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So i'm DM'ing, and our normal DM is playing in my campaign.
Basic story - A Gnome King has given their guild a contract to clear a dungeon and free any gnomes. They have pretty much finished and are about to go back to the King next game.
Our usual DM is a mesmerist. There was a fat adolescent Troll sitting in a corner eating some gnomes, mainly as an NPC to give the PCs a clue as to what was coming up if they let him live.
Mesmerist uses diplomacy and convinces him to join party, he uses him to open a door covered in mimic glue, so now has an Iron door stuck to his arm as a tower shield.
So, in RP fashion, when they get back to the king, he's not going to be real happy seeing a troll covered in gnome blood, who was witnessed chowing down on gnomes by the survivors.
I was going to have them teleport back into a jail area and do a full trial/Troll execution/banishment from gnome kingdom.
Any other ideas? Am i being too salty?
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hmm..I don't think initially you are too far off.
BUT, if the players want this troll hanging around them, maybe have a RP session with the king (Mesmerist uses diplomacy on King) saying the troll is being "reformed/redeemed"
This could lead to a few hilarious situations (depending on how well they can redeem the Troll, or how you want the story to play out)
As well, as far as the "tower shield" does.. I believe mimic glue can be dissolved with alcohol. So shouldn't be a problem getting it off his arm. Or the Troll could just chew his arm off, and regenerate a new one =D
PS. Maybe instead of Troll covered in blood, as they walk into the Throne room, the troll is finishing licking his fingers just like he finished a bucket of fried chicken >=D
^ lol, licking his fingers just like he finished a bucket of fried chicken >=D
They actually like the door/tower shield on him for some reason. Still deciding on what i'm going to do, but that actually seems like a nice thing to do, reformed troll concept!
I don't see why the king doesn't say something along the lines of "Troll, you were witnessed eating the bodies of my people and greatly enjoying it. I sentence you to death, immediately." Even if the PC's argue against it, why would he listen to them. Troll's are typically rude, combative, and evil creatures. Intelligent sure, but without exception or compulsion magic, pretty much evil through and through.
I think your players might have forgotten what monstrous races are like. MANY of them eat intelligent creatures (not just PC races) because they specifically taste better than non-intelligent creatures, squeal and scream when you stick them with a spike, and they don't feel bad about it at all. Unless you were to play up this adolescent troll as an exception to his race, i'm not sure why the Party wants him alive exactly.
Also non-proficiency penalties for an improvised tower shield are unreal, expecially in the mechanical equivalent of a locked gauntlet :P
Why would the troll go with them in the first place? Homeland of the gnomes seems like a self-destructive place for this troll to go. He should have exerted his free will and said, "Thanks for the fun, guys, but I'm gonna go this way."
I don't see why the king doesn't say something along the lines of "Troll, you were witnessed eating the bodies of my people and greatly enjoying it. I sentence you to death, immediately." Even if the PC's argue against it, why would he listen to them. Troll's are typically rude, combative, and evil creatures. Intelligent sure, but without exception or compulsion magic, pretty much evil through and through.
This sounds like a good course of action. I'd imagine it as if say a squad of English Commandos raided a Nazi death camp, but brought back an SS officer and presented him to their commanding officers and said "oh, he's part of our squad now".
Just wouldn't happen.....Why would the troll go with them in the first place
And as he's our usual DM, he's a lot more savvy with rules and was blinding me with diplomacy rolls/mesmerist trickery :(
I think the troll must die!!!!!
Diplomacy, and even something like charm person is not mind control. Just because the troll pretty much likes them, doesn't mean he isn't still a troll and won't do troll things.
Having the troll just decide he isn't interested in going with them anymore is perfectly reasonable. I suspect in your real life you have had friends do something that you were not interested in, and so you decided not to go with them, the same can be true for NPCs that PCs have made friendly. This is doubly true if their would be danger involved.
Personally, I would probably have the troll take off. In the next session or two I would find a way to introduce a friendly NPC family somehow, do your best to make sure the PCs like them, and then a session or two after that, have the PCs find out they were killed by a wandering troll.
Alternatively though, if they do manage in some way to convince the Troll to stay with them (probably more bluff than diplomacy) indeed the Gnome king would want the troll dead. I would still probably leave open the idea that they would be able to either keep the troll out of Gnomes presence or possibly convince the king to spare his life. A troll wandering with the PCs presents endless opportunities for you.
They will have to constantly work to keep him from killing and eating innocent people, they will probably be the target of various monster hunters, and you can have a lot of fun with all the ways having a troll with you is a bad idea.
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And as he's our usual DM, he's a lot more savvy with rules and was blinding me with diplomacy rolls/mesmerist trickery :(I think the troll must die!!!!!
Diplomacy on its own can't make a creature do something completely against what it wants - if he used mesmerist mind control to force the troll, then the mesmerist might not be a very good guy in the king's eyes.
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My vote is for him to leave the party before they reach the gnome city and come back as a recurring foe/foil/problem they made and have to deal with over and over.
Intelligent sure, but without exception or compulsion magic, pretty much evil through and through.
In golarion, at least, they are capable of being productive members of at least one society - where they are information brokers.
So what you need is a way to... troll your players?
If some of the gnome prisoners saw what happened and had a chance to run on ahead then they could easily have a lynch mob whipped up. That could give the players a no-win situation without feeling too railroaded.
So what you need is a way to... troll your players?
If some of the gnome prisoners saw what happened and had a chance to run on ahead then they could easily have a lynch mob whipped up. That could give the players a no-win situation without feeling too railroaded.
This is exactly what i was thinking. I've set up when they teleport back to the Gnome King, they are in prison cells. One for the party, one for the troll. There, they will have to explain their actions to the king, then watch the troll be put to death, then banished from the Gnome kingdom.
Harsh, but fair :)
Absolutely fair. IDC if he is redeemed. Has he been punished for his actions thus far(mass murder and canabalism). Of course the king is going to be upset when the players bring him back. Probably send a troll hunting unit at him the second it gets into town. If they physically try to stop them it is reasonable to use at least nonleathal force on the players. Would note that teleporting players into prison cells implies some sort of omnicence so you might want to give the kind a wizard or crystal ball and let the players happen to see it. Trials can be fun if done right.
Just have one problem with them porting into jail -
How will the King know they're porting back to the palace with a Troll?
If this is a home game, I usually have places of importance (like palaces) warded to prevent teleportation. Prevents those assassins from porting in, killing, then porting out.
After meeting the King, they used his teleport in the courtyard to travel to the dungeon. On return, the teleport now has jail cells around it. I'm going with the "survivors have told the King, so he's prepared for their arrival" :)
I also made up 3 NPC Sorcerer Gnomes as guards with a CR80 level, incase any stupidness happens via Mesmerist. If he tried to use dominate person or diplomacy etc on the King, 1. It won't work, 2. It would probably piss the king off even more.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
... CR 80 Gnome Sorcerers? And they're in danger of a troll? o_ó
I also made up 3 NPC Sorcerer Gnomes as guards with a CR80 level....
Your world and everything but wouldn't a scroll of antimagic field be cheaper. Maybe a magical trap
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I also made up 3 NPC Sorcerer Gnomes as guards with a CR80 level
...
Am i being too salty?
...Yes.
Trolls must consume vast amounts of food each day or face starvation.
Oh this troll is redeemed you say?
Have the gnome king imprison them in a jail for a few days and see how the troll will react.
Once the hunger kicks in, it should be fun to watch.
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I'm actually at a bit of a loss over why you're so upset at the turn of events. You're the GM and have ultimate control over how NPCs act. If the troll chose to accompany the PCs then it is because you elected to have him do so -- as others have said, Diplomacy isn't mind control, even with high modifiers and rolls. I hardly think the PCs are jerks for trying to have a bit of fun and approaching the scenario in a manner that isn't solely 'kill the bad guys immediately'.
Perhaps the PCs are misguided in wanting to have a troll accompany them ( I very much think they are), but for what it is worth, I would allow the consequences of that to play out more organically than the situation you've proposed.
In my view, the situation you've prepared for back at the castle is very obviously a punishment for the PCs not playing the scenario you built in the way you planned or imagined, and I think that is a short sighted approach. As has been noted, it is unrealistic to think that the prisoners got back before the PCs, or that a kingdom with CR80(!!!) sorcerers on retainer ever needed the PCs in the first place. That approach seems far to artificial and punitive.
The beauty of this game is that PCs have the licence to be creative, and punishing that will lead to them being less creative over time.
So I would say let things play out realistically. If they return to the king with a troll in tow, have the king and his subjects react accordingly at that time (as well as the troll, who might be delighted to have been taken on a trip to the candy store). Doesn't mean the PCs won't get rewarded at all, but could be a fun role play scenario, and perhaps a fun opportunity for the mesmerist to talk the PCs out of trouble. At the very least, the PCs are likely to lose their troll buddy one way or another.
This is all just my opinion, of course, and can be freely disregarded if you disagree.
I think not having the gnomes know would be more fun. The gnomes find that the party teleports back with an incredibly dangerous monster who has been armored up. The troll finds out that his new friends just gave him a free trip to the gnome buffet. Combat should be nearly immediate, and I would not give the players much time to decide on their actions as the melee breaks out. Once the smoke has cleared, the payers can try to role play their way out of liability for the damage.
Also, if trolls are a known menace in the area, then it is perfectly reasonable to expect the king's guards to have ready access to alchemist's fire and to use it liberally against the troll with little or no concern about collateral damage.
So what you need is a way to... troll your players?
If some of the gnome prisoners saw what happened and had a chance to run on ahead then they could easily have a lynch mob whipped up. That could give the players a no-win situation without feeling too railroaded.
This is exactly what i was thinking. I've set up when they teleport back to the Gnome King, they are in prison cells. One for the party, one for the troll. There, they will have to explain their actions to the king, then watch the troll be put to death, then banished from the Gnome kingdom.
Harsh, but fair :)
This feels like a railroaded punishment. Anything where you have one character or one event just lay the smack down on them is going to come off that way, I think.
What I like about the angry mob is that they are put in a situation where they could fight their way out but don't want to since it would involve massacring relatively innocent people.
The other thing that might work is to be strict about the daily care and feeding of the troll. Rapidly ramping up the DC of diplomacy checks every day that he doesn't eat a sentient creature, having him tend to try to wander off and snack on bystanders, having to hide the troll from new people they meet or eat the diplomatic consequences, that kind of thing. It's still a little GM punitive but it's also a logical consequence of running around with a freaking troll in tow.
Trolls are one of those attack on sight monsters by intelligent races as far as I am concerned. Much less covered in the blood of sentient beings. Much less that of a king's subjects. Sounds like at least one or two of the party are either not understanding the world or desiring a very wacky zainey game.
Some ideas are hilarious laugh at them and move on. Sometimes as GM you need to ground the players in the reality of the world you are creating for them to play.
Now it looks like you have a situation that is ongoing which you need to deal with.
The really easy way- Hey guys this is not gonna work and as funny as having a troll run around with you are dealing with attack on sight grounds by pretty much anyone by traveling with a troll. This includes thr gnomes who hired you.
The easy way- The party wakes and the troll seems to be sick in a delirium the flesh around the arm of the troll with the door glued to it is looking very irritated. The troll is hot to the touch burning up with fever. The troll is pretty much crazed and lashes out at the party who can quickly beat him if they try. After a few moments of exertion it dies from infection.
The hard way- The gnome king brands them enemies of the crown and willing to kill them provided they don't surrender the creature for execution. The heroes are now the enemies of normally allied good townsfolk and are regionally wanted and pariah.
Just have one problem with them porting into jail -
How will the King know they're porting back to the palace with a Troll?
If this is a home game, I usually have places of importance (like palaces) warded to prevent teleportation. Prevents those assassins from porting in, killing, then porting out.
After meeting the King, they used his teleport in the courtyard to travel to the dungeon. On return, the teleport now has jail cells around it. I'm going with the "survivors have told the King, so he's prepared for their arrival" :)
I also made up 3 NPC Sorcerer Gnomes as guards with a CR80 level, incase any stupidness happens via Mesmerist. If he tried to use dominate person or diplomacy etc on the King, 1. It won't work, 2. It would probably piss the king off even more.
First off, NO WAY survivors would run back to the king, and inform him BEFORE a teleporting party gets there.. That's just a bad plan, and shows inexperience
THREE Sorcerers, that are CR 80?!?!?! wth.. with 3 sorcerers that level, they had no need to hire the party, and again.. wow..
If the players are set on having a pet troll, you should run with it, and make them work hard to have it. But, outright heavy-handedness, and smackdowns isn't the way to do it.
Here's how i think i would handle it:
Party teleports into king chambers... general panic ensues as there is a troll with them. Let the party try to diplomacy things to get a "neutral/stable" environment. If they do that well enough, even have the king put them in a suite or chambers, guarded of course (multiroom/ wing of castle).
Then have the troll eat a guard or two that night, with the party being the first to know..before sh*t hits the fan.. they now have to figure out what to do, as they gave the king their assurances the Troll was "domesticated/reformed" >=D
(add in more Troll licking fingers like he's done with another bucket of chicken for more effect) >=D
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how would anyone know that that blood is from a gnome from what i understand pretty much everything bleeds red for the most part.
Gnome Guard:Halt! The troll's got blood on him. Ready for battle!
PC: That's uh... Dwarven blood.Gnome Guard: Oh sorry, go right ahead!
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So i'm DM'ing, and our normal DM is playing in my campaign.
Basic story - A Gnome King has given their guild a contract to clear a dungeon and free any gnomes. They have pretty much finished and are about to go back to the King next game.
Our usual DM is a mesmerist. There was a fat adolescent Troll sitting in a corner eating some gnomes, mainly as an NPC to give the PCs a clue as to what was coming up if they let him live.Mesmerist uses diplomacy and convinces him to join party, he uses him to open a door covered in mimic glue, so now has an Iron door stuck to his arm as a tower shield.
So, in RP fashion, when they get back to the king, he's not going to be real happy seeing a troll covered in gnome blood, who was witnessed chowing down on gnomes by the survivors.
I was going to have them teleport back into a jail area and do a full trial/Troll execution/banishment from gnome kingdom.
Any other ideas? Am i being too salty?
For starters, if you didn't want the troll in the setting, you shouldn't have included it at all.
If you didn't want diplomacy to work against the troll, you could have added enough "situational" modifieries so it would never work.
But that's in the past. Now you have a troll in the party.
First, diplomacy doesn't make the troll into a slave. Free will, and such, the troll just thinks of the party as allies. Further diplomacy is needed to make "requests" of the troll, but if the troll really wants to do something, diplomacy can't stop him.
Second, the troll is definitely comic relief, given the penalties for untrained armor and shields with a tower shield. Non-proficient shield use is covered under the "armor check penalty" in the CRB. Basically, you apply the armor check penalty to attack rolls in addition to the normal armor check penalties for Str and Dex based skills. So he's -12 to attack (tower shields are normally -2 to attack and have a -10 armor check penalty). He's also at -10 to all Str and Dex based skills.
If you impose those, and the party still wants to keep him, let them. Make sure they feed him (meat, I'd suggest 1/10th of the troll's weight per day). Might need to have the party go hunting, sometimes, a great option for the GM to impose random encounters on the party.
As GM, I'd pick a favorite food for the troll, so the PCs can manage him better in crucial situations (like Scooby Snacks). You could pick Gnomes, but doing so will make your PCs spiral into the depths of evil should they be intent on keeping the troll. I suggest something rare/expensive, but not something that requires evil deeds to acquire. A specific candy, like Reeses Pieces, for example, would make a good option, as the Party couldn't create it and they'd need to stock up in town and keep them safe while traveling. Plus would give them some control, to avoid terrible situations that create TPK.
As for relations to other NPCs, you could have the PCs attempt a disguise or camouflage on the Troll, or you could just have it as a living trophy to the party's might. Even just putting a hood on the troll that makes it harder to identify as a troll (even if it doesn't disguise it as anything specific) should be enough.
Regarding the original quest, if the dungeon is cleared and any remaining gnomes are freed (eaten gnomes aren't remaining gnomes), so I think the quest is completed, from a Neutral adventurer standpoint. Not really the solution the quest giver was probably thinking of, but as long as they see the ends justifying the means, they'll probably conceded the quest rewards to the party (and never hire them again).
Assuming the troll is teleported with the pcs there is no justifiable explanation about why the gnomes wouldn't open fire on the troll immediately. Now then I do find the idea of a pet troll amusing and many of the suggestions above are good for that but it only applies so long as its alive. CR80 in 3 spellcasters is illogical for the gnomes to have and to dam heavy handed. However it is perfectly reasonable to have some pretty heavy duty guards(CR party lv+2) waiting in the shadows whenever the king meets with adventurers. Its also probably a good idea to have an antimagic throne but not every kingdom can afford that. If the players retaliate with lethal force they become forever the enemies of the kingdom. If they just defend their troll friend and it doesn't eat anyone the situation is salvageable if the players are clever. It is kind of rude for the king to know about the troll ahead of time and set a trap. However scry is a very accessible spell and if the party didn't use protection its fair game. My take is that the players are in deep even if there isn't a trap and that there is plenty of nonleathal things to bring the party down without killing them specially with gnomes
1) The party teleports into the king's presence without applying Prestidigitation to clean up? Stupid party.
2) King gnome tells party (in troll's hearing) to kill/punish the troll? Troll attacks and starts eating the king.
3) Trolls regenerate. Need special way to kill for good. Training them not to eat gnomes could be done by chopping off his head every time he salivates in sight of a gnome. Takes a day to regrow, and in the meantime, the body just twitches.
/cevah
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Assuming the troll is teleported with the pcs there is no justifiable explanation about why the gnomes wouldn't open fire on the troll immediately. Now then I do find the idea of a pet troll amusing and many of the suggestions above are good for that but it only applies so long as its alive. CR80 in 3 spellcasters is illogical for the gnomes to have and to dam heavy handed. However it is perfectly reasonable to have some pretty heavy duty guards(CR party lv+2) waiting in the shadows whenever the king meets with adventurers. Its also probably a good idea to have an antimagic throne but not every kingdom can afford that. If the players retaliate with lethal force they become forever the enemies of the kingdom. If they just defend their troll friend and it doesn't eat anyone the situation is salvageable if the players are clever. It is kind of rude for the king to know about the troll ahead of time and set a trap. However scry is a very accessible spell and if the party didn't use protection its fair game. My take is that the players are in deep even if there isn't a trap and that there is plenty of nonleathal things to bring the party down without killing them specially with gnomes
On a side note regarding teleportation. I strongly doubt that any king is going to react well to anyone teleporting directly into the throne room. It is just a really bad stratedgy to allow anyone to do this. Most castles would probably have a dedicated room where teleportation is allowed, not unlike star trek. Allowing anyone to just come and go from the castle as they please is just inviting disaster for an absolute monarchy. Even if they don't actually have the magical access to prevent teleportation, they probably have standing orders for the guards to attack any that don't appear in the designated teleport room/place.
And even there, having a location inside the castle is doubtfully an option for adventurers, as the castle teleportation room is likely intended for loyal friends of their nation only. Un aligned adventurers, doing quests for rewards, are not exactly trustworthy from a state secrets for defense standpoint. Very likely, they have a location outside the castle which the players may teleport to if they intend to use teleportation magic. A likely location would probably look like Stone Henge, or a similar design, and if expecting the players, they probably have some mounts and a few solidiers waiting for their return. Then the players would be escorted through the main gates (quickly), but with plenty of time for the castle to go on high alert if the players return with hostile intentions.
Throw them to jail and let them rot there.
I'm being serious. All their actions should have consequences and sometimes you just need to let PC die or get imprisoned (prison break is a good idea for an adventure), so in your next campaign they will start to care about their characters and their actions.
You are the Game Master.
Your problem in this game is that you allowed a player to buffalo you.
This was compounded by a party playing at murder-hoboes.
This is on you, but if there is to be retribution, make it poetic.
So, let the party discover that they were manipulated, the troll is there to make sure they take the fall for so much more than the bad things that they actually did. There will, of course, be power shifts in the Gnome Kingdom, that being the in-game point of all this.
The party will be imprisoned and held for execution, but inexplicably will find a way to freedom, alive, but oh so much poorer. Also with an insultingly low price on their heads and a reputation they will have to live down. (They might be a useful distraction later)
Don't let the player(s) buffalo you again. If the party continues to play in the same murderous style, they discover that:
They have driven off any possible allies.
They are outnumbered, one party vs one world has one inevitable conclusion.
...Using Diplomacy to turn an enemy into an ally is considered murderhoboing?
And it's the players' fault that the GM allowed something?
Huh?
Wow, totally mis-remembered the Original Post.
Somehow I mis-remembered the gnome eating as happening under the party's watch.
Totally my bad here.
The party bringing the troll in is foolish unless they are turning it in to Justice. Weirdly, the story as I noted almost works better with the party's actual lack of guilt, but is a touch cruel.