Coup De Grace Spellstrike


Rules Questions


I found a combo that would be best if one crits. Well since this combo involves a helpless body I was wondering can one Coup De Grace with Spellstrike?


It should be possible. You can generally make touch attacks as a weapon hit, so attacking with your weapon in a coup de grace should allow you to discharge a touch charge through spellstrike.

Note that you can't cast the spell as part of the coup de grace action itself. You have to cast the spell on a previous round, and hold the charge.


Saethori wrote:

It should be possible. You can generally make touch attacks as a weapon hit, so attacking with your weapon in a coup de grace should allow you to discharge a touch charge through spellstrike.

Note that you can't cast the spell as part of the coup de grace action itself. You have to cast the spell on a previous round, and hold the charge.

Well tbh it's not a spell it's Pool Strike. Using Pool Strike, Arcing if I crit with the first Pool Strike, I crit with all. Thus I deal Coup De Grace damage to surrounding people.

So can I hold a charge of Pool Strike for a Coupe De Grace?


Pool Strike specifically says you can hold its charge, and that you can use it with Spellstrike. You still need to charge it beforehand, but otherwise it should work.

Getting enough enemies within 15 feet of you, while you're setting up an unconscious or tied up friend of theirs to be ritually murdered, however, is left as the hard part.


Saethori wrote:

Pool Strike specifically says you can hold its charge, and that you can use it with Spellstrike. You still need to charge it beforehand, but otherwise it should work.

Getting enough enemies within 15 feet of you, while you're setting up an unconscious or tied up friend of theirs to be ritually murdered, however, is left as the hard part.

Well I was planning on loading him up with Fireballs using Spell Scars. Use these to knock out some people then Coup De Grace one of them, target the weak link! Though he does have an ally who could work as a last ditch effort for the set up but can the Ally be voluntarily helpless?


It should be possible to be voluntarily helpless.

However, why somebody would willingly sit still and let you do something to them that is almost certain death is another question; that's typically out of reach of even Dominate magic.


Saethori wrote:

It should be possible to be voluntarily helpless.

However, why somebody would willingly sit still and let you do something to them that is almost certain death is another question; that's typically out of reach of even Dominate magic.

They're an evil Phoenix who I tortured into submission and hatred towards others! Would rather die then let others survive.

I'm GM by the way, but I like it if my characters for the story can work outside of story, as sometimes I like playing them in normal games.


How about a bandolier of bound rats to use as CdG targets?


Don't move, or the rat gets it!

But really, what did rats ever do to you?

Still, bound rats is a good idea, as cruel as it is. Round one, draw a rat as a move, drop the rat as a free, prepare a pool strike as a standard. Round two, coup de grace the rat with your weapon, make ranged touch attacks against a bunch of enemies within 15 feet for 8d6, and presumably the rat explodes violently.


Saethori wrote:

Don't move, or the rat gets it!

But really, what did rats ever do to you?

Still, bound rats is a good idea, as cruel as it is. Round one, draw a rat as a move, drop the rat as a free, prepare a pool strike as a standard. Round two, coup de grace the rat with your weapon, make ranged touch attacks against a bunch of enemies within 15 feet for 8d6, and presumably the rat explodes violently.

Can I target bugs instead? Even better (for this guys purposes) is there some sort of thing that devours books or just something that multiplies quickly, though I guess rats work if all else fails.


No it would not arc to other creatures. Well the pool strike would, but coup de grace damage wouldn't unless those within 15 feet would all have the 'helpless' condition on them too. (Which is a requirement for coup d'grace to apply)

If they're all helpless, then yes. If not, only the helpless creature gets it, apply normal damage to those within 15 feet. Damage from coup d'grace do not apply to them as they do not fulfill the requirement.

Also a coup d'grace being a full round action is not the same as a ranged touch attack, so it would not qualify for the arcing to work come to think of it. (by RAW)


Arcing Pool Strike wrote:

Prerequisite: Magus 12, pool strike magus arcana

Benefit: The magus can expend 1 additional point from his arcane pool when using the pool strike arcana. If his attack hits, the magus can target a number of enemies within 15 feet equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 0) with a ranged touch attack as a free action. Those struck take the same energy damage as the primary target of the pool strike, including increased damage on a critical hit.

You hit the rat. You critical the rat. You roll critical damage for the Pool Strike. (Reminder: it's always 2x for the spell half of a spellstrike.) Then you roll a ranged touch against each enemy within 15 feet (up to your limit). Each enemy struck takes exactly as much energy damage as you dealt to the rat, crit and all.

The critical being from a coup de grace is actually unimportant to this combo, it's just a guaranteed, yet convoluted, critical hit. So I'm not sure where the ideas that the other enemies need be helpless, or that weapon damage arcs to them, or that it's a ranged touch because it's a coup de grace for some reason, all came from.


Okay, reading back, by RAW you might be right. But the coup d'grace was never meant to be used in this combination and I for sure wouldn't let it fly at my table. Sacrificing helpless bound rodents specifically for this purpose to strike and then hit enemies with it that happen to stand nearby. Not in the spirit of how that magus ability was intended for sure.

Just cause you found a loophole the developers didn't think of doesn't mean it should work like that.

Bonus points for cheeze though.


I do agree, I would not allow it to work in the case of ritually sacrificing rats. (The Phoenix example, on the other hand, I would award special circumstances to.)

Most, if not all players and GMs are aware of Rule Zero, so its existence need not be cited in order to discuss the interactions of other rules.


So as GM you wouldn't allow the rats, but perhaps a character already unconscious? To be honest, I would rather not kill the rats anyway, no this guy isn't completely senseless murderer, though they are an interesting idea. As for the "just happen to stand near by", I planned to teleport in or airdrop myself via Fly spell or Phoenix. Also I assume dead does not count as helpless, so you can't Coup De Grace a dead opponent?

Anyway, that takes care of when I play this character as a normal one. Though as a GM probably a good idea to avoid the rats encase any of my players get any ideas. Thanks for the help BTW.


Well, it's tricky on what parts to allow and what parts not to.

Using rats as spell grenades is definitely cheesy, but normal unconscious people aren't that easy to set up (other than making them on the fly in combat).

In general, I don't think the combo is so powerful as to warrant too much limiting. You have to be level 12 to pull off what amounts to 8d6 damage in a 15 foot radius, for the cost of two arcane pool points. For the same cost of arcane pool points, you could just cast an Intensified Fireball (12d6 in a larger radius, Reflex instead of ranged touch), then use Improved Spell Recall to get the spell slot back.


What if you otherwise took really good care of the rats? Like you kept them all tightly bound in your bandoleer, but you regularly fed them, cleaned up after them, gave them each individual names, spoke very nicely to them, and after "using" them, you offer up a little prayer on their behalf, telling the nature gods or whatever what a good job little Muffin did and praying that he gets all the cheese he wants in his ratty afterlife. Then would it be OK?


Saethori wrote:

Well, it's tricky on what parts to allow and what parts not to.

Using rats as spell grenades is definitely cheesy, but normal unconscious people aren't that easy to set up (other than making them on the fly in combat).

In general, I don't think the combo is so powerful as to warrant too much limiting. You have to be level 12 to pull off what amounts to 8d6 damage in a 15 foot radius, for the cost of two arcane pool points. For the same cost of arcane pool points, you could just cast an Intensified Fireball (12d6 in a larger radius, Reflex instead of ranged touch), then use Improved Spell Recall to get the spell slot back.

The original idea I admit is not as great as Intensified Fireballs. However it turned into a way to make almost 100% sure the person dies, while still dealing damage to surrounding people. Now with rats it became more of a spell bomb and after reading what you said perhaps that is not the best way to use it, but it can still be used for the purpose of removing a person from play while harming surrounding enemies.

So do you have any ideas on how to improve on this combo? Maybe a way to add effects to the attack or deal more damage in a way? I am planning Mono-Magus if that helps.


I'd just not allow the Coup d'grace statement of 'critical' to be used in combination with the magus described power. Not even a paralyzed or unconcious person (also eligable ways to do a coup d'grace)

It's just something the developer of the magus power didn't think of at the time of writing and should be errated.

And in the case of the fireball example... it allows a reflex save... for half damage... or no damage if you have evasion.

You either get to coup d'grace the helpless critter/person... or you do something else to deal with the immediate threat... just not both at the same time (as it allows no save or nothing).

If you want to do both... roll that critical hit on an attack as it was intended.


Scavenger1977 wrote:

Okay, reading back, by RAW you might be right. But the coup d'grace was never meant to be used in this combination and I for sure wouldn't let it fly at my table. Sacrificing helpless bound rodents specifically for this purpose to strike and then hit enemies with it that happen to stand nearby. Not in the spirit of how that magus ability was intended for sure.

Just cause you found a loophole the developers didn't think of doesn't mean it should work like that.

Bonus points for cheeze though.

The bag of rats cheese has been around for forever, and is the cause for many otherwise nice toys being taken away. I would disallow it as a house rule.

Mechanically, I would allow the PC to coup de grace helpless opponents. The repercussions for playing such a blatantly evil character would come in-game.

As this is the GM playing an evil NPC, have fun with it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Since it hasn't been mentioned, remember Coup de grace provokes an AoO.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Coup De Grace Spellstrike All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.