How do you operate your melee casters?


Advice


For the moment discount the existence of warpriests and magus.

I still see lots of people talking about a melee cleric, druid, and/or eldritch knight. I've been trying them and been less than thrilled with the results. So I'm trying to figure out what is different for me than others. I'm wondering if it is the GM or supporting group.

If I don't buff, I fight substantially worse than a standard martial character.

We are wandering through town and get ambushed. If I take 2 or 3 rounds to cast buff spells, either the fight is over or we are losing (since I'm not contributing) by the time I am ready.

We are proceeding through the dungeon and can here voices ahead. I cast divine favor. The voices stop abruptly as they hear me. Roll initiative.

Strong hold door ahead. We think the captain may be behind the door. I start casting buff spells. Either the guys on the other side of the door, the roving patrols, or the guard outposts hear me (someone is going to make a high perception roll). Roll initiative.

The only and I mean only times I've seen the buffed caster work like everyone says is:
1) If it is a surprise frontal assault and I can fully buff all my spells and just charge through from one fight to the next. Yes, that was amazingly effective. But this is a rare situation.
2) I buy a rod of still spell, so I can cast 3 buff spells for 1 fight without starting things before I'm ready. No one talks about this, so I can't imagine everyone martial caster is running around with several rods of silent spell.

Yes, there are some long term buffs. But they are not the really good ones (won't even make you as good as the base fighter) and they are not the ones everyone says they use for their casters.

So I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong or what is different in my situation.
Does your GM not have the opponents make perception checks when you start buffing?
Can you usually tell where and when the fight is going to be so you can buff from a safe position?
Do you sit a long ways away while a sneaky scout maps the site?


Quote:
If I don't buff, I fight substantially worse than a standard martial character.

That's pretty much how it goes. They probably just don't fit your desired (or group's) play style.

Battle cleric, I've never played before so I don't much about.

I've played a melee druid before and I didn't have too many problems. The only buff I really needed was Barksin or my Wand of Mage Armor.

Eldritch Knight I can say more about. Comparing an Eldritch Knight to a martial like Magus (or any other martial for that matter) is like comparing apples to oranges. Magus, for example, is the perfect blend of magic and melee; of course its going to be good at both. Eldritch Knight on the other hand requires you to choose a specialization. This is what I ask myself when making an EK:

Am I a martial who can cast some spells or am I a caster who can sometimes be a martial?

I've seen people liken the latter to Gandalf. He is a wizard first and foremost, but he won't have too much trouble killin orcs the ol' fashioned way if need be.

If you want to be better at unbuffed melee, you're going to have to sacrifice some of your spell caster levels for melee class levels (probably).

Quote:
So I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong or what is different in my situation.

I'd buy a rod of Silent Spell or just walk away and come back to the area where the enemies are. If they're not aware of you, just walk away and cast your "X minute" duration buffs. The DC to hear you gets higher with distance. Then, cast your "X round" buff(s) either using the rod or without it to initiate combat.

Quote:
Does your GM not have the opponents make perception checks when you start buffing?

No, we always roll for that if relevant. We just walk away or don't bother buffing.

Quote:
Can you usually tell where and when the fight is going to be so you can buff from a safe position?

No, not always. Maybe if we have a divination focused character we might always know. We heavily used Arcane Eye when my group had an occultist.

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Do you sit a long ways away while a sneaky scout maps the site?

If we have a rogue or other stealthy character we usually have them scout ahead a little bit if possible.


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Gruingar de'Morcaine wrote:
Does your GM not have the opponents make perception checks when you start buffing?

Our opponents had perception checks, but we discovered a simple solution. After noticing the enemy ahead, we retreat to a previous room out of earshot of the new enemies. We cast the buff spells there (avoiding spells that last only 1 round per level) and then advance to the new room.

But the parties that did that did not rely on melee casters. I view a melee caster as someone who casts battle spells during battle. My family has successfully played melee casters.

My elder daughter, a master of optimization, created an elf battle oracle named Anastasia. The party also had two rogues. The rogues would rush forward at high initiative to make attacks against flatfooted opponents while Anastasia cast her first buff spell on herself. The rogues could hold the front line for another round while Anastasia cast her second buff spell and advanced. Then Anastasia would kill one or two opponents per round. She did not like the slowdown of the second buff spell, so she acquired a Lesser Rod of Quicken.

Once when the party ambushed a war party of giants, Anastasia had minutes of warning. She cast 9 buff spells on herself and could have taken out those giants alone. But my daughter said that most of the time, two self-buff spells are enough.

My wife, designer of crazy characters, created a halfing sorceress with aberrant bloodline. She wore a chain shirt despite the chance of arcane spell failure and attacked with touch spells. Later she gained the feats to avoid the arcane spell failure. She was much like a magus without a sword. Buff spells were defenses, like shield and spider climb (she had a 10-foot reach from her bloodline, so sticking to the wall out of reach was a good defense). And spider climb lasts 10 minutes per level, so it usually lasted through several encounters.

I have also seem bards and maguses in combat. Bard is designed to buff with bardic performance and magus is designed to cast in combat, so they have their own particular melee caster styles. Low-level bloodragers tend to fight like barbarians with spellcasting being incidental. I haven't seen a high-level bloodrager in action yet.


I'm currently playing a Speaker for the Past Shaman with the Battle spirit, using a reach weapon. I feel like I have far more abilities than I can ever use in a given day, but the flexibility is great.

In terms of buffs, I tend to favourite mostly longer term stuff like Barkskin, False Life, Defending Bone (picked up using FCB), Heroism, and Resist Energy ( and sometimes Magic Circle vs Evil). You'll notice they're primarily defensive, though.

But with that base, I then either cast another buff to start off the fight (and he gets Temporal Celerity as a revelation, which tends to give good initiative and always acting in the surprise round), or get right to it. I almost never cast more than one, and tend to prioritize Divine Favor (again, via FCB) or Enlarge Person depending on the battlefield circumstances.

So far it has proven very effective overall. Can't match the dedicated martials in every fight (nor should I be able to), but I'm effective (and especially so now at 8th level, with the ability to swift action Bane for 1 min, several times per day), and can do so many other things with my spells, hexes and revelations.

Overall, I think the idea behind a Battle capable caster is not to consistently match or exceed the martial characters, but to do so very occasionally, while also having significant extra flexibility, including utility spells, healing/status condition removal, etc etc


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OP: your post seems to indicate only two choices: 1) No time to cast any buffs, or 2) Cast ALL your buffs. Reality of the game is usually neither of those things are going to happen.

Even in an ambush situation, you'll likely be able to cast a single buff with your standard action on round 1, then fight.

If you have time to buff before entering a room, you still shouldn't cast every buff you have, to conserve resources.

Generally, you want to focus on long term buffs like Barkskin or Magic Vestment/Greater Magic Weapon. Then, when combat is going to start, pick your best short-term buff spell and cast that.

It also helps if your class had some swift action buffs, like the Inquisitor or Warpriest. I pretty much only play melee casters, and I've never had a problem with being effective in combat.


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Another tactic you can use to improve yourself is using a reach weapon. That way, you can cast a buff spell on your first round, move to get in your opponent's grill, and use attacks of opportunity as your chance to get first-round damage in on them. From there, you can either cast a buff or two more on your next couple of rounds, again relying on attacks of opportunity for damage opportunities, or start opening up on something that's within your extended reach. This works especially well if you have someone willing to work alongside you to help make them provoke (combat maneuver specialists, etc.) or if you place yourself near someone that looks like a spellcaster, as that way you're either getting them when they fail to cast defensively or forcing them to forego casting or move away to do it.

Having Combat Reflexes and a decent Dexterity helps with this (more attacks of opportunity are good when they're one of your major attacking venues), and a reach weapon with the fortuitous quality gives you a mini-iterative attack on your attacks of opportunity. But those (and Power Attack for more damage, obviously) are all you really need to make the plan shine - feat-wise it can get going at first level if you play human, or third if you don't. Enlarge person is an uncommonly good spell for this, as it gives you an even bigger threatened area to work with. (Google "reach cleric" for more in-depth advice.)

Class features (domains, revelations, etc.) that boost damage are also a big boon for this, since you may not have the stats to spare to crank Strength through the roof like a dedicated martial can. This is especially nice if you happen to have a bard/skald in the party, since their songs boost static damage (although be wary that a skald's song prevents you from spellcasting, so you may want to wait to accept it until after you're ready to go).

You probably won't ever outpace a pure martial for damage - but they're putting all their character's resources into it, where you still have full spellcasting to contribute. And many of your buffs will help your party members as well as you, which means all the extra damage they get is credited to your account. ;) Being able to be competent in melee while still helping out the party is a heck of a thing - I hope this helps you do it better!

EDIT: Here's what I'm talking about, put much better than I ever could. :) It's written specifically for clerics, but the principles apply to other classes, too.


I think if you are going to be a battle cleric, you really need to have divine favor, a lot of them.

Also, use a reach weapon. That way, you can get attacks in AND get your buffs up, great! I played that way through mummy's mask and I was probably the most powerful character. Very strong in battle, with tools to solve almost any problem you come against.


Rennaivx wrote:

...

You probably won't ever outpace a pure martial for damage ...

This might be where I'm getting hung up. Everyone always talks about their melee battle cleric, oracle, druid outperforming all the pure martial classes at their own specialty. If that isn't really true, then maybe I'm not doing so bad after all.


Gruingar de'Morcaine wrote:
Rennaivx wrote:

...

You probably won't ever outpace a pure martial for damage ...
This might be where I'm getting hung up. Everyone always talks about their melee battle cleric, oracle, druid outperforming all the pure martial classes at their own specialty. If that isn't really true, then maybe I'm not doing so bad after all.

With enough warning and justification to throw every single buff they've got at the situation, maybe - in fact, probably. But most fights simply don't need it; good enough is fine, and you conserve your resources for when you truly need them.


In my group, we always have well optimized martials. I really can't see a Battle Cleric/Oracle reach the same height.


I have a player in my game who is the definition of Pathfinder's cleric zilla.

He's full cleric with VMC cavalier (order of the stars) who focuses on using Blessed Hammer to deliver big hits like a magus, but also has good melee capability on his own without them. He has the defense and tactics domains, and he casts all the spells. Typically the opportunity to do so comes from smart party tactics. Quicken is essential. It's a homebrew campaign and my version of Torag/Moradin/[dwarf god with warhammer] is LN, so he's able to take Versatile Channeler and has Channel Smite for added dice of damage.

Combining channel smite, delivering a big hit touch spell like harm, and challenge makes his damage unreal.


The idea of a cleric outpacing a martial for damage makes me smile :)

Our paladin roundhoused a demon for 350 with a fullround attack, while I can do 54 at most. The fighter is less spectacular, but he doesn't need smite evil to dish it out against every foe.
And as you say, without buffing I cannot even come close. It starts with me having no strength, while it is the prime stat of the martials. Then there is their better BAB progression and that almost all of them receive bonus feats. They are able to afford a feat family, which we cannot duplicate (lets leave out the battle oracle, who has revelations for that). We have only medium armor and simple weapons - seems not much, but especially the latter does make a difference.

Even pulling even is impossible the higher the level, with buffs or without. It is far more efficient for me to stay out of melee while I can and use my spells, of which I have a lot at that point. If I can get the melees to hit better and/or more often, it will do more damage than I can do.

That is as it should be imo. Melee damage is the speciality of the martials, so they should be good at it. I *can* move within melee range without fear of dying, if I have to play roadbump or assist a tank, though. It is sometimes fun to do, if the fight isn't a serious one. If it is a tough one, I prefer to draw my spells rather than my mace. That is what being a full caster is about...and the martials rely on us to give them whatever magical aid is needed.


I have a melee druid, she uses extended Barkskin to keep it up all the time and greater magic fang. She usually stays in huge air elemental form with the Eagle domain so she has imp. evasion. She aslo has vital strike, grasping strike and imp. vital strike.

She will sometimes cast a spell at the start of combat while everyone gets set up then swoop in and around the enemy to setup flank for the rogue and vital strike for 6d6+static damage (10 for her + 1d6 fire damage from her amulet of mighty fist).

She doesn't do the most damage, but is usually on par with the Paladin (when she doesn't smite) but she is a huge factor for setting up flanks and sneak attacks. And on top of that she can pump out some great spells when need be.


Battle cleric/oracle
Work towards quicken magic linage, quicken spell, divine favor. Through in wayang spell hunter fate's favored for some real optimization.

Once you have this you clean up!

Druids can pic a favorite form but armor and if it is an elemental get a weapon for it and go to town.

You do have to build for this 18 in your combat stat at level 1 pick the right spells. Get the right items. I like boots of haste, then quicken Divine Favor, finally righteous might. Now you are the power house.


forget battle cleric and go warpriest, level 2 cast your warpriest spells as swift actions a number of times equal to your wisdom modifier + half your warpriest level.


Mathmuse wrote:

{. . .}

But the parties that did that did not rely on melee casters. I view a melee caster as someone who casts battle spells during battle. My family has successfully played melee casters.
{. . .}

Awesome family -- where do I sign up?

* * * * * * * *

Reach Eldritch Knight using VMC Magus, with Lore Warden Fighter as the martial dip to get extra feats; you will have to use a different Magus Arcana than the Maneuver Mastery specified in there, because I found out after making this build that VMC Magus actually doesn't give you effective Magus levels for determining the effect of Magus Arcana, just for qualifying for them.

My idea of how to use a Bloodrager dip (and Mad Magic) and the Arcane Exploit Bloodline Development with VMC Magusto make Blade Adept Arcanist actually viable. (Also see the posts below the linked one for more thoughts.) This is a Gish that is neither an Eldritch Knight nor a Magus nor a Warpriest nor a pre-Errata Scarred Witch Doctor. It progresses the Bloodrager Bloodline (instead of a Sorcerer Bloodline) with Bloodline Development and eventually gets the Knowledge is Power Magus Arcana (normally unusable for non-Magi even when they use VMC Magus to pick up Magus Arcana, but Blade Adept Arcanist gives effective Magus levels to make it work, even though Blade Adept Arcanist can't take this Magus Arcana by itself). It solves the VMC Magus problem noted above.

Reach Eldritch Knight based upon Transmuter Wizard -- uses the Transmuter's Arcane School Abilities for both permanent and temporary buffing, and save most of your spells for other stuff. (Also see the posts below the linked one for more thoughts.)

I used to have an Orc Scarred Witch Doctor Reach Witch concept, but the Scarred Witch Doctor Errata of a few months ago killed that, even as it made otherwise conventional Half-Orc Scarred Witch Doctors super-powered (did the developers forget that Half-Orc can put that +2 anywhere?).

In all cases, the idea is to do battlefield control while making attacks of opportunity (alternatively could buff while doing this, but normally better to do battlefield control, unless you can trick enemies into positioning themselves worse by delaying the battlefield control), and only sometimes actually doing a normal attack. Also in all cases, your damage on the attacks of opportunity is not going to be exceptional, so instead use them for combat maneuvers (Trip is normally best, but Dirty Trick or Disarm could be best for certain enemies; you won't have the feats to specialize in more than one unless you really go Epic).


Outdamaging martials is a bit of wasted effort. That said, I think a well-made battle druid could. Personally I prefer caster druids, but if you play your cards right you can, by level 7, be controlling 2 large tigers with customizable feats. Said tigers have pounce giving them the chance to open a fight with 4 more attacks than most martials. Each. Add in abnormally high strength scores, power attack, AMoF's, and the fact that all of those attacks are at the highest attack bonus and it adds up. Now, if large size is cramping your style, deinonychus is the way to go. Slightly lower strength, but still 5 attack pounces and they have 5 attack full attacks as well (instead of rake). And if this is still behind what martials regularly do in your games remember, this is on top of 9 level spells.


My group is not the most optimized bunch in the world, but my Battle Oracle has done pretty well starting the fight with communal buffs - I cast Blessing of Fervor, Bless, Prayer, and meanwhile the frontliners are getting the fight started.
(I am really looking forward to Quicken Spell at level 11, admittedly.)


Gruingar de'Morcaine wrote:

I still see lots of people talking about a melee cleric, druid, and/or eldritch knight. I've been trying them and been less than thrilled with the results. So I'm trying to figure out what is different for me than others. I'm wondering if it is the GM or supporting group.

If I don't buff, I fight substantially worse than a standard martial character.

You are not a martial, but a caster. You don't have to be as good.

Gruingar de'Morcaine wrote:
We are wandering through town and get ambushed. If I take 2 or 3 rounds to cast buff spells, either the fight is over or we are losing (since I'm not contributing) by the time I am ready.

What I have seen is long term buffs cast out of combat [like at the beginning of the day], and only a single buff cast before going into combat.

Gruingar de'Morcaine wrote:
We are proceeding through the dungeon and can here voices ahead. I cast divine favor. The voices stop abruptly as they hear me. Roll initiative.

You hear them, they can hear you. Sounds normal.

Gruingar de'Morcaine wrote:
Strong hold door ahead. We think the captain may be behind the door. I start casting buff spells. Either the guys on the other side of the door, the roving patrols, or the guard outposts hear me (someone is going to make a high perception roll). Roll initiative.

A door in the way is a significant penalty to hearing. If someone on the other side always hear you, then it is GM being a jerk. If a roving patrol always appears just as you are about to enter, then it is your GM being a jerk.

Suggestion: Before casting, perception for roving patrols and such. If, you hear nothing, then cast away. If someone overhears you always, your GM is being a jerk.

Before judging him a jerk, be sure it always happens, and not just some of the time.

Gruingar de'Morcaine wrote:

So I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong or what is different in my situation.

Does your GM not have the opponents make perception checks when you start buffing?
Can you usually tell where and when the fight is going to be so you can buff from a safe position?
Do you sit a long ways away while a sneaky scout maps the site?

You can be contributing by keeping an opponent busy. You don't have to out DPS anyone. You are the backup to the front liners. You keep them from getting ganged up on. Your main spells are not combat, but party support. Buffs like Bless, Haste, Heroism, and so on help others do more damage. Buffs that increase your party's total DPS are better than buffs than protect your party because dead opponents do no damage, while living ones get more chances to hurt you.

/cevah

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