Should you let players make golems? -Morality


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


In was wondering if players should make golems. I don't mean in terms of economy or power balance, but in terms of morality.

The secret ingredient to golems is a bound Earth Elemental. Now you don't literally need to do this, but it's the flavor. Abducting an innocent creature and enslaving it to a foreign vessel to serve your whims. Tey can go crazy and make the golem berserk.

I thought it'd be an interesting discussion topic. Is making golems evil? I'm on team evil, but I want to see what you guys think.


With this flavor I would say the person that makes the construct, makes an agreement with the outsider and sets like a time when the outsider would be free and he could give him a reward after it is done.


No, it's not evil. 'Abducting' and 'enslaving' aren't correct terms. Nothing says that it's not voluntarily.


Could someone quote the passage about golems? I'm on my phone so I can't.


If I recall, there was a line of comics, set in the Realms, where a golem was powered by the soul of a warrior who wanted to keep on fighting the good fight, similar to the puppets in Puppet Master 3. So, it need not be involuntary....


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Not all golems risk going berserk either. If you posit that, that is evidence of immoral enslavement, then does that not also imply that making some golems is immoral, and others not?


Ravingdork wrote:
Not all golems risk going berserk either. If you posit that, that is evidence of immoral enslavement, then does that not also imply that making some golems is immoral, and others not?

I would imagine the vessel is weaker, or the magic not as strong. They might go equally be insane yet still be imprisoned.

Sorry if I sound rude at all. I do appreciate and enjoy this. I mean who could say no to nerd philosophy.


Eberron must be a very, very amoral place with all that elemental binding going on...


Carson Jarroc wrote:
Eberron must be a very, very amoral place with all that elemental binding going on...

A bunch of elementals got enslaved and imprisoned, and a few years later the Day of Mourning happened.

Just putting it out there...


I've seen people suggest it could be voluntary,so what would compel an elemental to willingly bind himself? Is it the elemental equivelant of selling your soul to a devil?


MageHunter wrote:

In was wondering if players should make golems. I don't mean in terms of economy or power balance, but in terms of morality.

The secret ingredient to golems is a bound Earth Elemental. Now you don't literally need to do this, but it's the flavor. Abducting an innocent creature and enslaving it to a foreign vessel to serve your whims. Tey can go crazy and make the golem berserk.

I thought it'd be an interesting discussion topic. Is making golems evil? I'm on team evil, but I want to see what you guys think.

Does the Earth Elemental have to be bound? I could very easily have a Druid cast Summon Nature's Ally II (or above) to create an Earth Elemental to provide the apparent component.

On top of that, that sort of flavor doesn't apply to every golem. A Flesh Golem, for example, would be very strange if its core was made entirely of Earth instead of body parts. There's also the factor that Elementals are sentient, whereas Golems are not so much sentient, than they are programmed (though some form of programming can be akin to that of sentience, as evidenced by today's robotics, as well as the future idealisms of circuitry).

It ultimately depends on what type of golem it is, and how it is that the golem is being created. I'd say that using body parts of slain enemies (or even dead allies) to create a Flesh Golem is certainly Evil.


Elementals seem to be pretty much immortal if they don't die by violence (at least, you run across a lot of "an elemental was bound to XX a few hundred years ago"...), so for them, maybe potential payments are worth the time they'd spend.


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The way I read it you use the life force as a "battery", so their soul (and as an outsider their essence) is trapped, freed sometimes causing a berserk.

Bad Joke:
Does the paladin fall if the wizard makes a golem?


Got on my computer. Here we go!

Golems entry wrote:
Golems are magically created automatons of great power. They stand apart from other constructs in the nature of their animating force—golems are granted their magical life via an elemental spirit, typically that of an earth elemental. The process of creating a golem binds the spirit to the artificial body, merging it with this specially prepared vessel and subjecting it to the will of the golem's creator.

Do with that as you will. I view that rather negatively, but maybe it's just the word "subjecting"

Incidentally I said Earth Elemental, but other elementals may be used as well, I don't know how much that'd change anything but still handy to know.


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Plenty of good wizards in the lore with golem servitors, sometimes almost a battalion of them, so I would say that it is moral... and that's just in Pathfinder, where raising a soulless carcass as a zombie to go tend a field that feeds an orphanage is evil because reasons.


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In case it matters, James Jacobs flavour take on Golem Morality.

James Jacobs wrote:
Tels wrote:

Why is golem crafting not evil?

You basically kidnap an elemental spirit from it's home plane, strip it's soul from it's body, torture it until it loses it's mind, imprison it in some man-made shell, and then enslave it to follow your commands.

Bestiary - Golem wrote:

Golems are magically created automatons of great power. They stand apart from other constructs in the nature of their animating force—golems are granted their magical life via an elemental spirit, typically that of an earth elemental. The process of creating a golem binds the spirit to the artificial body, merging it with this specially prepared vessel and subjecting it to the will of the golem's creator.

Being mindless, golems do nothing without orders from their creators. They follow instructions explicitly and are incapable of complex strategy or tactics. A golem's creator can command it if the golem is within 60 feet and can see and hear its creator. If uncommanded, a golem usually follows its last instruction to the best of its ability, though if attacked it returns the attack. The creator can give the golem a simple command to govern its actions in his absence, or can order the golem to obey the commands of another, but the golem's creator can always resume control by commanding the golem to obey him alone.

If I were designing the game, and if I were making that call, I would do one of the following:

1) Make golem crafting evil, because it requires the enslavement of a spirit.

2) Change the flavor of how you animate the golem to something less evil sounding.

Golem crafting is not evil because that bit slipped by the designers edition after edition, essentially. I have not yet been a designer of an edition, but addressing this discontinuity is something I would like to see cleaned up. It's not something that'll happen now though.

Enslaving something that lives (nearly) forever (at least to me) is evil.


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It's not detectably evil.
Their mindlessness suggests their life force is made of elemental background energy. Also, their minds might just be unratable.

A spell I posted several places is Spiritual Freedom. If the Golem or other bound spirit has their vessel fail the save, they can run riot for the duration. Ask yourself, what would an elemental of that hit dice do?

If someone made an Iron Golem with that spell, it would probably act like a hack and slash fighter.


If the golemancer could make succinct diplomacy checks to get the elemental to voluntarily pledge services I would say its neutral. Otherwise its probably evil in golarion.

That said, barring paladins/codes I don't think a GM should restrict player choices on his/her own morality. Just add in consequences, be they good or bad.


Elemental often don't actually seem to care much to do anything. I mean, they are rare manifestations in an elemental plane but often end up kinda just...not doing anything with their apparent sentience. So there is a possibility that you bind an Earth Elemental in a golem and it just sort of does what it did on the elemental plane of earth. Not much. And just lets the golem take it for a ride. It just doesn't care.

Take from that what you will.


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Is this "elemental spirit" inherently sentient? Not every "living" thing is sentient, and plenty of creatures are mindless. Are there mindless "elementals" on their respective planes? Masses of nonsentient animated energy?

The "Awaken Construct" spell suggests that such a thing might be the case:

Awaken Construct wrote:


You amplify the animating force of a construct to more closely resemble a true soul, granting the construct humanlike sentience.

Whether that bit of fluff applies to golems is another thing, but whatever force is used to animate most constructs, it's neither sentient, nor truly a "soul".


These justifications feel a bit like evil excuses to me...

But let's stop before we get into animal rights.

Earth elementals are sentient, not that I'm sure they do nothing, but I get there may be other creatures.


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Elementals are not humans and don't have human like thinking. There is no telling what some individual elemental wants. An earth elemental who just wants to sit around like a big rock forever, and do nothing isn't likely to care if they end up in a golem. They weren't doing anything anyway. Also you might talk an earth elemental into going into a golem because it looks pretty or the spirit or something. Maybe it thinks it would be cool, like getting a new car.

I would say it is up to the GM. If you are the GM I would ask the player how they are trying to get the elemental to agree. If they force it into it, then you might judge it evil, and if they talk them into it, then it might be good or neutral. I would give them the choice to do it though and if they are trying to negotiate I would suggest allowing them to negotiate. Nothing says you have to make it easy, but they should have a chance. Maybe the earth elemental agrees but wants the golem made out of a special kind of rock or something, could open up a quest.

Too much going on to just say it is good or evil. At the end of the day have to look at the specific case and make a judgement call.


Considering all four elemental planes in Golarion are run by creatures of abject evil I'd suggest that the implication is that taking away some of their potential tools and weapons isn't such a bad thing to do.

Either that or in terms of mortality, Elementals just think in different terms, being immortal creatures. So the imprisonment passes fairly quickly for them even if its aeons.

So its less like being hauled into a van and dragged off to The Happy Funtime Dungeon (tm) that someone has in their basement for the rest of your life and more like being nudged into a taxi, driven around for 5 minutes and then left within walking distance of your home, mildly irritating rather than horrific.


Ventnor wrote:
Carson Jarroc wrote:
Eberron must be a very, very amoral place with all that elemental binding going on...

A bunch of elementals got enslaved and imprisoned, and a few years later the Day of Mourning happened.

Just putting it out there...

A guy I knew once bought a used car. BLAM! Twenty years later, he got herpes. [/familyguy]


KahnyaGnorc wrote:
If I recall, there was a line of comics, set in the Realms, where a golem was powered by the soul of a warrior who wanted to keep on fighting the good fight, similar to the puppets in Puppet Master 3. So, it need not be involuntary....

She was a dwarf bound to an iron golem, and the wizard was her former lover.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I guarantee you that if you did a quick search around the internet, you could find real world people who would willingly let themselves be bound up as the animating force of a golem in this manner. People are weird and can have really odd desires.

Given that, the idea that magic could find a willing elemental doesn't seem too far fetched.


I wonder if this is really the right question to ask. Elementals have been portrayed as mindless, primal beings, acting only in accordance with their element. They do not have souls. They do have an animating force, but apart from that, they are their element itself only. Is it even relevant to talk about the will of an elemental? The wind does not blow because it wants to, but because it is. If this is true, why would it be slavery?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I remember reading in a rulebook somewhere (Eberron maybe?) that elementals, although sentient, didn't think anything like mortals. Fire elementals were happy so long as they got to burn stuff. Air elementals were content with blowing through the air. Earth elementals sat or rolled. Water elementals flowed about.

In short, it doesn't take much to make one content and it is absolutely conceivable that they would be fine animating a golem--especially if it allowed them to continue doing what they were doing anyways.


... I wish I was an earth elemental...


MageHunter wrote:
These justifications feel a bit like evil excuses to me...

People are frighteningly good at excusing convention without even realizing it.

Golem-making and -commanding have no moral consequences because 1) unlike the D&D golem, the mythological golem is a benevolent protector ensouled by wise rabbis, and 2) golems are not icky or scary like undead are. And as JJ says below, nobody with their name on the inside cover of a MM has thought much about it.

Philosophically, making and commanding golems in D&D probably ought to be evil, given the default fluff about binding earth spirits who occasionally go berserk.

James Jacobs wrote:
Tels wrote:

Why is golem crafting not evil?

You basically kidnap an elemental spirit from it's home plane, strip it's soul from it's body, torture it until it loses it's mind, imprison it in some man-made shell, and then enslave it to follow your commands.

Bestiary - Golem wrote:

Golems are magically created automatons of great power. They stand apart from other constructs in the nature of their animating force—golems are granted their magical life via an elemental spirit, typically that of an earth elemental. The process of creating a golem binds the spirit to the artificial body, merging it with this specially prepared vessel and subjecting it to the will of the golem's creator.

Being mindless, golems do nothing without orders from their creators. They follow instructions explicitly and are incapable of complex strategy or tactics. A golem's creator can command it if the golem is within 60 feet and can see and hear its creator. If uncommanded, a golem usually follows its last instruction to the best of its ability, though if attacked it returns the attack. The creator can give the golem a simple command to govern its actions in his absence, or can order the golem to obey the commands of another, but the golem's creator can always resume control by commanding the golem to obey him alone.

If I were designing the game, and if I were making that call, I would do one of the following:

1) Make golem crafting evil, because it requires the enslavement of a spirit.

2) Change the flavor of how you animate the golem to something less evil sounding.

Golem crafting is not evil because that bit slipped by the designers edition after edition, essentially. I have not yet been a designer of an edition, but addressing this discontinuity is something I would like to see cleaned up. It's not something that'll happen now though.

Wait, haven't JJ & Co in fact been the designers of a new edition? Or was this comment written pre-PF?


I have viewed golems as like robots and the elementals bound within them as like software. Therefore neither the elemental or the golem count as being sentient.

Although after reading the posts in this thread I find the concept of convincing or enslaving an elemental or other spirit to create a golem is a more interesting idea with more RP possibilities.

Liberty's Edge

Yes to allowing players to make Golems and no it's not a evil act imo.

One can make it so in a home game. Or a one shot where a evil npc uses the soul of a another npc to make a sentient version. With the creature asking to be saved. Or the players witnessing that it's no longer a object but one with a living creature in it. Decide to save it. Whether the owner or even the Golem wishes it to be saved.

I tend to frown on games both as a player and DM where too much morality. Espcially modern morality is added. Players can't craft magic items because morally it might put the average shop owner out of business. And so on and so on. After awhile it feels like walking on eggs shells at the gaming table.


Sissyl wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Carson Jarroc wrote:
Eberron must be a very, very amoral place with all that elemental binding going on...

A bunch of elementals got enslaved and imprisoned, and a few years later the Day of Mourning happened.

Just putting it out there...

A guy I knew once bought a used car. BLAM! Twenty years later, he got herpes. [/familyguy]

Look, do you want to buy my Tiger-Repelling Rock or not?


IMO, it's no better than making undead. What I did for my games was to remove the connection to elementals. The beserk chance is now due to the magic not being stable.


Well the Xorn is greedy. An earth elemental animating dirt might want to smear dirt all over everything. Made of stone it might want to crush everything.

As for evil elemental gods, maybe Mother Earth(Gaia) was originally the good earth elemental god.


I can only assume it's not an earth elemental, but just sorta quasi-essence of an elemental that hasn't formed yet or something, since there is no magic in the construction of any golem that actually involves interaction with an elemental.

Quote:
I wonder if this is really the right question to ask. Elementals have been portrayed as mindless, primal beings, acting only in accordance with their element. They do not have souls. They do have an animating force, but apart from that, they are their element itself only. Is it even relevant to talk about the will of an elemental? The wind does not blow because it wants to, but because it is. If this is true, why would it be slavery?

That is a rather strange portrayal since Elementals are more intelligent than animals, and they do have souls by definition of being an outsider.


Milo v3 wrote:

I can only assume it's not an earth elemental, but just sorta quasi-essence of an elemental that hasn't formed yet or something, since there is no magic in the construction of any golem that actually involves interaction with an elemental.

Quote:
I wonder if this is really the right question to ask. Elementals have been portrayed as mindless, primal beings, acting only in accordance with their element. They do not have souls. They do have an animating force, but apart from that, they are their element itself only. Is it even relevant to talk about the will of an elemental? The wind does not blow because it wants to, but because it is. If this is true, why would it be slavery?
That is a rather strange portrayal since Elementals are more intelligent than animals, and they do have souls by definition of being an outsider.

It is actually an Elemental. Many spells that involve undead dont actually involve interactions with a soul, but that soul is still trapped when the undead is created.


The animating force is not always an earth elemental. I remember a certain glass golem animated by an imprisoned alu demon.

The golem did retain basic functionality even with the demon released.


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I think Alphonse Elric would count as a human spirit golem. Even perhaps a willing one, given how he came to be bound.

/cevah


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Living creatures all have an animating spirit, a "soul" trapped within them.

All Life is Evil.


wraithstrike wrote:
It is actually an Elemental. Many spells that involve undead dont actually involve interactions with a soul, but that soul is still trapped when the undead is created.

1. There are undead without souls, like skeletons and zombies.

2. If the soul was really trapped it would mean you could kill outsiders via animating undead.
3. You can make multiple undead from one dead person.
4. Necromancy means it can be interacting with souls.
5. None of the spells involved in golem creation have any justification to conjure an elemental transform it into an incorporeal state, since the souls of elementals are solid by definition of being an outsider.


VRMH wrote:

Living creatures all have an animating spirit, a "soul" trapped within them.

All Life is Evil.

Destroy the shell, free the spirit. Rovagug is just Milani with bad PR.

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