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He;'s saying that if you hair split the +3 bow gives the arrow a +3 bounus that only gets through magic DR, not cold iron or silver DR, because it's not a magic +3 arrow its simply an arrow that can go through magic DR.
Huh?
But, we know that a +3 enhancement overcomes that type of DR.
That doesn't need to be repeated.
That doesn't need to be repeated.
But the arrow doesn't have a +3 enhancement according to the hair splitters. It merely counts as DR/magic.
Okay, my question was ignored, but after reading the rules I've come to the conclusion that by RAW incorporeal creatures can't deal critical hits or precision damage to other incorporeal creatures, unless they somehow have ghost touch ability.
Its a ghost.
They touch other ghosts.
Nefreet - we agree with you. We're pointing out to the hair-splitters the additional consequences of the ridiculous notion that the arrow isn't magic and only "counts as...". After all, they're saying the arrow fired from a +3 bow *isn't* +3, and can only hurt incorporeal because of the new FAQ. After all, what you quoted only says "it applies", not what it applies to. It's ... wrong.
A ghost salt blanch'd bolt fired from a +1 crossbow does what, then?
Full damage, but incorporeal cannot be critted or sneak attacked by non-ghost-touch. The balm specifies it counts as ghost touch... wait... just how much is this balm?...
- what the hell. Ghost salt was too cheap already! That's cheaper than an oil of magic weapon! Where did... oh, ACG. Nevermind.
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Okay, my question was ignored, but after reading the rules I've come to the conclusion that by RAW incorporeal creatures can't deal critical hits or precision damage to other incorporeal creatures, unless they somehow have ghost touch ability.Its a ghost.
They touch other ghosts.
I know, and I agree with you.
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Okay, my question was ignored, but after reading the rules I've come to the conclusion that by RAW incorporeal creatures can't deal critical hits or precision damage to other incorporeal creatures, unless they somehow have ghost touch ability.Its a ghost.
They touch other ghosts.
You know that it's just a slippery slope from saying that a ghost's touch has ghost touch to saying an adamantine golem's fist counts as adamantine.
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You know that it's just a slippery slope from saying that a ghost's touch has ghost touch to saying an adamantine golem's fist counts as adamantine.Okay, my question was ignored, but after reading the rules I've come to the conclusion that by RAW incorporeal creatures can't deal critical hits or precision damage to other incorporeal creatures, unless they somehow have ghost touch ability.Its a ghost.
They touch other ghosts.
It specifically states in the Incorporeal Universal Monster Rule:
Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
Oddly enough, nowhere in the description of Incorporeal does it say that they are immune to critical hits. Maybe that language is somewhere else?
Edited to add: It is somewhere else. It's part of the Incorporeal Subtype, whereas I was looking at the Incorporeal UMR.
You know that it's just a slippery slope from saying that a ghost's touch has ghost touch to saying an adamantine golem's fist counts as adamantine.Okay, my question was ignored, but after reading the rules I've come to the conclusion that by RAW incorporeal creatures can't deal critical hits or precision damage to other incorporeal creatures, unless they somehow have ghost touch ability.Its a ghost.
They touch other ghosts.
SSSSSSHHHHHHH!!!!! no no no
The imp of the perverse in me compels me to add fuel to the fire.
Per the holy weapon balm description cited by Tamec: "Any magic weapon coated with the balm affects incorporeal undead or evil outsiders as if the weapon had the ghost touch special ability." It does not say whether the weapon had to be magic at the time the balm was applied, so that suggests to me that the condition is checked at the time the weapon is used. For example, if you applied the balm to a mundane sword and then someone cast magic weapon on it, I would suggest that it is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of the balm's effect for as long as both are running at the same time. Thus the issue becomes whether an arrow fired from a magic bow is considered as magical for conditions other than bypassing DR/incorporeal. Personally, I think it should be considered as magical for this purpose, but I can see where a precise reading of the base rules and the FAQ would say I'm wrong.
For those who feel that a mundane arrow fired from a magic bow is not itself magical, how would the arcane archer's enhance arrows class feature ("At 1st level, every nonmagical arrow an arcane archer nocks and lets fly becomes magical, gaining a +1 enhancement bonus.") interact with holy weapon balm? Since the balm is applied before the arrow is fired, is the effect treated as if the arrow is mundane, even though it is magical when it hits the target?
Huh?He;'s saying that if you hair split the +3 bow gives the arrow a +3 bounus that only gets through magic DR, not cold iron or silver DR, because it's not a magic +3 arrow its simply an arrow that can go through magic DR.But, we know that a +3 enhancement overcomes that type of DR.
That doesn't need to be repeated.
Actually, nothing states that the ranged weapon confers its enhancement bonus onto the ammunition; the bow is +3, but the arrow it fires is not. The only thing the rules say is this:
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.The text under "Overcoming DR" on page 562 is word-for-word identical, save for adding "(in addition to any alignment it may already have)" at the end.
Since the arrow itself doesn't have any enhancement bonus (because the rules don't say that it does, only that it counts as magic for overcoming DR, and has the same alignment), the arrow wouldn't overcome DR as a +3 weapon would; it would just overcome DR /magic, as well as any alignment the bow might have. It wouldn't overcome cold iron or silver DR, unless the ammo was cold iron or silver (and my example said no special materials.
Again, I'm not saying that this is how it's supposed to work, I'm just saying that this is the hair-splitting interpretation.
So now I am confused if nothing carries over to the arrow then is the arrow anything more than DR penetration? Do properties such as flaming or holy deal extra damage or are they only checked for things like DR and Regeneration?
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Talonhawke, we (most of us) are pointing out just how much interpretation is assumed in the rules. If you fire a normal arrow from a +3 flaming bow, you have a +3 flaming arrow. If you shoot a +1 Holy arrow, you have a +3 flaming holy arrow. It's simple. Some argue otherwise. We are pointing out the absurdity of requiring the text to spell out everything.
Talonhawke, we (most of us) are pointing out just how much interpretation is assumed in the rules. If you fire a normal arrow from a +3 flaming bow, you have a +3 flaming arrow. If you shoot a +1 Holy arrow, you have a +3 flaming holy arrow. It's simple. Some argue otherwise. We are pointing out the absurdity of requiring the text to spell out everything.
I know but looking I actually can't even find rules that flaming would transfer over.
It's in the chart actually - "Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition.".
Just so everyone is clear, we *all* agree on how it should/does work.
oil of spirit bound blade.