Hellknight Access Questions


Pathfinder Society

Dark Archive 3/5 **

Was working on a a Hellknight of the Torrent concept when I ran into some bumps that have left me with a few questions. Apologies if these have been answered elsewhere, I was getting nowhere searching for threads that might have addressed it.

1) Hell's Rebels Pt. 2: Turn of the Torrent is not listed at all in Additional Resources. Is this intentional or an omission? This specific item I'm looking at is the Order of the Torrent Discipline, "Seek the Taken".

Assuming, for now, that it was intentional and nothing in the book is legal...

Additional Resources states that all orders in Path of the Hellknight are legal for play; this would include the Path of the Torrent. However, if Pt. 2 of Hell's Rebels isn't legal, there is no way to take the Order Specific discipline it describes for the Order of the Torrent...which a Hellknight must take as their first discipline.

2) What does an Order of the Torrent Hellknight do? Take the Order of the Scourge specific discipline (as it is the analogous order)? Take any discipline at all? No discipline?

[Edit: Clarified that the Discipline for Order of the Torrent is in Turn of the Torrent only].


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

What do the Additional Resources say about Path of the Hellknight? That would be the most logical primary source for the Order of the Torrent.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

David knott 242 wrote:

What do the Additional Resources say about Path of the Hellknight? That would be the most logical primary source for the Order of the Torrent.

As I explained above, it says the Order is allowed (as it is not one of the two things not legal from said book). But the Discipline specific to Order of the Torrent only appears in Turn of the Torrent; not in Path of the Hellknight.

EDIT: Adjusted Original Post to better reflect this.

4/5

David knott 242 wrote:

What do the Additional Resources say about Path of the Hellknight? That would be the most logical primary source for the Order of the Torrent.

It says nothing helpful, if I'm understanding the OP correctly.

AR wrote:

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Path of the Hellknight

All material in this book is legal for play with the following exceptions. Conquering brands and branding iron are not legal for play. A PC may only benefit from either the Hellknight Obedience or a similar obedience character option (e.g. Deific Obedience) at a time, except as allowed by the Might of the Godclaw revelation. In order to swear allegiance to a Hellknight order for the purpose of qualifying for character options in this book, a PC must be lawful-aligned. The shackle spell uses either the fetters or frontal restraint rules on page 15.

If it doesn't say anything about the Order of the Torrent's order discipline choices in Path of the Hellknight, then the only source other than that would be Hell's Rebels 2, which is not sanctioned. Based on the AR, Order of the Torrent is legal, but you then have to reference an illegal source.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

Serisan wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

What do the Additional Resources say about Path of the Hellknight? That would be the most logical primary source for the Order of the Torrent.

It says nothing helpful, if I'm understanding the OP correctly.

AR wrote:

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Path of the Hellknight

All material in this book is legal for play with the following exceptions. Conquering brands and branding iron are not legal for play. A PC may only benefit from either the Hellknight Obedience or a similar obedience character option (e.g. Deific Obedience) at a time, except as allowed by the Might of the Godclaw revelation. In order to swear allegiance to a Hellknight order for the purpose of qualifying for character options in this book, a PC must be lawful-aligned. The shackle spell uses either the fetters or frontal restraint rules on page 15.
If it doesn't say anything about the Order of the Torrent's order discipline choices in Path of the Hellknight, then the only source other than that would be Hell's Rebels 2, which is not sanctioned. Based on the AR, Order of the Torrent is legal, but you then have to reference an illegal source.

All Minor Orders, per Path of the Hellknight, use an analogous major order for any rules/crunch that's missing (Disciplines, Hellknight Obedience, Etc.). It's just confusing as Torrent's is in another book (like Order of the Glyph's), but that book isn't spoken of in AR at all (unlike the Hell's Vengeance installment the Glyph discipline is in).

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane

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Wow, this is a good one!! So I did some digging and this is what I found. Keep in mind, I am in no authority to deliver a ruling on a campaign level. If this were to come up at my tables, here's how I would handle the issue as per Table Variation.

Since the Order or the Torrent is allowed in Path of the Hellknight but its reference does not have any disciplines, I would allow the taking of a discipline from the Order of the Scourge being an analogous order or ones that are not tied to a particular order. Once the information from Pathfinder Adventure Path #98: Turn of the Torrent is ruled upon and its discipline allowed by Additional Resources, I would allow the change of the discipline to the one for the Order of the Torrent from the one chosen from the Order of the Scourge.

Now. not all the minor Hellknight Orders have disciplines associated with them or referenced to them in other material. I would like to make the following proposal:

The addition of Pathfinder Adventure Path #98: Turn of the Torrent to the Additional Resources in order to allow access to the discipline outlined for the Order of the Torrent on page 66. As precedent, The Order of the Glyph does have a reference to Pathfinder Adventure Path #107: Scourge of the Godclaw and is called out in Additional Resources as the discipline being legal for Pathfinder Society. Which will hopefully warrant the addition of the discipline on page 66 in Pathfinder Adventure Path #98: Turn of the Torrent regarding the Order of the Torrent. If there is an issue with the enlarged Locate Creature spell, I would propose its restriction to be used only when the subject being located has been abducted. If this is not the case, the spell does not work.

Hope this has been helpful. Please PM me if you have any further questions or need clarification as to my proposed ideas.

Edited to remove the second proposal as the rules in the Minor Hellknight Orders covered the very proposal I had previously made.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane

bdk86 wrote:
Serisan wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

What do the Additional Resources say about Path of the Hellknight? That would be the most logical primary source for the Order of the Torrent.

It says nothing helpful, if I'm understanding the OP correctly.

AR wrote:

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Path of the Hellknight

All material in this book is legal for play with the following exceptions. Conquering brands and branding iron are not legal for play. A PC may only benefit from either the Hellknight Obedience or a similar obedience character option (e.g. Deific Obedience) at a time, except as allowed by the Might of the Godclaw revelation. In order to swear allegiance to a Hellknight order for the purpose of qualifying for character options in this book, a PC must be lawful-aligned. The shackle spell uses either the fetters or frontal restraint rules on page 15.
If it doesn't say anything about the Order of the Torrent's order discipline choices in Path of the Hellknight, then the only source other than that would be Hell's Rebels 2, which is not sanctioned. Based on the AR, Order of the Torrent is legal, but you then have to reference an illegal source.

All Minor Orders, per Path of the Hellknight, use an analogous major order for any rules/crunch that's missing (Disciplines, Hellknight Obedience, Etc.). It's just confusing as Torrent's is in another book (like Order of the Glyph's), but that book isn't spoken of in AR at all (unlike the Hell's Vengeance installment the Glyph discipline is in).

Since Order of the Torrent is legal in Path of the Hellknight but its discipline is not currently, the rule you quoted gives you the direction to go in which would be to use a discipline associated with the Order of the Scourge or disciplines not associated with a particular order. The other option would be to wait until the discipline in Pathfinder Adventure Path #98: Turn of the Torrent is allowed.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Pathfinder Society Lead Developer

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It looks like we overlooked that entry in Pathfinder #98: Turn of the Torrent. I imagine we can examine that the next time we update the Additional Resources page.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane

Thanks John for the swift response.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

John Compton wrote:
It looks like we overlooked that entry in Pathfinder #98: Turn of the Torrent. I imagine we can examine that the next time we update the Additional Resources page.

Thank you!

And overlooking it is totally understandable. At the time, most folks probably just assumed that meant the Torrent wasn't going to be a playable order and no one caught it. I don't recall anything in that AP# that was otherwise PC oriented.

4/5

Given that as of the events of Hell's Rebels, there are only 2 dozen members of the order, I could certainly see why that assumption would be the case. I'm glad to see John's response here as there are some compelling characters that could come out of the exclusive No-Evil hellknight order.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

There's a no-evil hellknight order?

Oh... I suddenly have interest in hellknights now!


Order of the Torrent, specializing in the safe return of the abducted.

Motto: "Breathe deeply before the plunge"

Armor: aquatic themes with fin shaped flourishes

Favoured weapon: Halberd or Long Bow.

Yeah, they're pretty cool. :-)

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

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An aquatic themed, non-evil order of Hellknghts?

SQUEEEEE!

I am feeling the overwhelming urge to create another undine character.

Hmm


Check out the cover of Turn of the Torrent. :-)

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

Is there a full description of the order in that book? I own it, I've just never read it.

Hmm


Yes, it's not much, it's on page 67. :-)

Dark Archive 3/5 **

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

There's a no-evil hellknight order?

Oh... I suddenly have interest in hellknights now!

They're actually really awesome. The order deals primarily in missing/abducted persons cases, especially those that are very delicate and may require some negotiation. They actually have a tenet that punishment of the offender comes second to the safe retrieval of the taken person(s) and that harming bystanders to do this is never acceptable. Their Lictor is Lawful Good.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

There's a no-evil hellknight order?

Oh... I suddenly have interest in hellknights now!

Order of the Pyre and Order of the Godclaw are decidedly not evil - they have LG members - even Paladins! :D

(my favorite two orders, personally)


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Last time I checked, Order of the Godclaw includes Asmodeus worshippers (not clear whether everyone in there has to pay homage to him), so it would seem that they have to be part-Evil unless they only allow Lawful Neutral borderline heretics of Asmodeus.

4/5

Order of the Torrent explicitly has never knowingly had an Evil member. That's what sets them apart.

3/5 **** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Last time I checked, Order of the Godclaw includes Asmodeus worshippers (not clear whether everyone in there has to pay homage to him), so it would seem that they have to be part-Evil unless they only allow Lawful Neutral borderline heretics of Asmodeus.

In the Hellknight book the entire order is presented as heretical. A lot of regular worshippers actually side eye them as they don't strictly follow the gods tenants. Doesn't mean they don't have evil members but that is related to Zon Kuthon. There is the monster hunting faction that is also non evil. At least I'm not sure how it would turn evil as it protects people from monsters.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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MadScientistWorking wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

Last time I checked, Order of the Godclaw includes Asmodeus worshippers (not clear whether everyone in there has to pay homage to him), so it would seem that they have to be part-Evil unless they only allow Lawful Neutral borderline heretics of Asmodeus.

In the Hellknight book the entire order is presented as heretical. A lot of regular worshippers actually side eye them as they don't strictly follow the gods tenants. Doesn't mean they don't have evil members but that is related to Zon Kuthon. There is the monster hunting faction that is also non evil. At least I'm not sure how it would turn evil as it protects people from monsters.

We don't even want to be followed, it makes us nervous.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Most Hellknight orders have members of all three Lawful alignments, with Lawful Neutral being by far the most common.

The Order of the Godclaw would also be predominantly Lawful Neutral, as that is the only alignment that can hope to reconcile the teachings of all five of their pantheon's deities. Good members have to downplay Asmodeus, while evil members are in the even worse position of having to downplay two of the five (Iomedae and Torag).

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

There's a no-evil hellknight order?

Oh... I suddenly have interest in hellknights now!

You should always have interest in the Hellknights. Or they will have interest in you.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Robin Aeronica wrote:
You should always have interest in the Hellknights. Or they will have interest in you.

While your order may violate the privacy of everyone, we just watch those that deserve watching.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

Urska Ghival wrote:
Robin Aeronica wrote:
You should always have interest in the Hellknights. Or they will have interest in you.
While your order may violate the privacy of everyone, we just watch those that deserve watching.

Check your tongue... Armiger.

4/5

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Robin Aeronica wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

There's a no-evil hellknight order?

Oh... I suddenly have interest in hellknights now!

You should always have interest in the Hellknights. Or they will have interest in you.

"I know when you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake...."

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

Signifer Santa wrote:
Robin Aeronica wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:

There's a no-evil hellknight order?

Oh... I suddenly have interest in hellknights now!

You should always have interest in the Hellknights. Or they will have interest in you.
"I know when you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake...."

Shouldn't that be "I know when you've been chaotic so I will give you one chance to redeem yourself before that stocking is removed with your leg in it"?

Sovereign Court 1/5

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...

Don't assassinate people.

(Nailed it.)

Dark Archive 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

Robin Aeronica wrote:
Urska Ghival wrote:
Robin Aeronica wrote:
You should always have interest in the Hellknights. Or they will have interest in you.
While your order may violate the privacy of everyone, we just watch those that deserve watching.
Check your tongue... Armiger.

Quite right.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

Ursion Nymmis, Scar Hellknight wrote:

...

Don't assassinate people.

(Nailed it.)

"Aye, t'is very true, an' that was f'in funny t'boot!"

Dark Archive 4/5

Such frivolity in public is unbecoming, brothers and sisters.

Shadow Lodge *

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
HK Lapè Blakros, OotS wrote:
Such frivolity in public is unbecoming, brothers and sisters.

Is Order of the Stick one of the Hellknight Orders?

I might have to make a Hellknight.

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

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pH unbalanced wrote:
HK Lapè Blakros, OotS wrote:
Such frivolity in public is unbecoming, brothers and sisters.

Is Order of the Stick one of the Hellknight Orders?

I might have to make a Hellknight.

The closest thing to a Hellknight they had was Miko, and that... didn't work out so well.

That said, one of the dead Hellknight orders actually has some interesting synergy with the Order of the Stick plotline...

Path of the Hellknight wrote:
Vise: This order, charged with eliminating manifestations of extraplanar chaos, was annihilated in brutal planar retaliation.

5/5 5/55/55/5

pH unbalanced wrote:
HK Lapè Blakros, OotS wrote:
Such frivolity in public is unbecoming, brothers and sisters.

Is Order of the Stick one of the Hellknight Orders?

I might have to make a Hellknight.

Sticks are an inherent class feature for all hellknights.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 ****

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kalindlara wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:
HK Lapè Blakros, OotS wrote:
Such frivolity in public is unbecoming, brothers and sisters.

Is Order of the Stick one of the Hellknight Orders?

I might have to make a Hellknight.

The closest thing to a Hellknight they had was Miko, and that... didn't work out so well.

That said, one of the dead Hellknight orders actually has some interesting synergy with the Order of the Stick plotline...

Path of the Hellknight wrote:
Vise: This order, charged with eliminating manifestations of extraplanar chaos, was annihilated in brutal planar retaliation.

From the recent Paizo Reddit AMA

Wes Schneider wrote:

Okay. Order of the Vise. How about TWO sentences:

One of the more worthy orders formed by King Gaspodar during the Chelish Civil War, the Vise was mandated with opposing manifestations of extraplanar chaos. The order was short lived, though, their fortress—Citadel Darvhage on the north shore of Lake Sorrow—being reduced to rubble by some manner of brutal planar retaliation.

(After he was begged for more than just one sentence about them)

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Armiger of the Torrent reporting in.

That's a secret though! I figure they're still on the lookout for whosoever Torrentine happened to slit that Rackite Signifer's throat a few weeks back.

Gods, sometimes I fear for my soul.

Sovereign Court 4/5

Fully aware this is possibly the worst possible time to ask this question, but giving it a shot anyway...

Is there any hope for a Campaign Clarification to make Occult Hellknight Signifers more viable? Path of the Hellknight and a recent PFS scenario have made me interested in having my Psychic join the Order of the Gate. There's just one problem...

Currently, the prestige class requires one of two feats: Arcane Armor Training or Warrior Priest. Arcane Armor Training provides 0 mechanical benefit, while Warrior Priest requires a dip.

While I can work with those restrictions, it'd be nice to have an option that's more suitable, especially as Path of the Hellknight does present a canon Psychic/Hellknight Signifer. As it's from a Campaign Setting book, a clarification is likely the only way to make a change possible.

To throw a couple suggestions out there, Logical Spell or (non-PFS legal) Third Eye from Occult Adventures both seem relatively on theme. At first glance, there's not a "warrior caster" sort of feat that's a good fit for the occult classes as a whole.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

I would love to have another useful feat for hellknight entry. I'm looking to build a shaman who goes into this, and I'll be wasting a feat to do this...

Hmm

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