Class Level Guide
1) Unchained Rogue BAB 0 Fort 0 Ref 2 Will 0
- Knife Master Archetype
- Finesse Training: Weapon Finesse
- Sneak Attack +1d8 (Kukris)
- 1st level Feat: Dodge
- 1st level Human Bonus Feat: Mobility
2) Unchained Rogue BAB 1 Fort 0 Ref 3 Will 0
- Knife Master Archetype
- Evasion
- Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Two-Weapon Fighting
3) Unchained Rogue BAB 2 Fort 1 Ref 3 Will 1
- Knife Master Archetype
- DEXTERITY TO DAMAGE FOR SELECT WEAPON (KUKRI)
- Blade Sense: +1 Dodge Bonus to AC vs attacks made with Light Blades
- Sneak Attack +1d8
- 3rd level Feat: Combat Expertise
4) Mobile Fighter BAB 3 Fort 3 Ref 3 Will 1
- Fighter Bonus Feat: Acrobatic
5) Mobile Fighter BAB 4 Fort 4 Ref 3 Will 1
- Agility: +1 to saves vs effects that cause paralysis, slow, entanglement (+1 every 4 lvls after)
- Fighter Bonus Feat: Slayer’s Feint
- 5th level Feat: Spring Attack
6) Mobile Fighter BAB 5 Fort 4 Ref 4 Will 2
- Armor Training 1: Reduce armor check penalty by 1, and increase max DEX by 1 + Move at normal movement speed in medium armor
7) Mobile Fighter BAB 6/1 Fort 5 Ref 4 Will 2
- Fighter Bonus Feat: Canny Tumble
- 7th level Feat: Circling Mongoose
8) Mobile Fighter BAB 7/2 Fort 5 Ref 4 Will 2
- Leaping Attack: +1 to attack/damage rolls if you move at least 5ft before attacking
9) Mobile Fighter BAB 8/3 Fort 6 Ref 5 Will 3
- Agility: +2 to saves vs effects that cause paralysis, slow and entanglement
- Fighter Bonus Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
- 9th level Feat: Two-Weapon Feint
10) Mobile Fighter BAB 9/4 Fort 6 Ref 5 Will 3
- Armor Training 2: Reduce armor check penalty by 2, and increase max DEX by 2 + Move at normal speed in heavy armor
11) Mobile Fighter BAB 10/5 Fort 7 Ref 5 Will 3
- Fighter Bonus Feat: Wind Stance
- 11th level Feat: Step Up
12) Mobile Fighter BAB 11/6/1 Fort 7 Ref 6 Will 4
- Leaping Attack: +2 to attack/damage rolls if you move at least 5ft before attacking
13) Mobile Fighter BAB 12/7/2 Fort 8 Ref 6 Will 4
- Agility: +3 to saves vs effects that cause paralysis, slow and entanglement
- Fighter Bonus Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Feint
- 13th level Feat: Lightning Stance
14) Mobile Fighter BAB 13/8/3 Fort 8 Ref 6 Will 4
- Rapid Attack: Combine Full-Attack with a single move, forgoing atk w/ highest bonus however you can make the remaining attacks anywhere in the movement. Can hit multiple enemies through the movement.
15) Mobile Fighter BAB 14/9/4 Fort 9 Ref 7 Will 5
- Fighter Bonus Feat: Hammer the Gap
- 15th level Feat: Following Step
16) Mobile Fighter BAB 15/10/5 Fort 9 Ref 7 Will 5
- Leaping Attack: +3
17) Mobile Fighter BAB 16/11/6/1 Fort 10 Ref 7 Will 5
- Agility: +4
- Fighter Bonus Feat: Critical Focus
- 17th level Feat: Stunning Critical
18) Mobile Fighter BAB 17/12/7/2 Fort 10 Ref 8 Will 6
- Fleet Footed: +10 base speed, can take 10 on acrobatics check even while threatened
19) Mobile Fighter BAB 18/13/8/3 Fort 11 Ref 8 Will 6
- Fighter Bonus Feat: Blinding Critical
- 19th level Feat: Critical Mastery
20) Mobile Fighter BAB 19/14/9/4 Fort 11 Ref 8 Will 6
- Leaping Attack: +4
I just wanted to make sure everything here works together and if there are other optimizations that would help.
1) Canny Tumble + Circling Mongoose is obvious, every time you make the 5ft movement you make an acrobatics check and are considered to be flanking the foe, this does in fact work yes?
2) Now Canny Tumble + Two-Weapon Feint + Circling Mongoose: Can I now forgo the first attack, and gain flanking and have the target denied their Dexterity bonus?
3) How good is Hammer the Gap? I figure if I use it in conjunction with setup 2 as above, while I lose the one point from the first hit, if they're denied their DEX and considered Flanked it should be easy to get consecutive hits in.
4) Slayer's Feint works with Two-Weapon Feint I would think, so I don't need any CHA because this is literally an Acrobatics build~!
5) Wind Stance gives 20% concealment to RANGED attacks, but Lightning Stance gives 50% concealment, it doesn't specify ranged only so I assume it's for all attacks?
6) Lightning Stance, would it be considered multiple move actions with Circling Mongoose? Would it seem reasonable to house rule that if it doesn't?
Weapon Setup
In the longrun I'm probably going for a buildup of
+5 Keen Kukris of Speed
The base Kukri will be Serrated and Laminated Steel from the D&D 3.0 Mercenaries book
- Serrated: +1 to base Crit range of the Weapon (stacks with Keen)
- Laminated Steel: +1 damage and increase the Critical Multiplier by 1
For those wondering the cost it is like this;
- Masterwork = 300g
- Serrated = 300g
- Laminated Steel = 900g
- Now you take the total cost of the weapon properties (300g+300g+900g) and multiply by the number of properties, in this case 3 as Masterwork counts as a property.
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There are a few issues. Unchained rouges aren't proficient with kukris, how are you getting proficient before your fighter levels? Second, you really should take one more level in unchained rouge. Debilitating injury is very good. Three, mobile fighter is killing your potential as it trades out weapon training, preventing you from gloves of dueling and more importantly, advanced weapon training.
There are a few issues. Unchained rouges aren't proficient with kukris, how are you getting proficient before your fighter levels? Second, you really should take one more level in unchained rouge. Debilitating injury is very good. Three, mobile fighter is killing your potential as it trades out weapon training, preventing you from gloves of dueling and more importantly, advanced weapon training.
I know, I hate it too. I can see taking one more level of Unchained Rogue, I could also do 2 UCRogue, 1 Mobile Fighter, 2UCRogue, 15 M.Fighter.
EDIT: ALSO, I don't need to be proficient for Finesse Training, as Kukris are selectable because they are Finessable.
I'm also no worried about early levels with this build as I'm jumping into the campaign at 8th level (due to a recent death with a my poor Cleric who kept rolling 3 and under for will saves against fear versus Yeth Hounds)
The reason for Mobile Fighter is the base land speed increases, the ability to ALWAYS perform a move action then full-attack rather than having magic items that give X/day uses. That paired with the ability at 15th to always take 10 on an acrobatics check since I'm going to be rolling so many in combat, I figure the 20th level "capstone" of just taking 10 on all my acrobatics checks seemed nice.
1. Yes but your sneak attack is anecdotal. It's good for rogues, not dudes with two sneak dice.
2. Yes.
3. Very bad.
4. Are you playing 10pt. Buy? Otherwise, you have the CHA to spare. With neutral CHA, you should succeed at every feint... not that you'll fight many enemies that can be affected by that, mostly everyone is immune.
5. Lightning Stance only works when taking move actions but yes all attacks.
6. They aren't.
7. I still don't get why you don't go full fighter or rogue. You are washing away the best features of both classes with this build.
1. Yes but your sneak attack is anecdotal. It's good for rogues, not dudes with two sneak dice.
2. Yes.
3. Very bad.
4. Are you playing 10pt. Buy? Otherwise, you have the CHA to spare. With neutral CHA, you should succeed at every feint... not that you'll fight many enemies that can be affected by that, mostly everyone is immune.
5. Lightning Stance only works when taking move actions but yes all attacks.
6. They aren't.
7. I still don't get why you don't go full fighter or rogue. You are washing away the best features of both classes with this build.
DEX based TWF build, DEX to damage with both weapons, and an Extra 2d8 with every flanking hit?
I know it's not a full rogue setup, but the rogue couldn't really cut it at least for all the feats I saw and wanted. I could try a Rogue Circling Mongoose specific build.
Also, the Fighter alone gets me Full-Attack + Move and taking 10 on acrobatics checks, which means I can also take 10 on the feints (as I can perform a feint with an acrobatics check) even when threatened. However I wouldn't get any Dexterity to damage, so I'd have to split focusing with a STR/DEX build.
I'd go Unchained Rogue (Swashbuckler) 3 and Fighter 17(Mutation Warrior). Then go for double kukris from the beginning.
Mutation warior allows you to keep Weapon Training and to increase your dex by +8.
I'd go Unchained Rogue (Swashbuckler) 3 and Fighter 17(Mutation Warrior). Then go for double kukris from the beginning.
Mutation warior allows you to keep Weapon Training and to increase your dex by +8.
Not bad, I never considered the Mutation Fighter, I might go 4 UCR(Swash) and 16 Mutation Warrior so I can get debilitating strike as well like previously mentioned
Lvl 17 of fighter gives you Weapon Training 4.
Weapon training options are invaluable for a fighter at the moment.
DEX to damage offers no benefit to a fighter.
Well not true. He wants to play a TWF and that means dex to damage actually synergizes better than str. Dex also increases his AC and improves his reflex save.
So if we were talking about another build you might have a point but with TWF it's actually better to have high dex than high str.
As for mutations you will be able to get 3, I suggest infuse mutagen (at lvl 7th) and then greater and grand mutagen. Note that since your fighter levels count as alchemist levels for these mutations' prerequistes and you get them at the 11th level and 15th level you shouldn't be able to access grand mutagen (it requires 16 levels of alchemist while greater mutagen requires 12). Try to work this out with your GM by asking to be allowed to postpone gaining the mutation until you reach the correct level of fighter (you don't get a mutation at 11th lvl and you get it at 12th). If not allowed then go for spontaneous healing (at 11th) and then greater mutagen (at 15th). Wings would be very good but since you can now get flight via item mastery I wouldn't waste a mustation on them.
You be much better off not going Mobile Fighter so you keep Weapon Training so that you can used Gloves of Dueling and pickup Advanced Weapon Training for:
Trained Grace (Ex) When the fighter uses Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack with a weapon, using his Dexterity modifier on attack rolls and his Strength modifier on damage rolls, he doubles his weapon training bonus on damage rolls. The fighter must have Weapon Finesse in order to choose this option.
Doubling your weapon training bonus on damage rolls is going to give you so much more damage than trying to work in dex to damage. Especially since the only way to TWF and get dex to damage is Rogue levels or Agile weapon enchantment. Sure you have rogue levels, but honestly the amount you've taken isn't really worth it.
You only have 2d8 sneak attack damage, and then you're build focuses a lot on trying to get Sneak Attack to happen.
With Weapon Training, Gloves of Dueling, and Trained Grace. By level you will have +3 to attack and damage from Weapon Training. The gloves increase it to +5 attack and damage. And Trained Grace makes that a +10 to damage instead.
Forget some of those feats you're spending to get Sneak Attack and instead pick up Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization and you get another +4 to damage. And you don't need to do any setup to get that bonus damage (unlike Sneak Attack, which you're only averaging 9 damage when you successfully Sneak Attack).
Also, even if you leave you Strength at 10 to begin with you can use items to eventually increase it up to 16, which would give you a +3 strength modifier. Which you also get to add to your damage.
Well not true. He wants to play a TWF and that means dex to damage actually synergizes better than str. Dex also increases his AC and improves his reflex save.
So if we were talking about another build you might have a point but with TWF it's actually better to have high dex than high str.
Very incorrect.
- Trained Grace means more damage than going DEX-to-damage.
- Fighter's kit synergizes well with high DEX and STR due to heavy armor proficiencies + armor training.
- DEX does no increase AC. You need to have around 40 DEX to get more AC than a heavy armor Fighter.
- DEX doesn't improve Reflex. STR builds want some DEX too, and combined with Fighter's Reflexes, you get super high REF saves. Forking out for the Ring of Evasion is not a big expense either.
DEAR OP: If you want to build an 8th level Circling Mongoose + Canny Tumble kukri wielding character, just go straight Rogue.
You'll get:
1. Many more sneak attack dice.
2. More Rogue Talents to make sneak attacks even more important, notably Double Debilitation at 10th level.
3. A ton more skill ranks to play with, plus Acrobatics skill unlocks.
Besides, it's super simple to fulfill the featline and get proficiency by taking the Swashbuckler archetype. You usually also take the Scout archetype because the Skirmisher feature + Spring Attack ensures that you'll always get a sneak attack opener.
Here's a build for a Human Rogue (Swashbuckler/Scout)
1. TWF, Dodge, PROF: Kukri
2. RT: Weapon Training
3. Mobility
4. RT: Combat Trick (Twist away)
5. Canny Tumble
6. RT: To taste
7. Spring Attack, FCB RT: To taste
8. RT: Combat Trick II (Circling Mongoose)
Very incorrect.- Trained Grace means more damage than going DEX-to-damage.
- Fighter's kit synergizes well with high DEX and STR due to heavy armor proficiencies + armor training.
- DEX does no increase AC. You need to have around 40 DEX to get more AC than a heavy armor Fighter.
- DEX doesn't improve Reflex. STR builds want some DEX too, and combined with Fighter's Reflexes, you get super high REF saves. Forking out for the Ring of Evasion is not a big expense either.
Again remember he wants to build a TWF:
-Trained grace means +4 dmg at lvl 17 or +6 if using gloves of dueling AND forces you to build a MADer fighter because it requires you to use str for dmg. Dex to damage allows you to focus on 1 stat (leaving str at 10) and by level 20 (depending on game and GM of course) you should have something like 34 dex, which translates to +12 dmg to all of your attacks (+16 with grand mutagen active).
Besides by maxing dex you can afford all of the TWF feats which means more attacks. A str based TWF has an harder time doing this.
-Sure but a fighter also needs con and wis (and int is never a dump stat either). By being able to leave str at 10 you get more points for those precious abilities. Armor training is actually not that good. Now that AMH is out even most vanilla fighters will choose Advanced Armor Training feats instead of keeping normal Armor Training. Also keep in mind I suggested building a mutation warrior which trades away Armor Training entirely for sweet mutations...
-Dex Increases AC enough(and touch AC which is actually pretty vital at high levels). At lvl 20 a dex based fighter should have something like 34 dex which means a respecable +12 to AC (touch AC included) add bracers of armor +8 and you have +20 AC. A +5 full plate mirthal armor gives you +17 AC including a +3 bonus for dex, you go to +21 AC only if you progress with armor training AND spend resources (which are limited) to increase str AND dex (in this case you's need need a dex of 24 BESIDES rising str and this nets you a meager +1 to AC, but you are actually inferior as long as touch AC is concerned). If you go Mutation Warrior you also get a +8 to dex so you might have 42 dex, which translates to +16 AC, add bracers and you are at +24 AC. So, are you sure dex does not improve AC?
-Considering how reflexes are built on Dex, that stat does indeed increase reflexes. Your argument about fighter reflexes is void: it's a +4 to reflexes (+6 with gloves) , the dex built fighter (34 dex) gets a +12 to reflexes base, +16 with mutagens kicking in. AND NOTHING PREVENTS the dex based fighter from getting Warrior reflexes and gloves of duelling too, which means he'll always be better at reflexes if he wants to be.
-Trained grace means +4 dmg at lvl 17 or +6 if using gloves of dueling AND forces you to build a MADer fighter because it requires you to use str for dmg. Dex to damage allows you to focus on 1 stat (leaving str at 10) and by level 20 (depending on game and GM of course) you should have something like 34 dex, which translates to +12 dmg to all of your attacks (+16 with grand mutagen active).
Besides by maxing dex you can afford all of the TWF feats which means more attacks. A str based TWF has an harder time doing this.
MAD is not a bad word. MAD is fine for 20 pt. buy and higher.
-Sure but a fighter also needs con and wis (and int is never a dump stat either). By being able to leave str at 10 you get more points for those precious abilities. Armor training is actually not that good. Now that AMH is out even most vanilla fighters will choose Advanced Armor Training feats instead of keeping normal Armor Training. Also keep in mind I suggested building a mutation warrior which trades away Armor Training entirely for sweet mutations...
I'd rather just pick the feats for the AAT. Why leave Armor Training increments out if I have TWF DEX?
-Dex Increases AC enough(and touch AC which is actually pretty vital at high levels). At lvl 20 a dex based fighter should have something like 34 dex which means a respecable +12 to AC (touch AC included) add bracers of armor +8 and you have +20 AC. A +5 full plate mirthal armor gives you +17 AC including a +3 bonus for dex, you go to +21 AC only if you progress with armor training AND spend resources (which are limited) to increase str AND dex (in this case you's need need a dex of 24 BESIDES rising str and this nets you a meager +1 to AC, but you are actually inferior as long as touch AC is concerned). If you go Mutation Warrior you also get a +8 to dex so you might have 42 dex, which translates to +16 AC, add bracers and you are at +24 AC. So, are you sure dex does not improve AC?
You keep bringing up Mutation Warrior and UnRogue and at the same time talking about Fighters needing WIS and CON, and what you are doing is basically dumping your WIS with Mutagen/Greater Mutagen and your Fort saves/HP with three levels of Rogue.
Your calculations are terribly off as well (and who uses mithral armor when you can stack Armored Juggernaut with adamantine?) but I don't think you are going to understand my points unless you pull out a build.
So, here it is, I challenge you to a build off.
Level 12, 20PB, 2 traits, average+1 HP after level 1, average WBL.
See ya here.
Nope, lvl 20 (the rest is fine).
I'll build a Human, Un Rogue (swashbuckler) 3, Fighter (Mutation Warrior) 17.
Race Human
STATS AT CREATION S15 D16+2 C14 I10 W12 CH7
Traits: Defender of the Society, Indomitable Faith
1. Iron Will, Weapon Finesse, Toughness
2. TWF
3. AAT: Armored Juggernaut
4. Weapon Focus (kukri)
Pip: +1 STR
5. AWT: Armed Bravery
WT I: Light Blades
6. Improved TWF
7. Improved Initiative
8. AWT: Armor Specialization (O-yoroi)
Pip: +1 DEX
9. Improved Critical
WT II: Trained Grace
10. AWT: Focused Weapon
11. Greater Weapon Focus
12. Lightning Reflexes (just as filler)
Pip: +1 DEX
Gear: Sash of the War Champion, Gloves of Dueling, a pair of +2 kukri, +3 adamantine O-yoroi, +1 amulet of nat armor, +1 ring of prot, +3 cloak of resistance, Boots of Speed, Belt of Physical Perfection +2
STATS
HP 124
AC 33 (17 touch, 27 flat)
DR DR 6/-
Saves Fort +14, Ref +15, Will +15
Initiative +10
Attacks
No haste TWF: +24/+24/+19/+19/+14 for 1d10+14 MH, 1d10+12 OH (15-20/2x crit)
AVERAGE VS 29 AC OPPONENT: 83.85DPR
Hasted TWF: +25/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15 for 1d10+14 MH, 1d10+12 OH (15-20/2x crit)
AVERAGE VS 29 AC OPPONENT: 110.96DPR
Would I give up all the AC and DR Armor Training provides for Mutagens? Maybe, perhaps, dunno. But this way you get a dexterous, powerful and defensive TWF Fighter that will outshine any Rogue/Fighter abomination.
Nope, lvl 20 (the rest is fine).
I'll build a Human, Un Rogue (swashbuckler) 3, Fighter (Mutation Warrior) 17.
Already went with level 12. Level 20 is a pain to calculate for me and it's useless to consider since very few campaigns actually last that long.
Not to mention OP is starting at level 8.
Holy hell, my second advice thread and we have a BUILD OFF!
Why did I never come to this site sooner?
I do like your fighter build Secret Wizard, and it's well thought out!
With my build, and 20 point buy at level 12
STR 12, DEX 20, CON 12, INT 13, WIS 10, CHA 7
Traits: Dirty Fighter, Ice Walker
1) Unchained Rogue BAB 0 Fort 0 Ref 2 Will 0
- Knife Master Archetype
- Finesse Training: Weapon Finesse
- Sneak Attack +1d8 (Kukris)
- 1st level Feat: Dodge
- 1st level Human Bonus Feat: Mobility
2) Unchained Rogue BAB 1 Fort 0 Ref 3 Will 0
- Knife Master Archetype
- Evasion
- Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Two-Weapon Fighting
3) Unchained Rogue BAB 2 Fort 1 Ref 3 Will 1
- Knife Master Archetype
- DEXTERITY TO DAMAGE FOR SELECT WEAPON (KUKRI)
- Blade Sense: +1 Dodge Bonus to AC vs attacks made with Light Blades
- Sneak Attack +1d8
- 3rd level Feat: Combat Expertise
4) Mobile Fighter BAB 3 Fort 3 Ref 3 Will 1
- DEX +1
- Fighter Bonus Feat: Acrobatic
- +1 DEX
5) Mobile Fighter BAB 4 Fort 4 Ref 3 Will 1
- Agility: +1
- Fighter Bonus Feat:Slayer's Feint
- 5th level Feat: Spring Attack
6) Mobile Fighter BAB 5 Fort 4 Ref 4 Will 2
- Armor Training 1
7) Mobile Fighter BAB 6/1 Fort 5 Ref 4 Will 2
[list] - Fighter Bonus Feat:Canny Tumble
- 7th level Feat: Circling Mongoose
8) Mobile Fighter BAB 7/2 Fort 5 Ref 4 Will 3
- DEX +1
- Leaping Attack: +1 to atk/dmg if you move 5ft before the attack (pairs VERY well with Circling Mongoose)
9) Mobile Fighter BAB 8/3 Fort 6 Ref 5 Will 4
[list] - Agility: +2
- Fighter Bonus Feat:Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
- 9th level Feat: Iron Will
10) Mobile Fighter BAB 9/4 Fort 6 Ref 5 Will 3
- Armor Training 2
11) Mobile Fighter BAB 10/5 Fort 7 Ref 5 Will 3
[list] - Fighter Bonus Feat:Wind Stance
- 11th level Feat: Improved Critical (Kukri)
12) Mobile Fighter BAB 11/6/1 Fort 7 Ref 6 Will 4
- DEX +1
- Leaping Attack +2
So at 12
HP: (Do we do Averages or assume Max?)
- Average: 3d8 + 9d10 +12(1 CON) +9(Favored Class Fighter HP) = 72 HP
- Max: 24+90+12+9 = 135 HP
AC: +6(bracers) +8(DEX) +1(Dodge)
Items: Starting gold of 108,000g
- (2x) Serrated + Laminated Steel Kukris of Speed
[list] - Serrated = +1 crit multiplier on the base weapon stacks w/ improved critical
- Laminated Steel = +1 damage and +1 Critical Multiplier
- Cloak of Resistance +3
- Bracers of Armor +6
- Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4
- Daredevil Softpaws
Saves
- Fortitude: 7+1+3
- Reflex: 6+8+3
- Will: 4+0+3+2
To Hit:
- Base 11/6/1
- W/ DEX 19p/14p/9p
- W/ TWF 17p/17o/12p/12o/7p
- W/ TWF + Speed 17p/17o/17p/17o/12p/12o/7p
- W/ Daredevil Softpaws 19p/19o/19p/19o/14p/14o/9p
- W/ Circling Mongoose + Canny Tumble: 23p/23o/23p/23o/18p/18o/13p and target is denied their Dexterity, +2 to damage on each hit (flanking is already added in and +2 from Leaping Attack)
Damage:
- Base Weapon Damage 1d4+1+8(DEX) (13-20/x3)
- W/ Circling Mongoose (assuming acrobatics success): 1d4+1+1(Dirty Fighter)+2(Leaping Attack)+8(DEX) +2d8 Sneak Attack (13-20/x3) +20% Concealment vs ranged attacks
Thanks for being a sport, Motteke!
Yeah, I was using PFS averages - that is, rounded up. My HP was basically 14 base, +2 belt, +Toughness for 4 HP per level, plus 6 per Fighter level and max 10 at first level, so 10 + 48 + 66 = 124.
Anyway, while there's some item changes I'd do your build, I think you'll tell by yourself that eventually, this build is better off as full Rogue or full Fighter (for Fighter, preferably with the Dawnflower Dervish archetype to keep Weapon Training).
Full Rogue build probably has more accuracy (Debilitating Injury!), more survivability (higher Ref + Twist Away feat, not to mention resiliency shenanigans), more sneak attack (god knows I love me a pair of Sneaky weapons to get Debilitating Injury going), and full Rogue has extra skill points to invest on WIS so you can, instead of spending so many feats on Slayer's Feint, just pick up the Cunning Liar trait and base your Bluff on WIS.
Thanks for being a sport, Motteke!
No problem~!
I admit I like your builds, and it will work EVEN better with our campaign because we roll 4d6, reroll 1s and keep the highest 3. We make 4 sets of 6 stats like this and this tends to give us higher than average stats. However we've also had a poor bastard roll nothing higher than 10 on EVERY STAT on EVERY SET. We were laughing so hard that night.
I think the biggest factor for the reason of 3 Rogue levels is just for the extra Sneak Attack, DEX to hit and DEX to dmg all in 3 levels.
I love all the other Fighter Archetypes, but I absolutely am in love with the 11th level bonus for Mobile Fighter w/ the combination of a move action and Full-Attack action.
With the current advice here I'm thinking of making multiple builds, mutagen fighter, full rogue, base fighter, what are your thoughts on the TWF fighter?
If you are in love with that feature, take the build I posted and make these changes -
ARCHETYPE: Rather than going base Fighter, take this archetype: Dawnflower Dervish. It trades out Armor Training for movement abilities, INCLUDING Rapid Attack. You get to keep Weapon Training for Advanced Weapon Training goodness.
For revised feats:
1. Iron Will, Weapon Finesse, Toughness
2. TWF
3. Shield Focus
4. Unhindering Shield
Pip: +1 STR
5. AWT: Armed Bravery
WT I: Light Blades
6. Improved TWF
7. Weapon Focus (Kukri)
8. Improved Initiative
Pip: +1 DEX
9. Improved Critical
WT II: Trained Grace
10. AWT: Focused Weapon
11. Greater Weapon Focus
12. Lightning Reflexes (just as filler)
Pip: +1 DEX
I switched some feats around, but the main thing you get with this build is the ability to use a buckler in one of your kukri hands for extra AC.
For armor, I'd likely stick to mithral Kikko armor to retain full speed.
If you are in love with that feature, take the build I posted and make these changes -
ARCHETYPE: Rather than going base Fighter, take this archetype: Dawnflower Dervish.
I've never seen the Archives of Nethys before!
How do you feel about the Step Up and Following Step feats?
I'll start working on getting these builds fully built out and calculated, might even just make each of the builds, pick the one that synergizes with my playstyle the best and then have the rest be a random encounter to present a challenge to the party.
Could you imagine fighting all of these build variations of T-W-F brigands of death?
Hahaha, my players don't need to. I was a huge fan of the Dawnflower Dervish archetype when it came out and set several of those against the party, armed as scimitar and shield dune warriors that waited below the sand.
ALLLLLSOOOO, it comes a bit later, but you should also check the Vigilante. Mad Rush + Lethal Grace make a pretty good impression of the Mobile Fighter. I like tossing in Shield of Blades in there too.
I made an Unchained Rogue Knife Master Scout with 5 levels of Stalker Vigilante for the startling appearance and at 4th Up-Close and Personal. It was also an acrobatic based build getting as many attacks as it could.... I think I have a preference towards roguelike acrobatic characters.
Thanks for all the help by the way, I'm still interested in the build Rogar was going to present :D
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Ok, it took me a while. Anyway, here you go:
A few notes:
Offense: Math should be all right but check it out please. Keep in mind I DIDN'T add the mutagen bonus (+8 dex which translates into +4 to hit and to damage), sneak attack, haste from boots of speed, piranha strike, hammer the gap and of course the critical bonuses granted by the bursts and thundering abilities. All of those factors are not "always on" so I didn't want to factor them. It's safe to say if this guy is allowed to full attack stuff will die though. Ah yes, an initiative of +24 means he'll be usually able to act quickly. Like most of the time unless you roll 1.
Defense: The guy has 257 hp, and AC of 48 (and if you have grand mutagen in play you gain +8 dex/+6con/+4str and +6 Natural Armor Bonus, but you take -2 to all your mental stats... a more than fair trade off imo, especially because a -1 to will isn't going to be a tragedy with those saves). All the saving throws are very good for a fighter. He's also very mobile. Between acrobatics and mobility (another +4 to AC against attacks of opportunity...) you are going to get into position without much risk most of the time.
Notes:
-I know I didn't optimize as much as possible. I choose the swashbuckler archetype because I wanted to give Stabby his trusty kukris from the very beginning. A knife master is more competitive but I like the swashbuckler more. It's not a huge difference anyway (you'll be using 2 dices of sneak attack 2d6 or 2d8 doesn't change much).
-As mentioned before there's a problem with Mutagen discovery. I listed what you can do by RAW. By RAW you can't get grand mutagen but "only" greater mutagen unless your GM allows you to wait a level before getting the discoveries. Most GMs I know (me included) would allow this but if not, well your mutagen gives you "only" +6 dex/+4con and +4Nat Armor, -2Wis/-2Cha. Instead you can get +40hp of healing or 17 extra minutes of flight. Not bad anyway.
-Warrior's Spirit was very tempting but I wasn't sure how it staked with magical abilities, so I opted for more defense.
Ok, it took me a while. Anyway, here you go:
Looks like a lot of fun!
Another boon this site has given me, I had no idea about this Myth-Weavers editable character sheet! The wonders of technology xD
Two things, I may take out Iron Will for Spring Attack and Hammer the Gap for Circling Mongoose, just because that would be awesome. Improved initiative ---> Canny Tumble maybe, but I like having a huge initiative modifier.
Thank you guys both so much for the builds, it's given me a LOT to think about and to work with :)
As for who won, I'd say Jack wins but that's because if the two fought Jack has 8 levels on him xD
I will have to put Secret Wizard's build through the math machine known as my brain when I build that one, but other than that I like both of them very much.
For Jack McStabby do you think taking one more level of rogue would allow for the Grand Mutagen (is it just the pre-req of total character level that's missing? I don't get why I need to hold a level to get it since I'm not too familiar with it)
Ok, it took me a while. Anyway, here you go:
Looks like a lot of fun!
Another boon this site has given me, I had no idea about this Myth-Weavers editable character sheet! The wonders of technology xD
Two things, I may take out Iron Will for Spring Attack and Hammer the Gap for Circling Mongoose, just because that would be awesome. Improved initiative ---> Canny Tumble maybe, but I like having a huge initiative modifier.
Thank you guys both so much for the builds, it's given me a LOT to think about and to work with :)
As for who won, I'd say Jack wins but that's because if the two fought Jack has 8 levels on him xD
I will have to put Secret Wizard's build through the math machine known as my brain when I build that one, but other than that I like both of them very much.
For Jack McStabby do you think taking one more level of rogue would allow for the Grand Mutagen (is it just the pre-req of total character level that's missing? I don't get why I need to hold a level to get it since I'm not too familiar with it)
Glad you like it :)
As for your notes: circling mongoose is certainly awesome with this build but don't sell hammer the gap short: with 7/8 attacks per turn and easy criticals it means a lot of damage.
Unfortunately Mutation Warrior allows you to use your FIGHTER levels as alchemist levels, and greater and grand mutagen are limited by the level an alchemist should be in order to get them (lvl 12 and 16 respectively so you need to have a fighter level of at least 12 to get greater mutagen and a figther level of at least 16 for grand mutagen).