Lightning Blaster - Caster or Kineticist?


Advice

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I"m leaning toward the Kineticist, simply because of the at-will Kinetic Blast.

I'm so sorry, but you cannot, and I mean CANNOT even think about "viability" with daily uses for spells.

You cannot use Shocking Grasp, Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning at will, let alone 3 times per day or more. Sure, they might be more powerful than the Kinetic Blast, but they're not at readily available. Yes, you MIGHT not get into that many encounters per day, but you NEVER know what to expect in any game session.

A Kineticist can snap a finger and throw a lightning orb at any time and doesn't need to worry about wasting a spell slot.


Philo Pharynx wrote:
The length of the fighting day is something to expect huge table variation at. I've been in groups where 6-8 encounters per day was more typical, with a few days going much higher. Those are the days where you are glad for a kineticist or a spherecaster. If you're going to be a regular caster there, you need to focus on spells that last all fight long.
JiCi wrote:

I"m leaning toward the Kineticist, simply because of the at-will Kinetic Blast.

I'm so sorry, but you cannot, and I mean CANNOT even think about "viability" with daily uses for spells.

You cannot use Shocking Grasp, Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning at will, let alone 3 times per day or more. Sure, they might be more powerful than the Kinetic Blast, but they're not at readily available. Yes, you MIGHT not get into that many encounters per day, but you NEVER know what to expect in any game session.

A Kineticist can snap a finger and throw a lightning orb at any time and doesn't need to worry about wasting a spell slot.

Might, could, maybe should.

EVERYONE struggles on long adventuring days. Fighters, Wizards, even Kineticists. There's ALWAYS a resource that can run down.

But statistically speaking, most games run 4-5 encounters a day, or if they run more several of them are very easy. If they're easy...just don't cast a spell. Or plink away with a cantrip or school ability.

Trading off being better at everything 90% of the time for being better at ONE thing 10% of the time is an awful trade.

Do you refuse to buy a car because you MIGHT run out of gas some time? Or sleep outside because your house COULD collapse on you in the middle of the night?

No?

Then why apply that mindset to this game? You plan for what will USUALLY happen, and accept that sometimes the unexpected occurs. You don't base your entire character around something unlikely that could come up.

"Boy I sure am glad I pumped all my Favored Enemy choices into Construct in this game. I mean, we've only ever fought this one but it was a real help!"

Grand Lodge

I believe that if you do the math level by level of each class that you are considering (Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid and Kineticist) you will have the big picture and can take the one you like most.

If you get Kineticist sure you can throw blasts all day, but sometimes you need more tools to overcome some situations

Just my two cents but with Wizard/Sorcerer or Druid you will gain a lot of versatility and utility, you will always have more things to do besides making damage. Like cast some control spells, wands, knowledge checks, buffs, scrolls, summons, etc. etc.


Sundakan wrote:
Do you refuse to buy a car because you MIGHT run out of gas some time? Or sleep outside because your house COULD collapse on you in the middle of the night?

No, but you can hold back on certain spells "in case" you need it to a later encounter.

Your car and gas example is different, as you can go for several days without tanking and you can find a gas station pretty easily. It's not like I can use my car once per day, regardless of how much gas there is in the tank.

Does your car door key only function once per day? Of course not...

Once a spell is cast, it's gone, until you rest. You cannot simply reprepare that same spell, not does the spell remain "active" for 1 hour/level. It's a one-time use.


Unless you use one of the many methods to get that slot back, of course.

The Exchange

I read Havocker wrongly. I thought it gave up the 1st and 2nd level hexes, major hexes and grand hexes for some kineticost abilities, then realized it gave up all hexes. Pass.

Scarab Sages

Havoker is still a high tier 2/low tier 1 class. It's just weaker than a normal witch. You mostly ignore spellburn, take an energy blast, and are a 9th level caster with a super-cantrip to use if you aren't casting.

The Exchange

I could see myself giving up some hexes, all my major and grand hexes, but not all of them :( Hexes are part of being witch. If I had no hexes, I couldn't call myself a witch any longer :(


JiCi wrote:

I"m leaning toward the Kineticist, simply because of the at-will Kinetic Blast.

I'm so sorry, but you cannot, and I mean CANNOT even think about "viability" with daily uses for spells.

You cannot use Shocking Grasp, Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning at will, let alone 3 times per day or more. Sure, they might be more powerful than the Kinetic Blast, but they're not at readily available. Yes, you MIGHT not get into that many encounters per day, but you NEVER know what to expect in any game session.

A Kineticist can snap a finger and throw a lightning orb at any time and doesn't need to worry about wasting a spell slot.

At-Will isn't all it's cracked up to be. Is it convenient? Sure. It's less bookkeeping, and doesn't require much thought or deliberation, and the answer then always becomes "Yes". But quite frankly, if you're only going to be using something for up to 3 times per day, then it's much more prudent and cost-effective to get something that works 3/day than it is to make it Use-Activated. In short, this means that in those situations, a Nova character is actually better than a constant character.

Also, if you're going to propose that you physically can't use a spell more than 3 times per day, that's merely an early-game contemplation. Casters suck in the early game, and that's a trade-off and to be expected. Which, ironically enough, early game blasters can cast a given 1st level spell up to 3 times per day, starting at level 1. It's not wholly recommended, but the possibility is there.

A lot of a Blaster's deficiencies also plague the Kineticist if he specializes in an element for more damage; Immunities, Elemental Resistance, Spell Resistance, High Touch AC...these are all things that will apply to a Kineticist that also apply to a Blaster, and the Blaster will have more tools at his disposal to bypass or entirely negate these issues; the Kineticist? Not so much. He might have more BAB, but the Blaster more than makes up for it with his own personal buffs, i.e. Heroism, Reduce Person, Monstrous Physique/Undead Anatomy, etc. (In fact, Greater Heroism might increase the damage of certain spells he casts, per the FAQ regarding weapon damage rolls affecting weapon-like spells such as rays.)

I mean, at first level, with a 20 Intelligence, a Human Blood Arcanist with Spell Focus (Evocation) and Spell Specialization (Burning Hands) with Strengthen Magic (base Arcane Reservoir ability) can throw out 4D4+4 damage in a 15 foot cone 3 times per day, with a DC 17 Reflex Saving Throw (which results in an average of 14 damage per creature affected).

With max Dexterity and good Reflex Saves progression, there's still a 50% chance of failing that saving throw. Most creatures and enemies won't have a +7 or so to their Reflex Saves starting at level 1, so the odds of anything living from that spell are very slim.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
RaizielDragon wrote:

Thanks for all of the input everyone. It looks like blaster casters are becoming more and more possible as more options are released; I remember just a few years ago, if I asked about a blaster, I would have been told to be a "God Wizard" or to not bother with being a spellcaster at all.

I'm still leaning toward a Kineticist, but I'm starting to be swayed for a couple of reasons:

1) A spellcaster would have more options for blasting, from a lowly Jolt as a backup, all the way up to the highest level spell, using metamagic to push limits of damage. Kineticist tries to replicate this with infusions, but not all infusions are always available for the blasts I'm interested in.

2) Damage for a spell is better (1d6/level) than a Kineticist (1d6+1d6/2 levels past 1) until Kineticist gets a composite blast (2d6+2d6/2 levels past 1, or 1d6+1d6/level essentially). And then, the Kineticist has to worry about Burn (or gathering power for a round, which is detrimental to damage output).

If you're playing Core only, blasters suck because they don't have the tools needed to deal with their flaws to make them good. The later books have content that deal with their flaws, and when you use those to your advantage, blaster casters become extremely powerful, and still be (almost) as versatile as any God Wizard.

There's also the matter of Quickened spells. As far as I know, Kinetic Blasts can only be done 1/round, whereas spells can be cast as much as 2/round (or 3/round if you use some item gimmicks, like Spellstoring Weapons, but that's for Magi and the like).

Not to mention Kineticists have only limited utility, depending on which element they focus on, whereas other Full Spellcasters have all of the utility you could possibly need, and some utility that cannot be replicated anywhere. Of course, Divine spell lists suck for blasting, and even then certain Arcane spell lists (i.e. Witch) still suck eggs.

If I may ask, what are some of the new additions to blasters in the later books, that make them viable? Planning on making a blaster for my next game.


Spell Specialization, Spell Perfection, and Admixture Subschool, and traits like Wayang Spellhunter to name a few.


I strongly suggest you give up the Lightning Element. Neither Casters or the Kineticist benefits from that kind of overspecialization.

An Air Kineticist can have Electrical Blast to start out with. Its a Touch AC attack. You can learn PERMANENT Fly and Air's Reach doubles the range of your Air-element attacks. Celerity lets you use Haste in exchange for Burn.

Why is that not awesome? You dont get much else. a caster learns all sorts of spells, but only a few Kineticists powers per element are actually good. You can only learn 3 elements maximum.

In particular the rarity of area attacks is a major problem. You basically have to go into Fire as an Element for Explosion or Eruption infusions, and those ONLY work on Fire blasts. Alot of trouble to get the equivalent of Fireball.

the kineticists sustainability is tied to how many burn-reducing effects you have stacked up.

Level 1 you use Gather Power allow Extended Range.
Level 5 you use Gather Power to Empower your Simple Blasts, and Infusion Specialization allow Extended Range, all together.

Casters have far more versatility. You have a whole assortment of spells. Clerics and Druids know their entire spell list, and some Arcane Classes let them learn an unlimited number of spells. Nothing to stop a Wizard/Sorcerer from having tier 3 Hastes and tier 4 Intensified Fireballs, not to mention tiers 1, 2, 5, 7, 8, and 9.


ChaosTicket wrote:


Level 1 you use Gather Power allow Extended Range.
Level 5 you use Gather Power to Empower your Simple Blasts, and Infusion Specialization allow Extended Range, all together.

Casters have far more versatility. You have a whole assortment of spells. Clerics and Druids know their entire spell list, and some Arcane Classes let them learn an unlimited number of spells. Nothing to stop a Wizard/Sorcerer from having tier 3 Hastes and tier 4 Intensified Fireballs, not to mention tiers 1, 2, 5, 7, 8, and 9.

Level 1 wizard shoots 1d3 cantrips

Level 5 wizard has to choose between 1 haste or 1 fireball (2 if in school)
Still less damage than an all day kineticist (who may have other useful stuff like tripping, bull rush, or entangling) Also blast at this level is 3d6[+3]+more before the 1.5 modifier.

I get this big feeling that a lot of forum goers sometimes get this disillusioned feeling that optimal is the gold standard for encounters and situations. I am by no means a veteran player but I have definetly played enough to see casters either not have the right spells prepared or have the wrong spells prepared. It isn't unheard of to have presumed the wrong situations for the day.


Texas Snyper wrote:
I get this big feeling that a lot of forum goers sometimes get this disillusioned feeling that optimal is the gold standard for encounters and situations.

Optimal literally means BEST, so that statement just makes me laugh.

Different kinds of casters use spells differently. Wizards have to prepare spells per day, while a Sorcerer can use any spell so long as they know it and have a spell slot.

A Sorcerer is the closest thing to the Kineticist. A Sorcerer has to worry about running out of spells, but a Kineticist has to worry about minimizing Burn. Which is better? Its situational.

The greatest difference isnt in terms of damage, but everything else. Kineticist cant summon, use invisibility, open a gate to another plane of existence, etc. The kineticist is stuck as a Blaster. You have handful of useful utility spells scattered about. Kinetic Healer can be quite useful for Water kineticists.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Texas Snyper wrote:
Level 1 wizard shoots 1d3 cantrips

No, as noted above, level 1 wizard shoots 14-damage Burning Hands with a very high save DC.

Quote:
Level 5 wizard has to choose between 1 haste or 1 fireball (2 if in school)

Plus a bonus slot for high int, plus an extra spell from arcane bond. So four fireballs per day, which have twice the damage (5d6+3, can easily be more) and four times the area of effect of anything the kinny can put out.

And they also have other useful stuff, of course.

Quote:
I get this big feeling that a lot of forum goers sometimes get this disillusioned feeling that optimal is the gold standard for encounters and situations.

Of course not. When people ask "what is the BEST blaster class" they are going to get advice on what is the best blaster class, plus analysis as to WHY this class is best. That's precisely what we've got in this thread.


Sundakan wrote:
Unless you use one of the many methods to get that slot back, of course.

Without spending a GP? Good luck with that...

Scarab Sages

ChaosTicket wrote:


The greatest difference isnt in terms of damage, but everything else. Kineticist cant summon, use invisibility, open a gate to another plane of existence, etc. The kineticist is stuck as a Blaster.

They can summon with spark of life or animate object. They can use invisibility all day (if aether). They and get 9th level spell effects. Kineticist is always going to be a primary blaster. But unless you are playing an EA, it's utility is very good. You can't do eferything like a caster, but you can do a lot and what you can do is all day..


Texas Snyper wrote:
ChaosTicket wrote:


Level 1 you use Gather Power allow Extended Range.
Level 5 you use Gather Power to Empower your Simple Blasts, and Infusion Specialization allow Extended Range, all together.

Casters have far more versatility. You have a whole assortment of spells. Clerics and Druids know their entire spell list, and some Arcane Classes let them learn an unlimited number of spells. Nothing to stop a Wizard/Sorcerer from having tier 3 Hastes and tier 4 Intensified Fireballs, not to mention tiers 1, 2, 5, 7, 8, and 9.

Level 1 wizard shoots 1d3 cantrips

Level 5 wizard has to choose between 1 haste or 1 fireball (2 if in school)
Still less damage than an all day kineticist (who may have other useful stuff like tripping, bull rush, or entangling) Also blast at this level is 3d6[+3]+more before the 1.5 modifier.

I get this big feeling that a lot of forum goers sometimes get this disillusioned feeling that optimal is the gold standard for encounters and situations. I am by no means a veteran player but I have definetly played enough to see casters either not have the right spells prepared or have the wrong spells prepared. It isn't unheard of to have presumed the wrong situations for the day.

You appear to be forgetting about bonus spells for high int, oh and the wizard's fireball is more damage, and probably hits everything in the encounter, and if he's properly built has at least a +2 to caster level dealing 7d6 damage, so over twice as much as the kineticist. Now if we make this guy a sorcerer then we can play with blood havoc and one of the blasting arcana to make that 8d6+16 at level 6, or 9d6+18 with both spell specialisation and varisian tattoo, and this is 3 times a day before the extra spell or two from high cha.

So if our blasty sorcerer has even as little as 16 cha he's got 4 fireballs, and each of them doing about 50 damage on a failed save, he probably doesn't need more.


JiCi wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Unless you use one of the many methods to get that slot back, of course.
Without spending a GP? Good luck with that...

I'd love to know where you get the gas for your car, since it's free...

Spending a renewable resource to regain a nonrenewable resource is a good trade.


Azten wrote:
Spell Specialization, Spell Perfection, and Admixture Subschool, and traits like Wayang Spellhunter to name a few.

In addition to these (which raises spell level) there are the aforementioned damage boosters too (which with +3 damage per die effectively increases most damage die by two steps).

But really part of the reason spells are recommended above kinetists is the background support of spells.

A spellcaster can raise bonus damage, spell dc and caster level before metamagics are even considered.

Now granted a spellcaster can only do so much of each. For elemental spells (such as electricity in this case) you can take spell focus, greater spell focus, elemental focus, and greater elemental focus for +4 to DC and then spell perfection to double that. Take spell specialization and spell tattoo (varisian tattoo in the books) and you get a +2 bonus to caster level (again +4 with spell perfection.

Now of course taking all these feats are going to require 3 metamagic feats, the 4 spell dc booster feats, 2 caster level feats and spell perfection for 10 feats total.

But it pays off a lot.

A Kinetists simply doesn't have this level of support in feats yet.


@ Lostcause78: For Wizards, there is the Admixture subschool for Evocation. Because Force Missiles are crappy and don't scale worth a damn (but Intense Spells is still nice), the ability from Admixture is really nice, as it allows some spells that have reduced (or completely negated) damage in some scenarios to instead deal full damage (or even have increased damage via vulnerabilities) in said scenarios, without having to sit there and determine how many of spells of X element you want. The factor that its uses/day scales based off of Intelligence is really nice.

In essence, it allows you to specialize on a single spell without having to worry if it will work in a given encounter or not. With a successful Knowledge check, you'll know what elements do and do not work on a given creature, and if you're familiar enough with the Beastiary, you'll know that certain creatures are vulnerable to certain elements. Quite frankly, if you're facing enemies that are resistant (or immune to) all elements that you can use, then you weren't going to be useful, regardless of if you had the school or not.

Then there is the Orc Bloodline for Sorcerers. A flat +1 damage per dice dealt on a given spell is really nice; the Draconic and Elemental bloodlines do the same thing, except their powers and stuff suck. Plus, Orc Bloodline allows you to go melee if you so desire, with their melee-oriented Bloodline powers, some of which can be used to buff allies on turns that you want to conserve spellpower.

There is also the Elemental Spell metamagic. This is nice, but also highly impractical. When you choose the Metamagic, you have to specify an element (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire). When you cast spells, applying the Metamagic allows you to transform it into that element. Unfortunately, this requires you to pick the feat 4 times (to cover the 4 primary elements) and increases the spell level by 1. These are best served as a Metamagic Rod if you're a Non-Wizard. All this does is prove that the Admixture school is really damn awesome.

Other feats, like Spell Specialization, Spell Focus, Mage's Tattoo, etc. can buff up your damage spells significantly, increasing Save DCs, Caster Level (for scaling), and so on, and are fully recommended. There's also metamagic feats like Heighten Spell, Selective Spell, etc. which can save you a lot of pain and headache and anguish. Oh, and Dazing Spell to cause the same symptoms.

Character Traits can really help in bringing out your power without costing you anything. Metamagic Master, a Regional Trait, allows you to reduce the Metamagic cost of a single spell of 3rd level or lower by 1. Magical Lineage, a Magic Trait, allows the same as above, except for any spell of your choice, and these stack. So by 5th level, with Metamagic Master and Magical Lineage, you can be throwing Empowered Fireballs for free.

Spell Perfection is the ultimate late-game blasting feat, as it allows you to monopolize your spell slots incredibly, and apply a single metamagic feat for free (with limitations, of course). A spell that you could normally only cast 3-4 times, can now be cast as much as 15-20 times, and plus it doubles the benefits of all your miscellaneous feats (Spell Specialization, Mage's Tattoo, etc.) in relation to the chosen spell.

The shame is that most of these options aren't Core, nor are a lot of them even Hardcover. Blasting is a lot like the Dexterity to Damage for Casters.


Sundakan wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Unless you use one of the many methods to get that slot back, of course.
Without spending a GP? Good luck with that...

I'd love to know where you get the gas for your car, since it's free...

Spending a renewable resource to regain a nonrenewable resource is a good trade.

The way you're explain your argument, il sounds like you're relying a LOT on items, be mundane or magical.

A Kineticist isn't as gear-reliant as a typical arcane spellcaster last time I check.

A Kineticist doesn't need a spell component pouch and material (as often as THIS has come into play :P ), doesn't need to prepare spells ahead of time (wizard) or waste a slot for an impromptu spell (sorcerer), doesn't need to sacrifice higher spell slots for better spells via metamagic feats and doesn't need multiple magic items to stay afloat.

Sure, a Kineticist has a major weakness: the Burn mecanic, which doesn't heal via magic... somehow... yeah, ok, that's one thing I still don't understand. However, he has a way reduce and even NEGATE the Burn cost.

The arcane spellcaster cannot spend more time casting the spell without spending a slot and material and focus and whatnot.

One exception: the Marid Bloodline gives you a line-based spell-like attack... at will... and that's it. The rest? All daily uses...


No, a caster does not rely A LOT on items.

He relies A LOT on the daily uses of his spells which are generally MORE THAN ENOUGH to last the day.

And then he relies on items on the excruciatingly rare occasion that he runs out of spells past level 5 or 6.

You're falling into the big trap of "at-will".

No, the Kineticist doesn't need to "waste" a spell slot on an impromptu spell. You're right, he's not getting rid of one of his uses of Kinetic Blast (Shocking Grasp) for a casting of Ant Haul.

Because the Kineticist is entirely incapable of making that trade to begin with.

The Sorcerer has the OPTION to trade damage for utility. The Kineticist does not.

Having more options is NOT a downside.


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Just a Mort wrote:
I could see myself giving up some hexes, all my major and grand hexes, but not all of them :( Hexes are part of being witch. If I had no hexes, I couldn't call myself a witch any longer :(

Maybe your concept of witch is a bit too narrow? Before Paizo came out with a witch class, story wise, any reclusive druid, wizard, or sorcerer would frequently be called a witch if they were female. There's no reason to change that just because we have a witch class.

Similarly, the role of priest is not hard-coupled to the cleric, or even the warpriest class.

Role and Class have a relationship but not as rigid as many seem to think.


JiCi wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
JiCi wrote:
Sundakan wrote:
Unless you use one of the many methods to get that slot back, of course.
Without spending a GP? Good luck with that...

I'd love to know where you get the gas for your car, since it's free...

Spending a renewable resource to regain a nonrenewable resource is a good trade.

The way you're explain your argument, il sounds like you're relying a LOT on items, be mundane or magical.

A Kineticist isn't as gear-reliant as a typical arcane spellcaster last time I check.

A Kineticist doesn't need a spell component pouch and material (as often as THIS has come into play :P ), doesn't need to prepare spells ahead of time (wizard) or waste a slot for an impromptu spell (sorcerer), doesn't need to sacrifice higher spell slots for better spells via metamagic feats and doesn't need multiple magic items to stay afloat.

Sure, a Kineticist has a major weakness: the Burn mecanic, which doesn't heal via magic... somehow... yeah, ok, that's one thing I still don't understand. However, he has a way reduce and even NEGATE the Burn cost.

The arcane spellcaster cannot spend more time casting the spell without spending a slot and material and focus and whatnot.

One exception: the Marid Bloodline gives you a line-based spell-like attack... at will... and that's it. The rest? All daily uses...

Headbands, a Metamagic Rod or two, and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone are all a Full Spellcaster absolutely needs/wants. The other stuff isn't absolutely necessary, but still quite good to have (Wands, Staves, Pearls/Runestones of Power, Bracers of Armor, and so on). I'd say that a Kineticist would be only slightly less gear reliant than a full spellcaster, if only because they don't have resource management (sans Burn, but, apples and oranges).

I've already provided a level 1 example of a non-God-Wizard being able to nullify ~3 encounters each day, and that only scales upward in damage and overall effectiveness. If you're dealing with more than 3 encounters per day, at 1st level, I can assure you that you'll be dealing with problems much worse than running out of offensive spell slots, at a much quicker rate.

Plus, even if he does run out of spell slots, Crossbows and Cantrips are still effective for the first few levels of the game, because the odds of running into high DR/Resistance enemies are few and far between; if your GM is throwing such enemies at you in the first couple levels of the game, I can equally assure you that your fellow PCs will be equally useless and powerless against them.

At-Will gets a lot more credit than is actually necessary. In 90% of situations, having a 3/day, or even a 5/day usage item is equally as effective as an At-Will item.


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The main issue of the kineticist vs. 9th level casters is this; no class in th Pathfinder game is going to be anywhere near as good as a 9th level caster in terms of power and adaptability. It drives me nuts when people compare them, because you are literally comparing apples to oranges. If you want to play a blaster class that can consistently dish out good damage that also has a little bit of utility, then the kineticist is for you. If you want to play a blaster that can also adapt to more utility type situations, then a 9th level caster is for you.

I love the kineticist, but I will not sit here and say that they are better than a 9th level, because they aren't in terms of general power. But to say that the kineticist is a terrible class because they cannot match up with a 9th level caster is ludicrous. No class other than a 9th level caster can be compared to one another.


You can, however compare their blasting capability. And you can do so while ignoring all other aspects of the classes. However, a lot of people, when they compare the two, get drawn into the idea that casters can be comparable blasters to Kineticists AND are better at utility.

Now, I agree that casters are better at utility. However, if ALL a player cares about is blasting, you can extol the utility benefits of a caster all day long. But at the end of the day, the player will still want to know if they can blast better than other options, like the Kineticist. Which means you have to compare JUST the blasting capabilities, show the player that, yes a wizard/sorcerer/druid can blast at least as well as a Kineticist, and then point out that, in addition to that, they have access to better utility.

If the Kineticist comes out on top by just the smallest amount, the blaster player will likely pass on the caster, even if that minor advantage in the damage department would be over-shadowed by the amazing utility flexibility of a 9th level caster.

Based on what I've seen mentioned here so far, though, it looks like both a Kineticist and a Caster can roll approximately 1d6/level in damage dice at later levels, which would even them up. However, it looks like casters, being able to get +2-3 damage per die as well, means that they can be looking to add around 40-60 static mod damage to those dice. Whereas the Kineticist will likely only be getting about 20-30 static mod. This puts the caster ahead on damage until he runs out of spells. But by the time we are talking about such high static mods, the caster has all the spells in the world to finish off encounters as well.

Now, those static mods are just rough estimates I did, as I'm not that great at min-maxing because I always forget to include something here or there, but it's the general approximation that I'm getting based off the stuff I've seen mentioned.

That all being said, as has already been mentioned: adventuring days can vary wildly, and getting up to those higher levels takes a while, and most campaigns likely won't even make it that far. Which means you have to take the growing pains into consideration. The lower the level, the thinner the margin of difference, and the better a reliably available blast looks compared to a decreasingly small amount of spells available.


Sundakan wrote:

No, a caster does not rely A LOT on items.

He relies A LOT on the daily uses of his spells which are generally MORE THAN ENOUGH to last the day.

And then he relies on items on the excruciatingly rare occasion that he runs out of spells past level 5 or 6.

You're falling into the big trap of "at-will".

No, the Kineticist doesn't need to "waste" a spell slot on an impromptu spell. You're right, he's not getting rid of one of his uses of Kinetic Blast (Shocking Grasp) for a casting of Ant Haul.

Because the Kineticist is entirely incapable of making that trade to begin with.

The Sorcerer has the OPTION to trade damage for utility. The Kineticist does not.

Having more options is NOT a downside.

I'm not saying that having more options is problematic. In fact, kineticists do have some utility talents, depending on the elements you've selected.

What I'm saying is this: as an arcane spellcaster, you're spending "resources" in order to use your other spells. That's not the case with the Kineticist. I can use all of my talents without Burning myself out if I desire; you can't cast your spells without expending a slot save for cantrips... but those aren't close to the same level as talents.

Beside, a kineticist feels like it was never designed to be an utility character... at all. A kineticist is basically a "Fighter" specialized using a very specific weapon, the Kinetict Blast, not a "Wizard" specialized using a very specific spell. For a lightning blaster, the kineticist is better fit for the job.


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Except blaster casters, pound for pound, BLAST BETTER. They don't have as much staying power if you have an arbitrarily long adventuring day, but every spell they cast is going to be stronger.

Simply being able to cast Fireball at level 5 trumps a Kineticist, who can't do Fireball before level 13. And only then if they're Fire. Good luck matching an Admixture specialist for example, who can make a Cold Fireball, or some such, where every other element is stuck dealing half or even 1/4(!) damage to deal it in an AoE.

This isn't even taking into account the resources casters have to give themselves more damage than a Blast any time they cast a blasting spell.

This isn't some debate about whether more firepower > more utility, that's somewhat subjective.

This is numbers. Casters have more firepower AND ALSO more utility.

You are correct in your assessment that the Kineticist is basically a Fighter (closer to a Ranger with the small amount of utility it gets) whose chosen weapon is "elemental damage".

The conclusion you are reaching, however, is that automatically makes it a BETTER blaster, rather than merely a much simpler, much less fuss required blaster.

A Kineticist is much easier to build (mostly because Seifter did a frustratingly good job of capping both its floor and ceiling so system mastery is nearly taken out as a factor when discussing the class' power), but given a relatively moderate level of optimization, a caster will still blast harder and have spells left over to do more.

Liberty's Edge

Kineticist is too dang complicated. Go Sorcerer.


Sundakan wrote:

Except blaster casters, pound for pound, BLAST BETTER. They don't have as much staying power if you have an arbitrarily long adventuring day, but every spell they cast is going to be stronger.

Simply being able to cast Fireball at level 5 trumps a Kineticist, who can't do Fireball before level 13. And only then if they're Fire. Good luck matching an Admixture specialist for example, who can make a Cold Fireball, or some such, where every other element is stuck dealing half or even 1/4(!) damage to deal it in an AoE.

This isn't even taking into account the resources casters have to give themselves more damage than a Blast any time they cast a blasting spell.

This isn't some debate about whether more firepower > more utility, that's somewhat subjective.

This is numbers. Casters have more firepower AND ALSO more utility.

You are correct in your assessment that the Kineticist is basically a Fighter (closer to a Ranger with the small amount of utility it gets) whose chosen weapon is "elemental damage".

The conclusion you are reaching, however, is that automatically makes it a BETTER blaster, rather than merely a much simpler, much less fuss required blaster.

A Kineticist is much easier to build (mostly because Seifter did a frustratingly good job of capping both its floor and ceiling so system mastery is nearly taken out as a factor when discussing the class' power), but given a relatively moderate level of optimization, a caster will still blast harder and have spells left over to do more.

Ok, here's something we might not have considered: Dice rolls

You miss an attack roll, be melee or ranged touch, and your spell is wasted...

The target makes its save, and your spell is wasted...

The target resists the spell (via SR), and your spell is wasted...

You roll a LOT of 1s, and your spell is wasted...

The encounter can last several rounds...

The kineticist can whip up another blast next round, because he can do so. Your sorcerer can't. I get that there are ways to make your spells more accurate and more powerful... but the random factor based on a die roll makes spells a rather "risky" choice, to a certain extend.

Guess I'm saying that the Kineticist has a more reliable and safer way of dealing damage than a spellcaster. Sure, I can't make a ball-shaped Blast until 13th level as a Kineticist, but at least I still have a ranged touch attack and even melee touch attacks via Kinetic Blade.

A sorcerer can cast Shocking Grasp and Lightning Bolt as many times that his slots can allow him, but you'll soon hit a point where you might want to hold your lightning spells in case you need other spells after the encounter. At that point, you'd be better off with wands for your offensive spells and leave your spell slots for other spells. Dude, there's no shame at being a lightning blaster using wands last time I checked.

Finally, might as well tell you, I once ran an encounter with a bard who ended up "wasting" all her sonic-based spells on a single monster because of poor rolls. Whether it's poor management or simply bad luck, it's still something against spellcasters versus Kineticists. You can run out of spells... but you cannot run out of talents.

On a side note, the Kineticist has medium BAB, good Fort and Ref saves, proficiency with light armors with no arcane spell failure, better hit points per level and possibly a LOT of hit points since the class is Constitution-based. Aside from the poor Will save, it looks better than the sorcerer or the wizard in those departments too.


And yet the game has worked just fine for the 7 or 8 years before the Kineticist existed as far as casters doing just fine (and more than fine) using spells that require touch attacks and saves.

And nobody has ever claimed casters are too ineffectual in this system.

Again might, could, maybe should.

You MIGHT roll a string of 1s in a row.

Your enemy MIGHT roll a string of 20s in a row.

It's unlikely. And you don't build a character based around what MIGHT be a poor choice .00000000000000000000000000001% of the time.

Yes. I get it. Kinetic Blast is at-will. I have acknowledged this. I note it as a slight situational advantage.

It is not one that outweighs any of the other concerns.


JiCi wrote:
Sundakan wrote:

Except blaster casters, pound for pound, BLAST BETTER. They don't have as much staying power if you have an arbitrarily long adventuring day, but every spell they cast is going to be stronger.

Simply being able to cast Fireball at level 5 trumps a Kineticist, who can't do Fireball before level 13. And only then if they're Fire. Good luck matching an Admixture specialist for example, who can make a Cold Fireball, or some such, where every other element is stuck dealing half or even 1/4(!) damage to deal it in an AoE.

This isn't even taking into account the resources casters have to give themselves more damage than a Blast any time they cast a blasting spell.

This isn't some debate about whether more firepower > more utility, that's somewhat subjective.

This is numbers. Casters have more firepower AND ALSO more utility.

You are correct in your assessment that the Kineticist is basically a Fighter (closer to a Ranger with the small amount of utility it gets) whose chosen weapon is "elemental damage".

The conclusion you are reaching, however, is that automatically makes it a BETTER blaster, rather than merely a much simpler, much less fuss required blaster.

A Kineticist is much easier to build (mostly because Seifter did a frustratingly good job of capping both its floor and ceiling so system mastery is nearly taken out as a factor when discussing the class' power), but given a relatively moderate level of optimization, a caster will still blast harder and have spells left over to do more.

Ok, here's something we might not have considered: Dice rolls

You miss an attack roll, be melee or ranged touch, and your spell is wasted...

The target makes its save, and your spell is wasted...

The target resists the spell (via SR), and your spell is wasted...

You roll a LOT of 1s, and your spell is wasted...

The encounter can last several rounds...

The kineticist can whip up another blast next round, because he can do so. Your sorcerer can't. I...

Attack Rolls only apply for spells that need them. Fireball and the like don't need Attack Rolls, so for them, it's a moot argument. In addition, most attack rolls are Ranged Touch, which is the easiest kind of AC to hit. Even with half BAB, beefing your Dexterity, tossing up some Heroism, using Undead Anatomy II, being Invisible and Flying gives bonuses against enemies who can't see you, and so on, will make the likelihood of you missing the same as anyone else getting a bad dice roll. And guess what? It happens. Get over it.

A lot of Saving Throws only reduce the damage in half; Blasters don't use Save/Suck spells, and if they do, it's very rarely that it is the case. This is really only a problem with characters who have Evasion, be it through class features or a Ring. Regardless, unless they are purely Dexterity-based, Human Barbarian with Superstition, or even presuming a Good Reflex Saving Throw progression, they're still going to struggle making a Saving Throw; think the inverse of the above situation.

As for Spell Resistance, that's a cute argument. A specialized Blaster will have ~+5 to their Spell Penetration resistance in addition to their standard bonuses, and that's just in general, starting out in the early game. Arcanists can add an extra +2 to that, and the standard bonuses DOUBLE with Spell Perfection. The highest Spell Resistance amount is equal to 12 + HD. With the specialized blast, the ONLY way they can fail is on a 1, and that's presuming 1's are an automatic fail. Nice try on this one.

Maximized Metamagic makes it so that you don't really need to roll. It's +3 spell level, but that's precisely what makes a Metamagic Rod so good. Even so, Spell Perfection can let you tack on something like that for free, in addition to a Metamagic Rod.

As for the encounters lasting several rounds, that's only if the GM is throwing an ungodly amount of creatures, or throwing something way, way above your paygrade. CR Relevant enemies (depending on the blasting build) are reliably one-rounded, no matter which way you slice it.

And by "way above your paygrade," I mean APL + 20 sorts of things, which is either a super-duper bad guy, or ~10,000 goblins, in which case, that Kineticist wouldn't last any better, because he has his own resource to manage, Burn, which suffers worse issues than what Full Spellcasters run into.

**EDIT**

Medium BAB only helps with their to-hit; only a Single Target Blaster needs to-hit, and they have buff spells to provide them.

Saving Throws are only relevant if you're stupid enough to suffer under them. A lot of proper defenses aside from using the saving throw itself are where a Spellcaster truly shines, and every Spellcaster worth his salt will employ them. He'd be stupid not to, and deserves the fate that befalls him if he doesn't. A Necklace that makes him immune to Disease and Poison makes 90% of Fortitude Saves go away, as just one example.

Certain Light Armors can be worn without issue; a +5 Silken Ceremonial Armor (or Haramaki) can be worn, in addition to a +5 Mithril Buckler. The best part, said Spellcaster can still cast his spells, without any issue, and have a more than amicable defense (though in my opinion, this is completely unnecessary and really only good when you're at level 20 and WBL doesn't matter; all this does is show the defensive possibilities if they so choose to go that way).


Ill make a side-by-side comparison between a tier 9 spell and Composite Blast.

Composite blast (energy) does 2d6+(0.5)constitution modifier multipled by up to 9. Lets say its Con 28-9 for the situation. 72 average damage

Tier 9 Meteor Swarm does 8d6 damage and has 4 attacks. Without damage modifiers its 28 average damage per hit and 112 average with one spell. also each attack has a 40foot blast radius.


Kinetic blasts are spell like so I don't understand how SR is a problem for the spellcasters and not for the kinetists in question.


Well, it sort of is and sort of isn't. SR doesn't apply to physical Blasts (presumably because they're akin to Conjuration effects).

Of course, those have the issue of hitting normal (not Touch) AC, on a 3/4 BaB class...


Sundakan wrote:

Well, it sort of is and sort of isn't. SR doesn't apply to physical Blasts (presumably because they're akin to Conjuration effects).

Of course, those have the issue of hitting normal (not Touch) AC, on a 3/4 BaB class...

Worse than that, you cannot get a weapon to boost you hit chance, so ultimately you would have a lower chance to hit than just about anyone else.

I do wonder why anyone would use physical blasts over energy ones, aside from having an option of a different element. Still doesnt mean Physical blast is that useful. Once people start getting AC boosts, physical blasts become almost useless .

For example, a Red Dragon Great Wyrm has 39 Ac, 0 touch ac. Try hitting that with a physical blast!


Sundakan wrote:

Well, it sort of is and sort of isn't. SR doesn't apply to physical Blasts (presumably because they're akin to Conjuration effects).

Of course, those have the issue of hitting normal (not Touch) AC, on a 3/4 BaB class...

Granted the OP is focused on lightning only so ignoring SR isn't going to happen for him.

I guess what I am suggesting is a flag on the field for false argument; calling the other side for a flaw that is shared without explaining why it isn't an issue for oneself.

Honestly it's even less of a problem for the spell caster because he has more means of overcoming it as has been pointed out.

So for the sake of comparison how does the kinetists deal with SR when using elemental blasts?

Also since he is making ranged attacks I would point out he is also provoking twice, where as with blasts the spellcaster is only provoking once.

Granted there are ways around all of this but they are not cheap for the kinetists.


ChaosTicket wrote:
Sundakan wrote:

Well, it sort of is and sort of isn't. SR doesn't apply to physical Blasts (presumably because they're akin to Conjuration effects).

Of course, those have the issue of hitting normal (not Touch) AC, on a 3/4 BaB class...

Worse than that, you cannot get a weapon to boost you hit chance, so ultimately you would have a lower chance to hit than just about anyone else.

I do wonder why anyone would use physical blasts over energy ones, aside from having an option of a different element. Still doesnt mean Physical blast is that useful. Once people start getting AC boosts, physical blasts become almost useless .

For example, a Red Dragon Great Wyrm has 39 Ac, 0 touch ac. Try hitting that with a physical blast!

That's really not that difficult... Assuming you're fighting a great wyrm at 20th level. 15 BaB + 6 Elemental Overflow + 8 Dex (Assuming a starting point of 16 +4 from EO and a +6 Bonus to Dex item and not adding any extra points into Dex from leveling) gives you a +29. You can then also add on Weapon Focus that brings you up to +30 vs. an AC of 38 (not 39). That's not including any buffs (which you should have at 20th level). So on an 8 or better before any extra bonuses that should be included at higher levels.

Abraham spalding wrote:
Sundakan wrote:

Well, it sort of is and sort of isn't. SR doesn't apply to physical Blasts (presumably because they're akin to Conjuration effects).

Of course, those have the issue of hitting normal (not Touch) AC, on a 3/4 BaB class...

Granted the OP is focused on lightning only so ignoring SR isn't going to happen for him.

I guess what I am suggesting is a flag on the field for false argument; calling the other side for a flaw that is shared without explaining why it isn't an issue for oneself.

Honestly it's even less of a problem for the spell caster because he has more means of overcoming it as has been pointed out.

So for the sake of comparison how does the kinetists deal with SR when using elemental blasts?

Also since he is making ranged attacks I would point out he is also provoking twice, where as with blasts the spellcaster is only provoking once.

Granted there are ways around all of this but they are not cheap for the kinetists.

One, he deals with SR like any spell caster; you pick up Spell Penetration to aid.

Any kineticist that stands adjacent to an enemy to use a ranged kinetic blast and not doing something to avoid the AoO is stupid. In situations like that you 5' step away or switch to Kinetic Blade and smack the adjacent enemy in the face.


Well yes, but it was raised as a point against the spell caster, when in fact it is a point against both of them.

Also the kineticists cannot raise caster level on spells so all he has is spell penetration and greater spell penetration. Which makes life a bit harder for him.

Granted in most cases (greater) spell penetration is going to be enough but not always.

I'm mostly pointing out that it's a bs argument to raise against the spellcaster due to its shared nature.


A VERY situational note, but an energy Blast based Kineticist would be pretty screwed in Mythic games.

I played an Oracle up to 20th level/Mythic Tier 10 and it took all I had to bust through the 40+ SRs being tossed around.

Leaving out that no Mythic Path supports the Kineticist, they simply wouldn't have a lot of the options available I'd used to raise my caster level and such.


I think that even in the Blaster role, the Kineticists would have problems. There arent many area attacks that the Kineticists can use. To use ANY of them you would need several stacking Burn reductions.

A Sorcerer can take Fireball for granted, but a only through specific elements can kineticist get something similar.

1 Eruption, 120foot range, 10foot radius. Works with Fire element blasts. Does half damage if physical, so no point in using with Composite.

2 Explosion is a high tier ability. 120foot range 20 foot radius only works one 2 specific blasts.

3 Cyclone, 20 foot radius air attack centered on YOU. Half damage.

4 deadly earth, middle tier, 120 foot range, 20 foot radius, does a quarter damage with no save allowed

So to get a weaker equivalent of FIREBALL you have to wait until about level 15.

There are crazy powerful area attacks available to casters.


There's other areas: Fan of Flames, Spray, Torrent and Wall, and some almost-areas: Chain and Impale. That said areas aren't the best for kinnys, not least because there's other infusions you want. Here's the list of infusions for my goblin pyro 10 in a game which didn't quite get off the ground:

Draining Infusion
Kinetic Blade
Extended Range
Fan of Flames
Unravelling Infusion

Just the one there which has an area at all and it's not a big one.


My point being that eventually as a Caster youre nuking armies while the Kineticist has small area attacks at best.

Disintegrate, Prismatic Spray, Horrid Wilting, Meteor Swarm, WISH, and so on.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Also the kineticists cannot raise caster level on spells so all he has is spell penetration and greater spell penetration. Which makes life a bit harder for him.

Granted in most cases (greater) spell penetration is going to be enough but not always.

Actually, they can get Piercing Spell as a metakinesis now so they can get another +5 to piercing SR.


Sundakan wrote:

And yet the game has worked just fine for the 7 or 8 years before the Kineticist existed as far as casters doing just fine (and more than fine) using spells that require touch attacks and saves.

And nobody has ever claimed casters are too ineffectual in this system.

I'm not saying that the arcane classes are broken or underpowered, I just feel like they're not very good to be specialists in casting evocation spells of a certain energy type. I wouldn't complain if each energy type would have like 3 or 4 spells PER level, but that's not the case.

A spell's area of effect is dependent on the spell's level, technically speaking. I think it's a little problematic when you can't affect a certain amount of creatures because you don't have access to the right area. Don't get me wrong, the Kineticist could use an errata that basically "correct" the form infusions, so ALL of them could be applied to ALL blasts, regardless of being physical or energy.

That got me thinking: if 3rd party materials are allowed, I'd actually go for the psion (kineticist discipline), the psychic warrior or soul knife (Gifted Blade archetype; the latter two taking the Expanded Knowledge feat).
- Their Energy powers only vary in shape/effect, unlike with spells, which you'd need an energy-swapping metamagic feat... that increases the spell level. (Seriously, back in 3.5, the Energy Substitution feat didn't increase the spell level at all)
- They have 4 energy types to select, including electricity. The same power can be used for different targets with different resistances/weaknesses.
- While each power has a minimum point cost, they can power them up using more power points. That 1st-level power can be as devastating as that same 5th-level power, as only the area of effect changes.

I guess that it also comes down to areas of effect. The Kinetic Blast and the psionic Energy powers are more versatile than spells. You're stuck with a line-based spell with Lightning Bolt and have to pick Ball Lightning to get a different AoE (this time, a radius), because there is no cheap way to alter a spell's enery type without increasing the spell level. And no, there is no archetype for that either, I've checked...

Feel free to correct me though.


JiCi wrote:
Sundakan wrote:

And yet the game has worked just fine for the 7 or 8 years before the Kineticist existed as far as casters doing just fine (and more than fine) using spells that require touch attacks and saves.

And nobody has ever claimed casters are too ineffectual in this system.

I'm not saying that the arcane classes are broken or underpowered, I just feel like they're not very good to be specialists in casting evocation spells of a certain energy type. I wouldn't complain if each energy type would have like 3 or 4 spells PER level, but that's not the case.

A spell's area of effect is dependent on the spell's level, technically speaking. I think it's a little problematic when you can't affect a certain amount of creatures because you don't have access to the right area. Don't get me wrong, the Kineticist could use an errata that basically "correct" the form infusions, so ALL of them could be applied to ALL blasts, regardless of being physical or energy.

That got me thinking: if 3rd party materials are allowed, I'd actually go for the psion (kineticist discipline), the psychic warrior or soul knife (Gifted Blade archetype; the latter two taking the Expanded Knowledge feat).
- Their Energy powers only vary in shape/effect, unlike with spells, which you'd need an energy-swapping metamagic feat... that increases the spell level. (Seriously, back in 3.5, the Energy Substitution feat didn't increase the spell level at all)
- They have 4 energy types to select, including electricity. The same power can be used for different targets with different resistances/weaknesses.
- While each power has a minimum point cost, they can power them up using more power points. That 1st-level power can be as devastating as that same 5th-level power, as only the area of effect changes.

I guess that it also comes down to areas of effect. The Kinetic Blast and the psionic Energy powers are more versatile than spells. You're stuck with a line-based spell with Lightning Bolt and have to pick Ball Lightning to...

If we're playing a pure Core game, you'd be correct; blasting is inoptimal because in a standard game, you don't have the tools to deal with resistances/immunities, your ability to overcome spell resistance and the like are significantly reduced, and plus your early damage is garbage (which is what makes God Wizards so much better in a Core game, because they aren't limited to relying on non-Core options to become extremely good).

There is no Elemental Spell metamagic, there is no Admixture School, there are no Spell Specialization/Spell Perfection feats, or anything similar to that to boost CL to make the early game any good (and the mid and late games even more powerful), and so on. These are things that are vital for Blasters to survive in any combat situation, because otherwise, in a lot of them, they're absolutely screwed.

Last I checked, Kineticists don't have any of these sorts of tools to help out; they might have other tools (Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, et. al.), but they don't offer the same amount of power, and a lot of tools they do have don't have the same level of versatility, or show up until it's way too late for them to be necessary. I remember somebody said that they don't get access to three elemental blasts until way late in the game. I mean, even Sorcerers aren't even that cool, having to spend ~3 Metamagic Feats to do so, but Arcanists can get access to the 4 Primary Elements as early as 1st level (though more Blast-focused Arcanists [read: Blood Arcanist] don't get it until 5th level, which is when resistance/immunities become common), and so can a Wizard.


ChaosTicket wrote:

Disintegrate, Prismatic Spray, Horrid Wilting, Meteor Swarm, WISH, and so on.

None of these help make a lightning-based blaster (beyond wish). Meteor Swarm is close due to admixture wizards.

@OP: I think this discussion has been thoroughly hashed-out. Casters will ultimately be stronger and more versatile, yet kineticists will last longer in dungeon crawls and longer days, while still doing plenty of damage and having at least some utility.

Scarab Sages

Casters are also a lot easier to screw up. They have trap options, poor hp, and poor BAB, and if you don't have system mastery, it's easy to make a blaster caster suck. Kineticist with its high optimization floor and low ceiling make it easier to make an effective blaster without needing 5 books, a non-intuitive multiclass dip, and some obscure feats and traits.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


Headbands, a Metamagic Rod or two, and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone are all a Full Spellcaster absolutely needs/wants.

He wants that but doesn't need it. The difference is that equivalent gear that the kinny wants doesn't actually exist in the game. Again, having options is not a downside.

RaizielDragon wrote:
you have to compare JUST the blasting capabilities, show the player that, yes a wizard/sorcerer/druid can blast at least as well as a Kineticist, and then point out that, in addition to that, they have access to better utility.

Yes. As pointed out earlier in this thread, a baseline draconic sorcerer or evoker wizard deals more damage (and in a bigger area) than a kinny AND can keep this up all day at level six and up.

Ironically, a full caster focusing on blasting is also easier to play than the needlessly convoluted kinny.

Finally, I find it funny that people keep bringing up that "casters are weaker in Core-only", considering kinnies don't exist in Core-only.

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