FCB Ruling Source

[Secret Wizard]

Hi, someone is asking me for the source of the ruling that says you cannot take an alternate FCB (such as a Human Rogue's +1/6 of a Rogue Talent) until you have that actual class feature.

I know I read it somewhere, I just cannot find where.

Any help?

Quote:

Finally, some of these alternate favored class benefits only add +1/2, +1/3, +1/4, or +1/6 to a roll (rather than +1) each time the benefit is selected; when applying this result to the die roll, round down (minimum 0). For example, a dwarf with rogue as his favored class adds +1/2 to his trap sense ability regarding stone traps each time he selects the alternate rogue favored class benefit; though this means the net effect is +0 after selecting it once (because +1/2 rounds down to +0), after 20 levels this benefit gives the dwarf a +10 bonus to his trap sense (in addition to the base value from being a 20th-level rogue).

I've also found this text in the PRD that seems to go against said ruling.

[Chess Pwn]

it's in occult adventures. pg 84

Quote:

If an alternate favored class option modifies a class

feature or ability, it can’t be taken before the character has
that class feature or ability. For example, if a class gains a
class feature at 6th level, a character couldn’t take a racial
favored class option that applies to that class feature until
6th level, even if the benefit from that option wouldn’t be
high enough to add a bonus until a later level

but it was also said beforehand.

[vhok]

gaining 1/6 of a rogue talent is not modifying "rogue talent".
that rule quote is referring to things like add 1/2 a point of damage each time you deal sneak attack damage, for example. things that actually modify how an ability works or what it does.
not the ones that give u 1/6th of a bonus feature or ability.

[Melkiador]

The finer point could use an FAQ. I actually hate that ruling altogether. They just had to shoehorn that in for some OP oracle FCBs, that have since been nerfed anyway.

[Nefreet]

I would say that the "general rule" is the one quoted above from Occult Adventures, and that "specific exceptions" would include examples such as the one quoted by the OP.

Before Occult Adventures it was stated in a Forum post by a member of PFS Leadership, who was passing the message along from the Rules Team.

[Rysky]

Yeah the "Gain" ones should be fine, it's the "Increases" once you have to wait on.

[ryric]

Yes, you can't improve a class feature you don't have, but you can take extra of a class feature you don't yet have (or may never have).

I don't see why the text you quoted is a contradiction.

[Melkiador]

Here's a weird corner case, from the Dwarf Arcanist FCB:
"Add 1/4 to the arcanist’s effective class level when determining the effects of the arcane barrier and arcane weapon arcanist exploits."

So, can you take that FCB if you only have one of those exploits?

[Secret Wizard]

ryric wrote:

Yes, you can't improve a class feature you don't have, but you can take extra of a class feature you don't yet have (or may never have).

I don't see why the text you quoted is a contradiction.

But that's the opposite of the quoted text says.

It says that the 20th level Dwarf Rogue took 20 FCBs to improve Trap Sense, which it could not have picked at level 1/2. He was improving a class feature that wasn't there.

[Talonhawke]

Gonna throw a FAQ hit up I agree the quoted rogue text makes it a bit more ambiguous.

Edit: From the APG page of the PRD.

Some of these alternate class rewards only add +1/2, +1/3, +1/4, or +1/6 on a roll (rather than +1) each time the reward is selected. When applying this type of result to a die roll, always round down (minimum 0). For example, a half-orc with gunslinger as her favored class adds a +1/4 bonus on attack rolls and a +1/2 bonus on damage rolls when using the pistol whip deed each time she selects that favored class bonus, though this means the net effect is +0 on each after selecting it once (because both +1/4 and +1/2 rounds down to 0). After 20 levels, this benefit gives the half-orc a +5 bonus on attack rolls and a +10 bonus on damage rolls when using the pistol whip deed (in addition to the base value from being a 20th-level gunslinger).

Pistol whip is not accessible till 3rd level.

[Melkiador]

It could stand a FAQ/Errata in the APG, but traditionally when two sources conflict like this, the newer source is considered to take precedence.

[Talonhawke]

I agree but consider a table where I sit down to play and don't have and haven't read occult adventures it could be confusing.

[vhok]

FCB has had some big revisions done to it. changing 1/2 bonsues into 1/6th and changing how stuff works. If I were you I would ignore any examples from the CRB they are outdated. the current way it works is as I stated before. you can't take something that would alter an ability you don't have but gaining a bonus ability if fine.