Retraining to the Same thing.


Rules Questions


Ok so I am making a Magusand am going be getting Extra Arcana pretty early on in order to get Spell Blending.

Later on though, once I get a higher max spell level I want to retrain my Spell Blending into Spell Blending for the spells of one lower then my my max spell level. This way I can get more spells using arcana I already have. However this leads me to multiple questions.

1) Is this even possible?

2) Will I have to retrain the feat rather then the arcana?

3) Can I retrain by myself to do this, if I have a spellbook with the spells I want?

4) Can I replace spells in my spellbook, or will I have to take out a page since I can't cast that spell anymore?

Scarab Sages

Never been clear how the retraining works for feats that grant class features.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ask you GM if you can do it and how it works.


Retraining generally has to be into something you could have taken at the time the option being replaced was taken.


Curghann wrote:

Retraining generally has to be into something you could have taken at the time the option being replaced was taken.

You are explicitly allowed to retrain into a feat that you would not have been eligible for at the time that you originally took the feat, but which you now qualify for. I believe that this also holds true for class features (such as magus arcana, barbarian rage powers, etc)


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

From PRD:

Quote:
Retraining a class feature means you lose the old class feature and gain a new one that you could otherwise qualify for at that point in your level advancement. For example, if you want to retrain your paladin's fatigued mercy (which she gained at 3rd level), you can replace it only with another mercy from the 3rd-level list. If at 6th level you learned the sickened mercy (which is on the 3rd-level list), you may replace it with a mercy from the 3rd- or 6th-level list (because you are replacing a 6th-level mercy slot which you spent on a 3rd-level mercy)

So retraining the arcana itself is a no-go due to that. Retraining the feat may work as feats have no such restrictions, but that will be largely up to your GM to determine (they may view it as cheese or attempting to weasel around the class feature restrictions). By RAW though retraining the feat should work (I'd allow it at my table, at any rate)

3 and 4 are up to your GM to determine. By RAW retraining a feat requires a trainer, with no provision if you already have the feat, and the rules are silent on your last question. At my table the old spell would remain in your spellbook even though you are now unable to cast it, and the new spell would consume new pages. This is because absent any rule saying that retraining allows one to rewrite their spellbook, I assume due to the permissive nature of the rules that one cannot.


Feat retraining is explicitly addressed (and allowed) in this FAQ:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gn#v5748eaic9r9h

The point about the example of the Paladin's mercies is a very good one - thanks for the reminder.

I'm uncertain what this means for, e.g., a rage power or a magus arcana. Can a barbarian who takes, say, Animal Fury at level 2, retrain it to Come and Get Me at level 12? I had always thought the answer was yes but now rereading the point about the Paladin's mercies I'm less sure.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

For a rage power or magus arcana granted through level progression in the barbarian or magus class, the restriction I quoted applies (e.g. can't replace Animal Fury with Come and Get Me in your level 2 rage power slot). There is a grey area for feats that grant the features, but I think those are not covered by my quote due to the FAQ on retraining feats, so you can retrain that feat to select a different option at your current level.


To clarify (as I think I confused people with the staying in spell book thing), I plan to keep the same spell I had before, however if I can retrain to get the same arcana then I will retrain it when I have a higher spell level, thus I can get an extra spell without having to get a new arcana.

So I am retraining the Arcana in order to let me cast the exact same spell, but since it is now below my spell level I get another spell. I am technically not retraining to something that is unavailable at the time, but the affect of the arcana changes due to learning it at a higher level. From what I am reading it sounds like this is possible as long as I keep the original spell, but I just want to make sure that is what is being said.


I think the quote is clear, if you decide to retrain you do so as if you were at the level in which you got the feat.
So as a GM I would rule no you do not get an extra spell with the retraining as the spell you selected would depend on the level you acquired the feat in the first place.
But if you took spell Blending again at a higher level then it would depend on that level. So in that case yes you would get the higher level spell bonus (ie extra spell)
MDC

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Only feats (from levels) can be retrained using current prerequisites. Everything else including feats for classes need to be chosen from what they could be at that level of class.


James Risner wrote:
Only feats (from levels) can be retrained using current prerequisites. Everything else including feats for classes need to be chosen from what they could be at that level of class.

Doesn't that contradict itself or are you saying that if the feat gives you a class feature then you can't retrain it using current prerequisites?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I'm saying that if you gained the feat from 1st level feat, human bonus feat, or any feat that is unrestricted. Then you can retrain it with no restrictions to current prereqs.

If you gain the feat and it is restricted, then it's still restricted to how it would have been when you gained it without current features.


To explain it another way...

At level 5, Magus gets two feats. One, the feat everybody gets due to hitting level 5. The other, a bonus feat provided by the Magus class, that you must specifically pick up a combat, metamagic, or item creation feat with.

Even if you get combat feats with both of them, which feat you picked up with which feature matters.

The feat from level, if retrained, can be retrained into anything you currently meet the prerequisites for. For example, you could retrain it into Weapon Specialization, once you're level 10 and have Fighter Training.

The feat from class, if retrained, can be retrained only into things you qualified for while you were a level 5 Magus. You cannot get Weapon Specialization, because level 5 magi cannot.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Retraining to the Same thing. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.