Grapple penalties to grapple attempts?


Rules Questions


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple.

I think the intent of the rules is that you don't take a penalty to grapple YOUR GRAPPLER, or to escape YOUR GRAPPLER, but I feel like you should take the penalty when trying to grapple SOMEONE ELSE. Does anybody know if there is any support to this theory?

(This came up in our game because a monster got grappled by a black tentacles spell, and the monster wants to grapple a nearby PC in turn.)


An interesting idea. I've never seen any rules stating that somebody who was grappled can't grapple a different target.

While the rules don't say anything on this, including the matter of the -2 penalty on attacks other than grapples, I would like to point out that, for humanoid targets, not having both hands free (as tends to happen when grappled) imposes a -4 penalty to grapples.


Good point, and a good RAI argument, but as are fully aware: them are the RAW.


A person who is Grappled cannot be grappled by someone else: they can only Aid Another the original grappler!

That means that if the party Wizard casts Black Tentacles and gets me, and if I then grapple the bad guy, that bad guy cannot Grapple me in return, at least not to gain control of the Grapple himself. Or maybe your ally grapples you, so now the Froghemoth can't! That's what I call shennagigans!

Clever Ravingdork! I don't know how I would use this idea, but you are a bad person for thinking of this!


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Did you just assert that a grappled person cannot grapple, Scott; and then credit me for having come up with the idea, before scolding me for having come up with said idea?

Wow. I don't even know what to say to that.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think he actually said that a grappled person cannot be grappled by another. Then he credited you for coming up with the idea of being grappled by your own spell so you couldn't be grappled by a more powerful opponent.

Going by your OP, I'm not sure how you got worked into this but congratulations.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thanks, Seannoss. That makes more sense.


I'd just rule that a more powerful monster would get to grapple you anyway but would need to overcome both the first grapplers CMD as well as the targets with its CMB roll. Especially if the creature is larger. Would a gargantuan monster care if two flies (medium creatures) are grappling eachother?. The answer is no... No it would not.

Sometimes just cause the rules don't specify clearly on a given hypothetical situation, doesn't mean the rest of the campaign world would care to give a dang... Nor should you allow it as a DM.

My 2 cents.


I'd just like to know part of the rules supports this statement.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:


A person who is Grappled cannot be grappled by someone else: they can only Aid Another the original grappler!

They are certainly vague on what happens if two people make grapple checks against the same foe - but they don't seem to prohibit such as far as I am aware.

As to RD's original question.
RAW: Being grappled doesn't prevent you from making un-penalized grapple checks against anyone in your reach.
RAI: I would say you are correct that that is only intended to be against the person/spell you are already grappling with.


Seannoss wrote:
I think he actually said that a grappled person cannot be grappled by another. Then he credited you for coming up with the idea of being grappled by your own spell so you couldn't be grappled by a more powerful opponent.

That, or thatish. I suppose my wording was awkward.

bbangerter wrote:
I'd just like to know part of the rules supports this statement.

Sure.

Core Rulebook, Combat, Special Attacks, Combat Maneuvers, Grapple, Multiple Creatures wrote:
Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check, with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action).

So, thinking quickly, the wizard wins Initiative, seeing the Froghemoth rising from the bog, casts Black Tentacles on the party. The whole party is Grappled. And the Froghemoth can no longer use its Grab and Swallow Whole abilities like it normally could. It could Aid Another to help the Black Tentacles Grapple more, but that's about it. Of course, it could still Full Attack, and that would be bad enough...

Also, if someone is Grappling you, and you are Grappling someone else, then, these rules also intrude. Normally, if person B is Grappling person C, person C can make a Grapple roll himself to escape or gain control of the Grapple. But in this case, person B is already being Grappled by person A, and that means person C has no possibility of gaining control of the Grapple.


I would think subjecting the entire party to being grappled by Black Tentacles is much worse than potentially letting one party member be grabbed by the monster.

But yeah, I'm in favor of the notion to take over grappling an enemy from another grappler by beating both of their CMDs.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

A person who is Grappled cannot be grappled by someone else: they can only Aid Another the original grappler!

That means that if the party Wizard casts Black Tentacles and gets me, and if I then grapple the bad guy, that bad guy cannot Grapple me in return, at least not to gain control of the Grapple himself. Or maybe your ally grapples you, so now the Froghemoth can't! That's what I call shennagigans!

Clever Ravingdork! I don't know how I would use this idea, but you are a bad person for thinking of this!

This bundle of lunacy is unfortunately relevant. Had an unfortunate encounter in a published adventure where a face sucking monster with the attach ability was wrecking the party. We were trying to find the RAW method for the resident Tetori to remove this creature from his ally's face...

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