The day Rupert's supposed to kick off (one way or the other) all this happens. By 7:30, the Restov rumormill is bursting at the seams about 'what happened'; someone from Restov rides north with the latest juicy gossip, and within an hour or so runs into Max's army. Max gets the news, says 'well, fine - you, messengers, go find these mooks, give 'em Noleski's order, tell 'em we'll execute 'em on the spot if they fight'.

There's generally an alternate background to what we might see.

Ishana Tamanna wrote:

Hmm ok so looking for possible solutions here.

1. Fighting straight up is not an option. Larger force means better combat ability, especially in open space like we would be if they attacked on the road.
2. Fleeing might be an option but we would have to know where we would end up at a point where they would catch us. If nothing's viable, we would either need more time, or to move faster.
3. Diplomacy is also an option. We have a pretty outstanding bard in the party, and we might be able to swing it. The General's history makes this a slightly risky option though.

In thing in our favour would probably be that they have a specific target. When you know what someone wants, it's easier to manipulate that. For instance he probably wants Rade and expects us to flee. So do what he expects, send a few wagons with the monks in a random direction. He might spot the tracks, the footprints and disturbance, and follow, it's going to be hard for him to know which convoy contains Rade. If he chases after it, then we pack up and go in the opposite direction but now with more time and better distance. We can even lay further false trails.

IDK in just brainstorming here. If I could ask you something GM, it would be to let us know here and now if combat is unavoidable. There's little point wasting time banging our heads against a wall if this is intended to be a scripted encounter that there is no way out of.

Fighting: see the 'bridge over the river Shrike' thought below. As things currently sit, however, everyone knows it's not an actual option if we want this part of the campaign to continue any further.

Diplomacy: Only likely to help delay him, and Alysandra will do her damned best to draw it out to give the rest of her family enough lead time.

Fleeing: There's no real direction to flee. Into the city is a possibility, but then we're joining the Rostlanders, and he lays siege to Restov; null option. We can't get around to the east without going much nearer to him; null option. We can't go south, since it's cut off by the Shrike; null option. North takes us straight to him; null option. Our only even vaguely viable option is east.

Splitting Up (Subset of Fleeing): At this point, the best option there is to have the majority of the followers, monks, &c. basically just moving right along. Since we knew the Issians were coming, the IB (with the approval of Rade, Verisisi, and Garess) would load the 'heavy goods' part of the treasury (most of the gold, etc.) into the two largest wagons and basically cover/conceal it with additional baggage. Garess can be in charge of that force (because it'd probably take a crowbar to tear him away from the treasury), along with the majority of his knights and our followers to protect the caravan. Rade, Verisisi, and a third of the cohorts and a few more combat-capable followers, all of them mounted, proceed ahead to either Nivakta's Crossing or Fort Serenko - the latter if they can make it in one day of hard riding, I forget how big the hexes are.

Otherwise ... well, see my comments below.

Corsario wrote:
I did said it was "railroadish", right?

Yes, you did. You didn't say you were going to completely ignore us, though.

Corsario wrote:

Now... we can discuss how long it takes to pick up a camp. And how long to pick that specific camp. Also the color of the tents, or the kind of cloth they are made of.

Really? :S
Sorry, but in those cases whatever the DM says, goes. You don't like it, then it is not the game for you. So if I say it takes you 3 days, yes, it takes you 3 days.

No, the DM doesn't 'say'; he makes a ruling. Typically, he does that based off what his players ar trying to do, taking into consideration any specific rules (such as for a pavilion it taking 90 minutes to assemble, and half that to take apart) or considerations ("We'll knock it down, wrap it up, and stuff it in the cart, even if that means it takes three times as long to untangle it later"). And then he tweaks the encounter he wants to have happen in order to make it happen anyhow. If you 'say it takes (us) 3 days', when simple logic's response to that is 'WTF?!?', then you really should expect a player calling you on it.

A DM 'saying' means the players have no control over the game or their characters; the GM is playing by, and for, himself. No, I don't want to play in that sort of game. I don't think anyone here wants to play in that sort of game. I don't think you want to run that sort of game.

Corsario wrote:

But...

You are already packed up and ready to leave. You can get 2 hours head start from the Issian army. And the Issian army is not going to Restov. It is coming for you guys.
They will catch up with you. Quickly.
And if you got 5 hours, it is the same thing. You gain some time, but not enough.
But it DOES matter, because it's NOT the same thing. With 5 hours on the road, the first one or two having been hustled, puts us 10 to 14 miles away. That would mean it'd take them 2 more hours to catch up to us - which would put us at Nivakta's Crossing and enable us to get to the other side of the bridge there, and thus have a reasonable chance to hold the bridge against a military attack if push came to shove. And instead we have this -
Ishana Tamanna wrote:
Yeah, I'm struggling to think of a solution now as well. I don't think we can run, I think combat is out, and he doesn't sound like the guy that enjoys diplomacy. I don't even thing trickery options work - both take time, and we don't have any of it. Are our options very much limited to 'Blaze of Glory?"

- where the players, viewing the situation you've decided to 'say' we're in, are looking at all the realistic options and admitting that hey, you've placed us into a situation where the only realistic option is to fight until we're killed.

You want us on the run. We want to be on the run. We're willing to be part of this plan; hell, we're excited to be a part of it. But we want to have our desires, our stated actions, matter. To take effect. We don't mind - we appreciate!! - that Issia has an army out for our King's treasury. We WANT to have the set-piece with the General!! But we want a real, actual chance to defend it, we want our actions to actually happen, our decisions to have an effect on the events that we're spending our time writing about.

Please, we want to play too, instead of you just 'saying' what happens. Otherwise, what's the point?

Corsario wrote:
Questions?

Yeah. Players who argue too hard, b!tch at their GMs, or call them on their bullsh!t tend to get shown the door. Is this getting me kicked out of the game?


Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

Fleeing: There's no real direction to flee. Into the city is a possibility, but then we're joining the Rostlanders, and he lays siege to Restov; null option.

Actually my plan was more hide out in the city and send out monks, wagons (heck, they could even be empty) in a logical direction we might take if we were escaping. Sure, he can siege the city, but that only works if he knows that we stayed behind, and if he gets it wrong and sieges the city, and we are not there, then we get away easily. The idea is to use the followers / other dudes to draw them away, encourage them to chase in a fixed direction...and then quickly run in the other direction. Even if he catches up with the monks and realises the trick, he has to play the guessing game again if he returns and spots new tracks in another direction - are we bluffing him again etc.

Of course, it all kinda falls flat if he has a ton of divination spells tho, but then again, if he has that level of spellcasting power behind him, its pretty much GG for us atm lol. Also another downside is that at best, it's a 50/50 shot at getting away, but I guess it remains an weaker option.


M Roleplayer 25 / GM 8 / Writer 18 - Neutral Annoyed - Atlanta, GA - SA: Punctuation, Spelling, Sentence Structure

Divination spells are a rich man's plaything, and not necessary if you have what they replace - grunts who go around poking into things. If there's actually an army (and we presume there is), Max has grunts to spare. So the plan falls down if he has anything resembling sufficient numbers to do what he probably knew he might need to do - lay siege to Restov. Only a couple or three platoons of cavalry would put paid to any monks + wagons we send out now, with the rest of his forces settling in. While slipping away downriver by boat is perhaps a possibility afterwards, the problem lies in the fact that there is no way we could get into the city at this point without being recognized/spotted and thus being hooked into taking Restov's side. Any attempt to escape after that would need to evade his lines, which would basically mean crossing the river - and to be honest, if HE is being realistic about the possibility of having to lay siege to Restov, he's also going to send troops across the Shrike to set up a camp across from Restov.

The encountering of which troops would be a perfect 'us at Nivakta's Crossing' meetup with them and the General ...


Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

Relevant:

Quote:


"I cannot dare to guess what happens in the mind of our beloved regent of the Dragonscale Throne. But I don't think he fears a war with Restov, and all of Rostland for that matter, and maybe an excuse for it is what he wants. My city is ready for that war, and we will fight it if it is brought to us. But we will not cause it."

So, if the General see's tracks heading away the city, he has two options. He can send his entire force at either the city (if he suspects its a bluff) or the tracks, OR split his forces and attack both. However, as per the above quote, diplomatically this puts him in a difficult decision. If he attacks the city and we are NOT there, he triggers an open war with Restov and Rostland for nothing. If he DOESN'T Attack the city - then he might not get Rade and us.

On balance, I would agree that its probable that he sends mounted forces after the wagons, but this force is small, lighter, all the better to travel fast and (probably) something that we could handle. Eventually of course, he would realise we would not be within the city and follow, but by then hopefully we have reached a defendable position.

That said, if he has like, 2,000 men then this idea falls flat on his face, because we couldn't take on 1,000 men ourselves and the remaining number of his forces would be fairly able to prevent us escaping if we stayed in the town.

GM Corsario, we really need your input here, because the likely situation that will happen here is that we all talk about the situation for the next month, and then everyone leaves the game due to no progress being made. I know this, because I have seen it before when a GM throws a difficult problem to the group and expects them to solve it - if the answer isn't obvious (or in this case, the "right one" the game pretty much dies. I'm attempting to put this respectfully, because quite frankly, I like my character, and this setting, and I wouldn't really like it to die so quickly after this starting.

Currently our characters are in a difficult decision, and while its currently a nice thought exercise we are in, but bottom line, speaking plainly, our characters have roughly zero options. If we stay, we die, if we flee, we die. We don't have the time to pack up and have a favourable battlefield, and that is basically all of our options here. Clearly, there is a "railroaded" solution to this, but if it exists, it's not clear or attractive to our characters, which is why we have been stuck on this topic for some while. Unless new information comes to light, then we might as well sit back, wait for the army to arrive, and heck, just give Rade to them because realistically, there isn't anything we can do against an army that we cannot fight or flee from. If we are, actually meant to do one of those options, then you will need to find some way to communicate new information to our characters, because while you (politely speaking) might know the right 'answer' - our characters - don't.


Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

Also how realistic is it just to buy / purchase 5th level spellcasting and just teleport to our destination of choice. Shouldn't be that hard right?

Sovereign Court

Male Gnome oracle (enlightened philosopher) 1/paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 6

Realisticly, not a problem at all,
Also realisticly if you can make it to where my group is, there is already plans set in motion to confuse and mislead those following you. But you would have to get 8 miles outside of the city.

Sovereign Court

Male Gnome oracle (enlightened philosopher) 1/paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 6

There is currently someone creating false tracks with magic in 5 different directions, at the end of each day we can repeat this process, however you would have to allow this to happen otherwise I can't help you out......well I can but I would have to get sneaky with my help


Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

We don't know what exactly, you are doing though. You haven't exactly been forthcoming, and the last interaction you had with anyone not from RW was "Leave me to grieve, come back with the dawn". I mean, are you even here with us? Are you aware of the developments? Last post I saw, you were insisting on speaking only with the RW, and most of the discussions happening now IC are with non RW members.


M Roleplayer 25 / GM 8 / Writer 18 - Neutral Annoyed - Atlanta, GA - SA: Punctuation, Spelling, Sentence Structure

Last we knew, you were 3 miles away, at the meeting site - an hour and a half for the wagons, or an hour if Corsario allows us to hustle them. If you're now 8 miles away, that's 3 hours with 2 hours of hustling, or 4 without. And since the 'disaster' happened just before/at dawn, saying 'with the dawn' as you did means - to us - that you won't talk to us until tomorrow anyhow.

And everything that Ishana said. Soooo .... while it'd be nice to have 5 different directions, I'm still not sure what directions you could possibly make tracks in ...

Sovereign Court

Male Gnome oracle (enlightened philosopher) 1/paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 6

8 miles worth of them, as well as some traps/intimidating choke points.
Once you get past 8 miles I can't help you, but with as many things as I have done, you should be able to escape safely.
So you would have to follow the trail to the Meeting sight, once there, you would speak with Alexander, then make your decision so roughly about an hour hustling.


Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

Axhammer, I'm going to mention this again, because you don't understand my point. I'm going to break it down step by step. You are not with us. The last interaction Axhammer had with NPCs was with the Restov Riders

1. Axhammer is not with us. You voluntarily decided to stay at the crater (or at least, somewhere not with us). This is a key point, because your last post in gameplay was attempting to set up a council with RW - most of which were actually with us. It was estimated you were probably having this chat on your own. There is no IC post saying "oh, I'm now with you guys", nothing like this at all. You are, not here.

2. You have no idea about recent developments. You don't know what we worked out with the Lord Mayor, and you don't know anything about the General, or probably the army heading our way, since I can only see that mentioned by the Lord Mayor. If if you did know about the army, you dont know how long it is until they arrive, you don't know that we plan to leave and so on. I'll say this again. You are not here. You chose to stay seperate, so unless you have information from another source (which is fine), Axhammer shouldn't have this information.

3. Why would we speak to you? As we last said, your last interaction was "leave me alone" - a rather rude one considering our cohorts (or at least MY cohort) would have like to speak to you about what happened, since you were realistically the best witness. Why would we speak to you, when you made it clear, in character, you don't want to talk? Unless you have access to information we don't, this is looking like some pretty high level metagaming.

Liberty's Edge

Kingmaker Exploration Map

Sorry for the delay, have been very busy. You are right, I need to step in. Posting in gameplay.
Making the story short, you need to take hard decisions, and move quickly.
This part is "railroad-ish". You need to get into the Stolen Lands, and you are not going to be able to get back.


Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

Thanks for that post in gameplay Corsario, it makes things clearer going forward in regards to what we should be doing.

Sovereign Court

Male Gnome oracle (enlightened philosopher) 1/paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 6
Ishana Tamanna wrote:

3. Why would we speak to you? As we last said, your last interaction was "leave me alone" - a rather rude one considering our cohorts (or at least MY cohort) would have like to speak to you about what happened, since you were realistically the best witness. Why would we speak to you, when you made it clear, in character, you don't want to talk? Unless you have access to information we don't, this is looking like some pretty high level metagaming.

I do in fact have access to information that you do not, but it seems you don't want to learn it?


Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

Then maybe you can tell us in character, instead of expecting our characters to psychically read your mind? Why would our characters meet with you when a) you told us not to talk with you and b) when we don't actually know you have information on this. Unless you want us to metagame?


M Roleplayer 25 / GM 8 / Writer 18 - Neutral Annoyed - Atlanta, GA - SA: Punctuation, Spelling, Sentence Structure

We want a reason for us to have been hamstrung for three hours while you're creating eight miles worth of false trails and ambushes besides 'the GM has decided for no discernable reason to overwhelmingly favor the guy who totally screwed himself over'. We'd like a little logic, we'd like a decent, IC reason to NOT stay carefully as far from you as the road will allow, we'd like our choices to matter, we'd like your decisions to have consequences besides 'you're now the star of the Cohort Show'.

In short, we want something besides GM fiat trying to make up for you being an idiot.

Liberty's Edge

Kingmaker Exploration Map

Please, refrain from making rude comments. We are gaming here, and PvP, in and out of character is not accepted.
To make it clear, Axhammer is in the game, and will be part of it. So you better play along nicely.
Yes, he started on the wrong foot. Part of the game will be how he gets on everybody's good side again.

Sovereign Court

Male Gnome oracle (enlightened philosopher) 1/paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 6

Maybe since none of the characters wanted him around in the first place , I have been working behind your backs through diviniation, and other means to scout and work something out so that when you started fleeing the city you wouldn't be screwed over, and that I could keep working behind the scenes until such time as Axhammer could reveal that he and Alexander were the ones behind it all along, BUUUUUT you don't seem to want to play along. At all, with anything any of my characters have to say or do, ever. I do mean EVER, Mr. Gold-Wyrms-Are-LG-But-I-Am-Not.

Sovereign Court

Male Gnome oracle (enlightened philosopher) 1/paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 6

As a note, The GM, Corsario hasn't given me any kind of breaks here, all of my ideas might fail, they might not, however they are my ideas while all of you are busy doing your own thing.

He hasn't done anything other than listen/read my ideas and pretty much said "Try it see if it works" to paraphase him. He isn't forcing yall to accept Alexander or Axhammer, or any of the others. Thats all on the group.I am merely working behind the scenes which is why I am not posting as None of you are scrying or doing anything towards alexander or axhammer.


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Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

I'm going to preface this by saying that I think Wym kinda went over the top in that previous post even if I understand where he is coming from.

I'm also going to say that I think it's great that Axhammer is making attempts to be helpful - really I'd like us to be working as a team. That said, I want to address some misconceptions Axhammer, since it might help us both in future.

Firstly, Axhammer isolates himself. You can trace this back to the dinner, where he stood in a corner and expected everyone to run to him. it was visible again when he became the odd one out by not swearing an oath, and then slandered the King. It was apparent again, when in the aftermath you told everyone not of the RW to leave you alone to grieve. All of our cohorts had actually lost someone important and the biggest witness told everyone to 'come back tomorrow'. It was enormously rude, egotistical and a failure to acknowledge the loss felt by our own characters. Yet again, you put your own wishes above everyone else. This, is why the party currently treats you like this.

However, this does not grant an excuse to be angry that the party isn't talking to you. Even putting aside how he is acting, Axhammer directly said to "leave him alone" and the party treated him like an adult. We respected your wishes. Yes, some us thought you were being a jerk but we left you alone regardless. Therefore Axhammer has no right to be upset - we did as requested and quite frankly, have been busy with massive problems ever since. Nor does Axhammer have the right to expect us to scry him. Not only does this cost resources, but it again makes it seem if everyone is revolving around him. I don't expect anyone to be scrying my character if I told people to leave me alone- in fact I'm glad people would be accepting of my request and privacy.

About the information sharing, it's important it's shared. If I ace a knowledge check, the party trusts me to update them. Instead Achammmer keeps this information to himself and is upset people are not dancing for joy. As mentioned, we don't know what you know, because you haven't told us. How can you expect the party to be happy when you don't tell anyone. As said before, we are not mind readers - don't expect it. It's usually better to inform others of new info, because then more people can action on it, instead of just you. The irony is that by, as you say, going behind our backs, makes you less trustworthy than letting us know about it. It's not hard to send even a messenger of you cannot be bothered coming yourself.

I write this so you see where we are coming from and why people are treating Axhammer in this way, do we can change it - not to get at you. Now that you might understand how Axhammer comes across, things might change in future.

Also I wrote all of this in my lunch break on an iPhone so autocorrect might have screwed me.


M Roleplayer 25 / GM 8 / Writer 18 - Neutral Annoyed - Atlanta, GA - SA: Punctuation, Spelling, Sentence Structure
Axhammer Rocknose wrote:
Maybe since none of the characters wanted him around in the first place ...

Actually, you were the first one to post about not wanting to be with us, but we'll get to brass tacks - specific examples - in a moment.

Axhammer Rocknose wrote:
BUUUUUT you don't seem to want to play along. At all, with anything any of my characters have to say or do, ever. I do mean EVER, Mr. Gold-Wyrms-Are-LG-But-I-Am-Not.

Okay, let's seperate this into 'player' and 'character'.

------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the characters:

Coahouse doesn't agree with a lot of what Axhammer has said, no, I agree with that. That's why he was struggling so hard in the Three Paladins conversation that took place during the first 'social turn' before dinner - a conversation that Coalhouse and Alysandra initiated and made happen, as compared to Axhammer's alcove retreat.

Axhammer, however, swore a non-oath, was called out on it, and was OOCly given the chance to swear a temporal oath of fealty, which you (Grogimus) did not take. This is why Axhammer was left out of the meeting, and why he's still in the Restov Dinner thread, not in the Dinner of the Thousand Breaths thread.

Does Coalhouse agree with what Axhammer did? No. Would he play along with it? Heck no. Does Coalhouse think Axhammer is a first-class prat? Yes, especially because immediately after dinner Axhammer approached the king and gave insult that either a) in the dueling society which is Brevoy would properly require satisfaction on the field of honor, or b) in the functionally medieval (and definitely aristocratic monarchy) society which is Brevoy would be considered lèse-majesté and result in the summary separation of his head from his shoulders.

Not only that, but Axhammer then came to a meeting to which he was invited only with the understanding that he would subsequently swear fealty. Yes, Coalhouse asked him politely to step off a bit, with a 'Thomas Becket' warning - one, note, that the individual present most likely to actually do would have been Rudolf Ferdinand Aldori III, a guy who is clearly angling to get his hands on the power - Axhammer decides to claim that Coalhouse just threatened to kill him. (He hadn't; he asked him politely to just go back up the road a ways. "Whaddaya say? Keep the peace a bit?" Direct quote. Coalhouse hasn't yet threatened anyone; when it happens, you'll know, because I'll make no bones about it.)

So yeah, were it allowed, Coalhouse would kick Axhammer's butt up between his ears as often as was required for the [tall for a] gnome to realize that none of these people are out to get him - it's only his paranoia that's making it seem so. It isn't allowed, so ... Coalhouse treated Axhammer with contempt on the last post of interaction written.

In regards to Alexander Burfoot, neither Coalhouse nor Alysandra have so much as interacted with the boy.

In short, no - Coalhouse isn't going to play along, ever, unless Axhammer can manage to get his head screwed on straight. I hope he does; I hope I'm around to see it.

------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the players:

You retreated your character into a corner and expected people to come to him; I had my character bring the RP to him.

You OOCly knee-jerk reactioned about the king's (private!) proposal to Amavin, getting seriously steamed, declaring that the country would therefore be chaotic, and calling yourself cursed when you try to play anything at all lawful. You then proceed to insult women; claim ginganinja's character snubbed your character; declare your character would retreat, build up forces, call in assistance from Cheliax, then (by implication) invade and destroy the government of the new kingdom; and claim you're being screwed over and backed into a corner. You follow that up by saying that ginganinja's character would be lynched. And no, I admit I did not back you up. So yeah, you're right on that particular part.

When you had Axhammer refuse to swear fealty, yeah, we all got a bit upset, I think, and we ran you ragged up one side and down the other; I did it too. (To be fair, Corsario backed me up on this one.) However, in the third-through-fifth paragraphs of that post, I did my very level best to come up with a thematically-correct way to swear fealty, and that was to swear temporal - Earthly (or, you know, Golarionly) - fealty, loyalty in such things that are of mundane matters, reserving your character's oath in spiritual matters to his gods, as a paladin must. You disagreed. That's your right, of course, but I went further and told you how, given the previous oathtaking, your character could be released from his oath. You argued (not in so many words) that since the gods are real, and communication with them is real, a Good-aligned king should trust absolutely in priests of Lawful-Good gods. At that point I very carefully decided not to point out several items: that in medieval politics, religious figures were the most manipulative; that not every priest is going to be a cleric-class with access to spells, not to mention the god sitting on their shoulder smacking them if they go wrong; that the king therefore has to deal with real people and real politics; that just because they serve LG gods does not mean there are schisms within the gods' churches, and that this exact concept is codified into the PFRPG with the Dawnflower Dissident prestige class, which class is specifically designed 'to deal with schism and heresy within their own faith' - which means that politics even happens inside the church, much less between church and state. All of which means that a king would still need an oath of temporal fealty from his nation's clergy. After that, I tried to get everyone past your refusal; you took it as an insult, which if read in a neutral voice it wasn't.

TL;DR? I brought the RP to you, I tried to help you out on the oath-swearing thing, and I tried to get everyone over the hump and past it, to close the book on it and move the game along. The only rude comment I made above was calling you an idiot; saying you screwed yourself over is nothing but factual.

You, on the other hand, have shown yourself to be toxic - automatically assuming something is going to be bad for you, OOC complaining about such things being unfair, threatening to go away and come back with an army, taking insult were none are either said or meant, and basically being offensive and confrontational both in and out of character. We have respected your proclaimed wishes to leave you alone, yet you complain that we haven't tried to contact or look in on you despite having been busy packing up camp. (I guess you'd already done that for your portion at 3AM? Haven't looked, sorry.)

So ... no. Your facts are incorrect, your logic is flawed, and your perception is skewed. You are NOT persecuted; everything you're claiming was done to you you've done to yourself. I've tried to help you out several times; only the first was successful, after which you went off on your tirade against the Rupert/Amavin match, etc., and decided that five thousand years of human culture and history is wrong and your ideas about how medieval societies and aristocratic monarchies should work are right, without even a shred of evidence or documentation besides 'it's a fantasy world, it could be anything.'

Again, I hope you get your head screwed on straight, instead of believing against all evidence that we're out to get you. ginganinja's post above, as Ishana, is spot-on: you isolated yourself, and now you're pissed that we're not talking to you, scant hours after you told us not to come back for 24. Axhammer, Alexander, your followers, and your hirelings would - probably will - prove to be enough to tip the balance for our survival. But that isn't going to mean we're going to know anything about it unless you break your self-imposed silence. And it won't necessarily mean our characters do more than give your characters a heartfelt 'thanks for the assist' and continue to keep them at arm's length until they show they're not only willing to save our hides, but they're willing to work alongside us to further the ideals that are on the document in Antonio Verisisi's keeping.

TL;DR - I'm not against you; I never have been. IC interactions have evolved due to game play; OOC interactions have, 2 out of 3 times, been me trying to help you, and the third time is arguably the same, me trying to give you a Gibbs-slap about 'Lawful' and 'Good' and how to not play it so obsessively and restrictive. Now I'm hoping that you can look at the evidence and see that, and play with us instead of near us.


hp 49/49 AC 16, t15, ff14, saves F 9 ref 8 will 10, bab 5 melee 7 ranged 7, cmb 7, cmd 22, init +3, loh 6/6, honor 25 aasimar paladin(divine hunter)/2, monk(zen archer)/3 | cohort of Azrael the Avenger
skills:
acro 11, climb 6, craft bows 8, diplo 8, escape 8, fly 4, heal 3, intim 7, k nobility 4, k religion 5, k hist 4, k local 1, perc 10, perf sing 9, prof: soldier 9, ride 7, s mot 7, splcrft 6, stlth 6, surv 5, swim 6

sorry for my lack of posting, two issues - 1) nothing for Hareth to add really to advance the plot and 2) super busy lately, barely reading and making posts anywhere these days and this thread was one that got back-burnered a few days. Sorry again, I'll try to do better.


M Roleplayer 25 / GM 8 / Writer 18 - Neutral Annoyed - Atlanta, GA - SA: Punctuation, Spelling, Sentence Structure

Decided to move this out of the IC thread.

Corsario wrote:
Also, the monks are not being "sacrificed". They are volunteering for the job. Very brave from them.

Well, from one of them making the decision for the entire group of three hundred men, women, and adolescents. It does still suck, though; it's a bad decision that, realistically, would have a virtually guaranteed chance of several injuries, and a good chance at several deaths among the monks, if not more than that. I entirely agree with Jovich's decision to have Jasrella act exclusively on information she actually possesses, which is functionally what all of us are doing. Jasrella wants to keep Christian's 11 followers alive; that's her responsibility, and so she's following the only action that'll realistically let her do that. (It's nice to see that the Christian/Coalhouse personality clash isn't a Jovich/Wyrm personality clash. Well, hopefully. ;) )

Alysandra wants to do the same thing while also giving this maybe-kingdom as much chance of surviving as possible; she's setting herself up as a sacrificial gambit, hoping to draw Maximillian in and delay him as long as possible -- but she completely expects to be killed when Maximillian realizes she's been bullsh1tting him the entire time.

Corsario, I understand you have your rails. Please understand that you have players - several of them - who are trying to act and react as realistically as possible to the situation into which they've been placed. If I could ask a question of you, it would be 'what is so crucial about needing specifically to be next to the city?' Why is an only-two-hour head-start critical, if there are other ways to bring about the conflict you're wanting to have? If it's necessary for us to be trying to evade Maximillian's Issian troops, I've already made a couple of suggestions: we could be chased down by a 'flying column', leading to the encounter at the bridge I suggested (which is more-or-less what we're looking at here, but with the opportunity to keep us together and all be unified); or be cut off by a detachment coming down the (let's face it) only logical route out of Restov.

A retcon allowing us to get out of camp when we were trying to (at 8 AM) may put paid to Axhammer's PMs to you, but at the same time none of whatever resources he utilized would have been used; all of us would be on the road, trying to get away, together and - hopefully - relatively unified. The messengers from Maximillian could still encounter us and give us the ultimatum/message; they'd simply be scouts for whatever flying column is coming up behind us, or else for the troops coming down the South Rostland Road past Oleg's Trading Post and Fort Serenko, but either way leading to an equally-exciting/stressful two-hour race to see if we can't beat the troops to Nivakta's Crossing, where we can put up some sort of defence.

Unified, not splitting apart into four or five different groups.

But this is just my own suggestion/wish. If it's absolutely critical for your conceptualization of the game for us to have only two hours' lead time from Restov, then that's where we are - split apart into four or five different groups. Speaking as a player, I personally expect that unless a retcon is in the works, this game isn't going to last much longer, even with the handful of people who are still left.


hp 49/49 AC 16, t15, ff14, saves F 9 ref 8 will 10, bab 5 melee 7 ranged 7, cmb 7, cmd 22, init +3, loh 6/6, honor 25 aasimar paladin(divine hunter)/2, monk(zen archer)/3 | cohort of Azrael the Avenger
skills:
acro 11, climb 6, craft bows 8, diplo 8, escape 8, fly 4, heal 3, intim 7, k nobility 4, k religion 5, k hist 4, k local 1, perc 10, perf sing 9, prof: soldier 9, ride 7, s mot 7, splcrft 6, stlth 6, surv 5, swim 6

I am leaving on a retreat on Thursday the 3rd and won't be back til Sunday afternoon. I will try to keep up on my phone, but it's very hard to post using it, so please bot me as necessary to keep the game flowing. Thanks


M Roleplayer 25 / GM 8 / Writer 18 - Neutral Annoyed - Atlanta, GA - SA: Punctuation, Spelling, Sentence Structure

Sooo ... did we kill it? I see Corsario is posting elsewhere, but has our leaning-towards-realism assassinated this game, or the GM's interest in pursuing it further? Or is there talk happening and I'm just not seeing it?


Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

The following things need to happen because everyone is guilty of doing something wrong here.

1. As a GM Corsario needs to publically promote the choice he would like us to make 9to our characters) as the single best + only option, and provide information that sets character concerns with a particular situation at ease. The mess started when the players thought we had multiple options at solving the crisis - whereas we actually only had one way out - (probably fleeing) that option wasn't made out to be attractive and it led to some frustration and wasted plans. An example of promoting an option might be encouraging Jasrella that the monks will be fine. Heck, have the messengers make it clear maybe that they have a priority on (say) taking Rade, and have no interest in killing civilians. Transmitting information that we should flee, and providing positives towards this action, would help the game go forward.

2. As players, we need to be basing our decisions on sticking together. Axhammer, Alysandra, and Jasrella have both indicated they want to split from the party. Yes, they all have perfect IC reasons for doing so, but in actuality - it threatens to wreck the fabric of the game. It would be a logistical nightmare (for instance), for Jasrella to do as she hoped, sit around waiting for months for the kingdom to be created (bear in mind, this is WITHOUT a treasury), and then "escort the monks in" - this move or tactic doesn't actually help the game move forward - it fragments it and you get situations like Axhammer doing things off scene that no-one is aware of - and that helps no-one. Heck, my character would feel outright hostility towards Jarsella for her choice consciously hindering the attempts to make a new kingdom - and then showing up out of the blue when all the work had been done - and expecting things to pick up where they left off.

1&2 are linked. If there is Transparency about the *right* option, then we know what we need to do. If there is ALSO information that removes character issues with the *right* move then as players, we should be consciously trying to stick together, rather than this Fellowship of the Ring stuff we have going on.

-my 2c

Also I think our main characters being R1 in combat for like 2 weeks is also killing interest + activity.

Anyway we all need to sort this, or don't sort this and give up, I'm tired of making huge walls of text to try and save this - its getting exhausting.

Liberty's Edge

Kingmaker Exploration Map

Sorry, a lot of work and no fun makes me a dull boy. I will move the game forward shortly.
I am here, I am not going anywhere.


M Roleplayer 25 / GM 8 / Writer 18 - Neutral Annoyed - Atlanta, GA - SA: Punctuation, Spelling, Sentence Structure

Will you be addressing our questions/concerns/suggestions?


Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

I'm sure he will Wyrm, but lets give him a moment to breathe. I got swamped by work recently so I can sympathise with the feeling :)


M Roleplayer 25 / GM 8 / Writer 18 - Neutral Annoyed - Atlanta, GA - SA: Punctuation, Spelling, Sentence Structure

I'm content to wait for another few days, ginga, but the last time I waited and didn't speak up about addressing our concerns he completely ignored them. So while I entirely sympathise with the 'swamped at work' experience, I am - and will remain - concerned about the 'move the game forward' experience without a concurrent 'address our questions and concerns' experience.

Liberty's Edge

Kingmaker Exploration Map

Help me a little here...
What concern do we have? (Besides my lack of posting)


Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

Mostly just need some transparency. Many of the players believe the monks will get hurt / injured and therefore won't leave the city - so this issue needs to be dealt with. There also isn't enough transparency regarding the railroad - if there is only one option - then that needs to be made clear to our characters, and it has to be an option that we can get behind (ie more positives than negatives).


M Roleplayer 25 / GM 8 / Writer 18 - Neutral Annoyed - Atlanta, GA - SA: Punctuation, Spelling, Sentence Structure

Technically, I'm still looking for viable answers to my statements and questions here, then Jovich had concerns that started to get raised here through the end of that thread, and my post here is essentially the last of it.

While Ishana is saying we need transparency, that if it's a railroad then we need to be directed to a single option that is clearly a good one, I rather disagree, and have stated my thoughts extensively several times now.


Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

Clarifying Wyrm, that when I say we want an option that's clearly a 'good one', I'm classifying "good" as an option all players are happy with, IC and OOC. Unless you are disagreeing about something else?


M Roleplayer 25 / GM 8 / Writer 18 - Neutral Annoyed - Atlanta, GA - SA: Punctuation, Spelling, Sentence Structure

My real, unanswered issues are stated in the bottom half of this post. My issues are about realism, GM flexibility, and delicate, restrained use of GM Fiat, and far, far less to do with 'transparency.' In current practices, it's this:

The Wyrm Ouroboros wrote:

Corsario, I understand you have your rails. Please understand that you have players - several of them - who are trying to act and react as realistically as possible to the situation into which they've been placed. If I could ask a question of you, it would be 'what is so crucial about needing specifically to be next to the city?' Why is an only-two-hour head-start critical, if there are other ways to bring about the conflict you're wanting to have? If it's necessary for us to be trying to evade Maximillian's Issian troops, I've already made a couple of suggestions: we could be chased down by a 'flying column', leading to the encounter at the bridge I suggested (which is more-or-less what we're looking at here, but with the opportunity to keep us together and all be unified); or be cut off by a detachment coming down the (let's face it) only logical route out of Restov.

A retcon allowing us to get out of camp when we were trying to (at 8 AM) may put paid to Axhammer's PMs to you, but at the same time none of whatever resources he utilized would have been used; all of us would be on the road, trying to get away, together and - hopefully - relatively unified. The messengers from Maximillian could still encounter us and give us the ultimatum/message; they'd simply be scouts for whatever flying column is coming up behind us, or else for the troops coming down the South Rostland Road past Oleg's Trading Post and Fort Serenko, but either way leading to an equally-exciting/stressful two-hour race to see if we can't beat the troops to Nivakta's Crossing, where we can put up some sort of defence.

Unified, not splitting apart into four or five different groups.

But this is just my own suggestion/wish. If it's absolutely critical for your conceptualization of the game for us to have only two hours' lead time from Restov, then that's where we are - split apart into four or five different groups. Speaking as a player, I personally expect that unless a retcon is in the works, this game isn't going to last much longer, even with the handful of people who are still left.


Initiative +4, Perception +19, Cohort: Nakir

Seems the game was not updating for me. Glad I checked and their is activity again. :)

Liberty's Edge

Kingmaker Exploration Map

Perfect. Sorry for the delay, lots of work. I will restart ASAP.


hp 49/49 AC 16, t15, ff14, saves F 9 ref 8 will 10, bab 5 melee 7 ranged 7, cmb 7, cmd 22, init +3, loh 6/6, honor 25 aasimar paladin(divine hunter)/2, monk(zen archer)/3 | cohort of Azrael the Avenger
skills:
acro 11, climb 6, craft bows 8, diplo 8, escape 8, fly 4, heal 3, intim 7, k nobility 4, k religion 5, k hist 4, k local 1, perc 10, perf sing 9, prof: soldier 9, ride 7, s mot 7, splcrft 6, stlth 6, surv 5, swim 6

Too sick and depressed and terrified to game right now... expect I'll be gone a day or two while I process recent events.. I WILL be back.

Liberty's Edge

Kingmaker Exploration Map

Same here, let me try to get to the weekend alive...


Female Human Sorcerer 7
Stats:
Init +6 Perception +8

Heads up, posting might be rough over next couple of days. Magnitude 7.5 Earthquake hit NZ and I might be pulling an all nighter to volunteer on the government emergency line. Just a heads up.


Initiative +4, Perception +19, Cohort: Nakir

Ouch good luck.


male human Fighter (Aldori swordlord) 6/ Swordlord (PrC) 1

wow, no updates for me either.


male human Fighter (Aldori swordlord) 6/ Swordlord (PrC) 1
Hareth wrote:
Too sick and depressed and terrified to game right now... expect I'll be gone a day or two while I process recent events.. I WILL be back.

Why?>


hp 49/49 AC 16, t15, ff14, saves F 9 ref 8 will 10, bab 5 melee 7 ranged 7, cmb 7, cmd 22, init +3, loh 6/6, honor 25 aasimar paladin(divine hunter)/2, monk(zen archer)/3 | cohort of Azrael the Avenger
skills:
acro 11, climb 6, craft bows 8, diplo 8, escape 8, fly 4, heal 3, intim 7, k nobility 4, k religion 5, k hist 4, k local 1, perc 10, perf sing 9, prof: soldier 9, ride 7, s mot 7, splcrft 6, stlth 6, surv 5, swim 6

Sorry - don't want to discuss politics on these boards... so it doesn't belong here... let's just say I'm very depressed and disgusted by the outcome of the US election on 11/8.


Female Half-Elf Arcanist (Brown Fur) 4 | HP 32/32 | AC13 T11 FF12 | CMD 16 | F+4 R+4 W+4 (+2 to all saving throws against enchantment) |Init +2 | Perc +2 | Senses: Low Light Vision |Spells 1st - 6/6 2nd - 2/3 | Arcane Reservoir 4/11

I think, regrettably, I will need to leave this game. Over a month with no combat update is a long time, and while I'm always sympathetic that real life gets in the way, long time period breaks make it a struggle to roleplay my characters effectively and this is largely why I have made my decision.

Everyone else, best of luck!


M Roleplayer 25 / GM 8 / Writer 18 - Neutral Annoyed - Atlanta, GA - SA: Punctuation, Spelling, Sentence Structure

Willing to take the game over if Corsario feels he can't continue. Otherwise I think I'm probably going to depart here and open up my own, with at least basically the same starting point.

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