ChaosTicket |
An ongoing problem in my PFS group has been based around the racial exotic weapons. In multiple sources from the core rulebook, http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd, and d20pfsrd racial weapons for Halings, elves, and Dwarves go from exotic to martial proficiency when used by their respective races. This doesnt state they automatically get proficiency, so they still require a class with martial weapon proficiency to properly benefit from this.
But some people insists that you get full proficiency for the weapon. This hasnt been a huge issue as I dont know anyone who really uses racial weapons because of the legal gray area, which is why I am asking. Its caused more than one argument at the tables.
The only source Ive heard related to this is a Halflings theme books. I think it is Halflings of Golarion.
Calth |
Well thats what I am going to do, state "bring the book" or dont use it.
I remember one player tried to use special rules from the Ranger Skirmisher archetype on a Hunter and got away with that ONCE. He was the only person who knew about it.
Uh, he may have been right. Hunter pets can use Skirmisher tricks. And prior to the rewrite it was pretty confusingly worded.
ChaosTicket |
Didnt mean to start up a sub-thread, but can you explain the source? We couldnt find it so it was effectively hearsay.
I think the way the player used the Skirmisher tricks was like the Primalist Bloodrager, as is no tradeoffs. I dont remember him using any spells(it was level 1ish) so I dont know if he traded off all his spellcasting like the actual Skirmisher Archetype is supposed to do. It just came across as pets better than everyone else's .
Drahliana Moonrunner |
Racial familiarity means that character classes who get all martial weapons as a class feature are proficient with them. So all elven fighters, rangers, etc. are proficient with that finessable elven two handed blade, but pure wizards are not, because they lack the applicable class feature. They can get access by taking the martial proficency feat for that specific weapon because they are elves.
Expletive |
Didnt mean to start up a sub-thread, but can you explain the source? We couldnt find it so it was effectively hearsay.
I think the way the player used the Skirmisher tricks was like the Primalist Bloodrager, as is no tradeoffs. I dont remember him using any spells(it was level 1ish) so I dont know if he traded off all his spellcasting like the actual Skirmisher Archetype is supposed to do. It just came across as pets better than everyone else's .
The PRD says the following:
A hunter may teach her companion hunter's tricks from the skirmisher ranger archetype instead of standard tricks. The animal companion can use skirmisher tricks when commanded, a number of times per day equal to 1/2 its hit dice + its Wisdom modifier.
And as far as "pets better than everyone else's": Yeah, that's kind of the whole point of the class. Almost all of the class's features are pointed towards making their animal companion better than a Druid's or Ranger's. Whether it's the SEVEN free teamwork feats both the hunter and the animal get or the animal focus that gives both of them free stats, the companion being better is the whole idea.
Drahliana Moonrunner |
You do realize that means the Hunter is the best level 1 class then, right?
Not really. It's just a very viable option. Pet class does not mean auto-win. Animal pets continue to have pretty crappy will saves among other things, and they also remain emminently hittable. The Hunter is also balanced out by having a 3/4 BAB as opposed to the Ranger's full BAB. And a Ranger can take Boon Companion to boost his effective druid level to par.
ChaosTicket |
How isnt it? You get a 2nd character to fight with as an animal companion using unlimited duration Animal focus as a free buff, martial weapons, spells, and skirmishers tricks all at level 1.
Get to level 3 and you get a +4 flanking bonus just by being near your pet.
Pick a small race character and a medium animal and just ride it around.
I didnt mean to make this into a rant, but the Hunter is quite unbalanced. It makes most warriors classes Obsolete at level 1. That was shown in several games where a player took a giraffe and did more damage than the rest of the party and pulling out skirmishers tricks just broke that more.
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But back to the original post. Does Halflings of Golarion override the core rules about racial weapons?
Saldiven |
You do realize that means the Hunter is the best level 1 class then, right?
So what if it is?
Assuming that's correct, what percentage of a character's career is spent at 1st level?
Even if we assume the Hunter is the "best level 1 class," it is inarguable that this disparity disappears rather quickly. The Ranger has a decent AC that becomes standard with one Feat, full BAB, Combat Styles, and gets spell casting. The Druid has the same BAB as the Hunter, a full AC, and 9th level spells.
Drahliana Moonrunner |
How isnt it? You get a 2nd character to fight with as an animal companion using unlimited duration Animal focus as a free buff, martial weapons, spells, and skirmishers tricks all at level 1.
Get to level 3 and you get a +4 flanking bonus just by being near your pet.
Pick a small race character and a medium animal and just ride it around.
I didnt mean to make this into a rant, but the Hunter is quite unbalanced. It makes most warriors classes Obsolete at level 1. That was shown in several games where a player took a giraffe and did more damage than the rest of the party and pulling out skirmishers tricks just broke that more.
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But back to the original post. Does Halflings of Golarion override the core rules about racial weapons?
No. if you're seeing something in the Hafling book it's either a misreading of the text, or the text itself is misleading. General rule for racial familiarity weapons is that members of that race proficient with all martial weapons are proficient with racial exotic weapons.
Elves are the only race where all members are proficient with a short list of specific martial weapons. However racial familiarity rules still apply to the elven curve blade.
ChaosTicket |
Ok, some people have missed an important part. This is about exotic racial weapons, halfling, orc, elven, dwarven, orc, gnome, etc.
For example the Halfling Sling-Staff is an exotic weapon. A halfling Rogue wants to use that. According to all sources Ive seen being a Halfling the staff becomes a martial weapon, but rogues dont have martial weapon proficiency.
The argument is that another player insists that being that race gives your proficiency with all that particular race's exotic weapons. The only source cited is that halfling book and I do not have it.
Rysky |
Hallflings’ short stature, keen senses, and uniquely low center of gravity give them many advantages, particularly when using slings. In fact, some of their sling techniques prove almost impossible for taller races to duplicate. All of the items below count as halfling weapons for the weapon familiarity halfling racial trait.
Halflings are proficient with slings and treat any weapon with the word “halfling” in its name as a martial weapon.
Made from a specially designed sling attached to a short club, a halfling sling staff can be used by a proficient wielder to devastating effect.Description: Your Strength modifier applies to damage rolls when you use a halfling sling staff just as it does for thrown weapons. You can fire, but not load, a halfling sling staff with one hand. You can hurl ordinary stones with a halfling sling staff, but stones are not as dense or as round as bullets. Thus, such an attack deals damage as if the weapon were designed for a creature one size category smaller than you and you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls. A halfling sling staff can be used as a simple weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a club of its size.
Action: Loading a halfling sling staff is a move action that requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity.
Racial Specialty: Halflings treat halfling sling staves as martial weapons.
That's all there is to say to that. They're martial weapons for Halflings, Halfings need to be either proficient with martial weapons, or spend a feat on them.
ryric RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 |
ChaosTicket |
The Hunter was an example. Nobody then had the Skirmisher Archetype rules so bringing up any skirmisher tricks in that match confused people. The GM just said to stop doing in one particular game that so the game didnt grind to a halt so the GM could scour through rules to confirm.
That was just meant to support the "bring a source" if youre going to challenge central rules. If Halflings of Golarion gives Halflings weapon proficiency with exotic weapons, then that player should bring it so it can be confirmed.
Without a source to back that up, its just a stubborn argument and that isnt welcome while playing.
Kazaan |
Generally speaking, racial weapon familiarity will treat exotic racial weapons as if they were martial and have a selection of already martial weapons for which they automatically gain proficiency. For instance, Elven weapon familiarity says to treat Longbows, Longswords, Rapiers, and Shortbows as automatically proficient and (separately) treat any Elven weapons (eg. Elven Curved Blade, Elven Branch Spear, etc.) as if they were martial. All "racial" weapons (weapons with the name of a race in them) are exotic by default. So an Elven Wizard would be automatically proficient with Longswords, Longbows, Rapiers, and Shortbows, in addition to the normal Wizard weapon proficiencies and, additionally, would count ECBs and EBSs as if they were martial. This means that they only need take MWP to gain proficiency with these weapons, that a level in a "martial" class (one that grants proficiency with all martial weapons) will grant proficiency, and rules elements that apply to martial weapons (eg. heirloom weapon, crafting DC, etc) will apply to these weapons. So an Elf, for example, can craft an ECB with a craft DC of 15 for martial rather than 18 for an exotic weapon.
born_of_fire |
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For PFS, a player is required to have on hand all the material they are using for their character that session, in either book or watermarked PDF form, or else that character is ineligible for play. This thread is kind of all over the place so it's hard to tell if the issue was that the player didn't have the material or there was a disagreement over the interpretation of the material but you should not have to tell PFS players to "bring the book or don't play it" as this is a long established ground rule for organized play.
ChaosTicket |
Well, the two problems are:
#1 claiming and obscure rule overrides the core rulebook, and not bringing supporting material. This resulted in arguments.
#2 using abilities from an complicated archetype and not bringing the materials.
The first problem is just arguing about something you cannot support. The second it just about not overcomplicating things.
Its rare these problems happen as the Core Rulebook grants a bonus in PFS in addition to usual rules. There are multiples players so noone being able to check the core rulebook is highly unlikely. After that several people have laptops, tablets, and/or smart phones so you have to try hard to use rules people cant just look up to confirm.