Flurry of Blows + Hammer the Gap = does it work?


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Greetings, title says it all- Can I use Hammer the Gap when I'm using a Flurry of Blows?

Hammer the Gap mentions "full-round attack" and as far as i know, a Flurry is a full round attack.

I'm looking for damage options for my monk as she heads towards level 11, and I am not taking Power Attack.

Thanks much


They should work together.


I use it that way with my brawler characters brawlers flurry.


Yes, FoB is a full-attack so Hammer the Gap works with it.

Grand Lodge

Good to know. :D with my Hungry Ghost Monk & Vicious Stomp and Boar Style- against one poor enemy, in a flurry, that's a possible +12 +2d6 to damage.

I was considering Pummeling Style [to mitigate damage reduction per strike] or Elemental Fist [but only 2 times per day for 1d6 damage?].
Hammer the Gap is definitely a top contender for an 11th Lvl Feat.

Scarab Sages

Hammer the gap is usable with flurry of blows. If it works is another question. Flurry of misses tends to interrupt the bonus damage.

Grand Lodge

Imbicatus wrote:
Hammer the gap is usable with flurry of blows. If it works is another question. Flurry of misses tends to interrupt the bonus damage.

There's always that chance to miss an attack, but that extra damage possibility is something to consider when i don't have power attack.

if the Punishing Kick knocks them prone, then my odds go up a bit when i strike at Prone AC.

Five Flurries (with Ki & Punishing Kick)+ Vicious Stomp + Boar Style = (2d6+5)!6+2d6 is 57dmg at minimum, if they all connect.
(yes, I know power attack/flurry/htg is at minimum 78 dmg.)


That's a good point about the prone thing.

I've never been a fan, myself. However, hammer the gap works well with Furyborn. It would help the damage scale and also make sure you are hitting the target. I just don't like that one much either but together they mesh really well.


Could I ask why you aren't taking Power Attack?

It's the most standard way of dealing melee damage, and is generally considered to be mandatory for any melee damage build.
If you're worried about accuracy issues, don't be. The extra damage is more than worth it, like you said above.

With your chained monk, your BAB nets you a -3 attack/+6 damage ratio, and wig your flurry mimicking full-BAB in combination with the tripping trick means that your accuracy will rarely suffer enough for you to miss, and the extra 6 damage really does add up over the Hammer the Gap bonus.


Unchained monk has almost no inbuilt increases to attack rolls to offset the penalties, so I think they're trying to make themselves more accurate and looking for damage that utilizes their huge quantity of attacks.

Scarab Sages

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What I've done is not take power attack but instead buy a pair of deli quiescent gloves. 3.5 acid per hit is very nice against most things, and doesn't take a feat or have an accuracy reducer.


If you're picking up Hammer the Gap, be 100% sure to take Medusa's Wrath as your 10th level feat. Because Monks have really easy access to things like Stunning Fist, you can dole out another 2 hits at full BAB fairly easily.

Grand Lodge

bigrig107 wrote:
Could I ask why you aren't taking Power Attack?

To me, Power Attack is a "go-to" for full-BAB frontliners.

Monks are more suited for technique and skill.

Yes, the damage increase is nice, but when you miss an opponent's AC by 1 because you're power attacking makes the whole damage bonus moot.

If a raging barbarbain missed with a power attack, he has his armor and HP pool to back him up.
Monks rely on their Dex and Wisdom for armor, and where Wisdom is of highest importance, not investing in Dex for bonus to Strength can/will hurt.

Imbicatus wrote:
What I've done is not take power attack but instead buy a pair of deli quiescent gloves. 3.5 acid per hit is very nice against most things, and doesn't take a feat or have an accuracy reducer.

I've invested in Handwraps of Blinding Ki-that extra Punishing Kick during a flurry helps when i'm close enough to two enemies to divvy up my flurries.

The Gloves are nice, but i like the idea of multiple Punishing Kicks in a flurry to be more beneficial.
I have 10 of them a day, why not make use of them?

My Self wrote:
If you're picking up Hammer the Gap, be 100% sure to take Medusa's Wrath as your 10th level feat. Because Monks have really easy access to things like Stunning Fist, you can dole out another 2 hits at full BAB fairly easily.

:/ Hungry Ghost Monks lose Stunning Fist for Punishing Kick. Unless "knocked prone" counts as "flat-footed" it's not useful for me.

I opted for Spring Attack for lvl 10. Run up to an enemy, Punishing Kick, Vicious Stomp, Boar Style, run closer to the next enemy.
With a pair of Longarm Bracers, i don't have to get in their face.


Selvaxri wrote:
bigrig107 wrote:
Could I ask why you aren't taking Power Attack?

To me, Power Attack is a "go-to" for full-BAB frontliners.

Monks are more suited for technique and skill.

Yes, the damage increase is nice, but when you miss an opponent's AC by 1 because you're power attacking makes the whole damage bonus moot.

If a raging barbarbain missed with a power attack, he has his armor and HP pool to back him up.
Monks rely on their Dex and Wisdom for armor, and where Wisdom is of highest importance, not investing in Dex for bonus to Strength can/will hurt.

See, here's the funny thing.

Dealing 1 damage less than the opponent's HP also sucks, and a lower Strength is likely to make Power Attack better, not worse. Not unless you have a lot of other sources of damage.

Mind you, Hammer the Gap could give you better performance. It's just that this is the sort of dilemma that can only be solved reliably with number crunching.

If you toss up your character's attack routine, I could probably calculate their DPR with Power Attack vs Hammer the Gap, and outright tell you which one is likely to get you more mileage.


Mathfinder!


Cavall wrote:
Mathfinder!

Yeah, gotta work out that university level maths knowledge as much as possible.

Grand Lodge

This isn't a debate or discussion over the merits of Power Attack vs Hammer the Gap; nor is it a discussion on how to build a monk.
Twas simply a question as to if Hammer the Gap works within a Flurry of Blows.

I like how my monk is built, so i see no reason to get Power Attack.

QAPC.


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But...But....

Math

Grand Lodge

Snowblind wrote:

But...But....

Math

With my build, against one target:

Flurry w/ HtG w/o PA = 57 min dmg
Flurry w/ PA w/o HtG = 68 min dmg
Flurry w/ both = 78 min dmg

Power Attack is great when i'm splitting my flurry.


bigrig107 wrote:
It's the most standard way of dealing melee damage, and is generally considered to be mandatory for any melee damage build.

It's really not. For two-weapon fighting, the 1:1 ration for the offhand means PA ist normally not worth it. For one-handed weapons, it depends on accuracy and the damage bonus. For two-handed weapons, the 3:1 ration ensures that PA is almost always good.

Chained unarmed monk is generally struggling with accuracy. -2 from flurry. No increases from class features (no rage, weapon training or similar ability). Lower weapon enhancement because AoMF costs much more.


Actually, AoMF costs as much as equipping a two-weapon build with two magic weapons now. Still slightly crappy for monks but not bad for brawlers.

Also, while Unchained Monk doesn't suffer the -2 and has full BAB, Power Attack is as functional as if the monk was using a one-handed weapon, though it can utilize two-handed weapons with flurry now, and so it would be worth it using those weapons alone. In the end it entirely depends on what weapon you are focusing on, but you still don't get any accuracy improvements in class.


Er, if you flurry with a two-handed weapon, you get the 3:1 ration from power attack. You only get the 1.5 strength modifier on an unchained Monk, though.
The OP said he was a Hungry Ghost Monk, and since UnMonk can't take older archetypes, it must be a cMonk. At level 11, your AoMF would be 1 behind a two-handed weapon, you got -2 from flurry where a barbarian has +3 from rage, and the barbarian might even have Reckless Abandon for another +2. That's -6 to -8 on attack rolls compared to a barbarian.

Quote:
Actually, AoMF costs as much as equipping a two-weapon build with two magic weapons now.

That only means that TWF is further behind on accuracy, as well (in addition to the -2 on attack rolls. WotC, why you hate multiple attacks so much?).


Derklord wrote:
bigrig107 wrote:
It's the most standard way of dealing melee damage, and is generally considered to be mandatory for any melee damage build.

It's really not. For two-weapon fighting, the 1:1 ration for the offhand means PA ist normally not worth it. For one-handed weapons, it depends on accuracy and the damage bonus. For two-handed weapons, the 3:1 ration ensures that PA is almost always good.

Chained unarmed monk is generally struggling with accuracy. -2 from flurry. No increases from class features (no rage, weapon training or similar ability). Lower weapon enhancement because AoMF costs much more.

Keep in mind that, for a Monk, off-hand unarmed attacks count as main-hand attacks so they get full Str and Power Attack bonus. So a Monk using Unarmed Strikes gets 2:1 Power Attack on all their attacks as well as built-in Double Slice.

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