|
Hi there all!
This is my first post on the Paizo forums. I have a game this coming Sunday and I need some advice on building an Occultist for PFS. The character is a story-telling historian, so I've given him the Talented and Artifact Hunter Traits.
But I'm having a hard time choosing my Implement Schools. Part of me wants to go Abjuration/Transmutation and make him a strong melee-focused build, picking up Divination at level 2, and later one of the other schools. However, this is not necessarily part of the character 'concept'. A warrior-sage sounds nifty, however, and I'm sure I can pull it off.
I sort of want to go Evocation and/or Necromancy for party usefulness. I can validate the flavor of Necromancy with a healthy obsession with the past, but what other schools to go with? Divination? Evocation? This would change the class to more a dex build.
Alternatively, I could make him bard-esque with Enchantment/Illusion and Divination, giving him more a social/skill focus, at the cost of a bit of survivibility. it would fit the story-telling element of the character, to a degree, but I feel the singular focus could make the character uninteresting.
So I ask the folks here, what builds and set-ups have worked for you all. Occultists are a bit wonky. I'd love to see what ideas you all have and see what can be fun at the table, as well as viable.
I have had good experience with abjuration, transmutation, necromancy and evocation schools. Evocation is mainly for the spells, but the others have amazing focus powers, particularly transmutation.
First of all, make sure that you're able to contribute in combats. It's pretty easy to pick up implement combinations with pretty marginal spells. My second Occultist has a lot of niche spells/powers, but they don't come into play all that much.
I'll go by Focus Powers first, then spells.
Abjuration is great if you're tanking or standing in melee a lot. The base power is great for soaking hits, and getting a free Cloak of Resistance is pretty great. Energy Shield is pretty awesome if you know you'll be taking short bursts of damage. Both this and the Mind Barrier are great uses of swift actions.
Conjuration is meh, nothing really appeals to me, Focus Power-wise.
Divination is really strong. Bonuses on saves, attack rolls, and so on. Doesn't scale as much as I'd like, but still a very good choice.
Enchantment is really good if you can up your DCs a lot. It's mainly save or suck.
Evocation is good if you want to blast stuff. The scaling energy rayss are really good value for your Mental Focus, and the pseudo-Fireball is also a good addition to your arsonal, especially since you can choose the element every time you use it. Note that the Distortion doesn't cost power to activate, so you can be permanently blurry until you make your first attack. Really nice if you want to buff, and avoid sudden attacks.
Illusion is pretty much like Divination, I feel, but with less utility. There's not a lot of in-combat stuff. Color Beam needs a touch attack, followed by a save, and then it might not even work because of HD. This school seems good in a social-heavy environment.
Necromancy is pretty cool, there's some neat stuff you can do. The Mind Fear power is pretty great regardless of HD, provided they fail the save. Necromantic Servant is a pretty cool way to get a "companion," and it levels up with you. It takes a little care, but at higher levels you can do some cool stuff with him. Soulbound Puppet is also really good, but maybe needs some GM leeway. The way I see it, you can build your own familiar from scratch. Meaning you can have a Sage familiar with the exact knowledges you need at that moment, or have a disposable Mauler familiar.
Transmutation is possibly the best school for Occultists. Free Belt of choice per day, slapping enhancements on weapons, ability to fly, change people's sizes, run, and telekinesis. All great things.
As for spell lists:
Abjuration has some great spells from spell level 2 onwards. Level 1 spells are kinda meh, you'll probably be using Shield.
Conjuration is bland all over. Cure spells and random utility spells.
Divination also has some meh spells, but See Invis is pretty great.
Enchantment is more of the above. I'm personally not a big fan of save or sucks.
Evocation is pretty cool, but your first-level spells are a bit lacklustre. Also note that while Fireballs are really cool, you'll be getting it really late. You get it at level 7, one level after Sorcerers, and two after Wizards. Sorcerers can sling three more per day by that level, and Wizards will probably be using even better spells by then.
Illusion has pretty good spells you can also give to your allies. Everyone likes Vanish, Invisibility, Displacement, and so on.
Necromancy's spell list is pretty lacklustre, to be honest.
Transmutation is kickass. There's a reason why this spell list is about twice as big as the other schools.
So, in short, what schools you want to pick totally depend on what your place in the party is. Transmutation and Divination are good either way, but if you're a frontliner, you probably want to pick up Abjuration, while back-row casters will probably like Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantment, and so on.
I have two Occultists. One Tome Eater at level 12 (implements Transmutation, Abjuration, Illusion, Evocation), who is a frontliner and damage-dealer. Spells are purely for backup and utility. Burns through Mental Focus with Mind Barriers and other swift actions. The other is a level 7 casting-focused Necroccultist (implements Necromancy, Transmutation, Divination) that summons skeleton buddies. His spell list is pretty bad, to be honest. Mainly debuff spells, but I've had days where I barely contributed. Plan ahead what your Focus Powers will be and see if you can impact the battlefield somehow. Pick a school whose powers you like, and a school whose spells you like. Apart from Transmutation, there aren't really schools that are good in both, IMHO.
Also, you never have enough Mental Focus to power all your Focus Powers. A lot of archetypes give up an implement school at first level in exchange for something else. This seems like a good deal to me, as you'll really be fighting for where those points go to. You'll lose out on spell power as well, but the Tome Eater can eat books/scrolls to regain Mental Focus ("ooh, look, a diary from Ancient Azlant! OM NOM NOM!"), a Necroccultist gets Wizard spells, and a Battle Host gets extra bonus feats. Magic Circles and Outside Contract are pretty lame class features and only exist to be exchanged for archetypes, IMHO.
|
|
So I think I've narrowed it down to Transmutation at 1st level, definitely.
Abjuration is something I'd love to have, but I'm divided between Necromancy and Divination. I want to be more than a combat hound with this PC, but it's kind of wonky, so I was looking at Evocation. For spells, I know I'm gonna pick up Shield when I get Abjuration.
For Transmutation, though. Lead Blades? Gravity Bow?
Right now, I'm a human with the following skill set-up
STR 16
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 9
CHA 14
I know it's not ideal, but I wanted someone who would be at least likable. Maybe switch DEX and CHA? Lower CON and remove the WIS penalty?
If I go more dex, I can become less focused and instead choose Evocation for the ray effect. But then what about the implements above? It's always hard when a concept clashes with the class build.
Okay, with a DEX of 12 (or perhaps 14), it might be good to skip Evocation. You're still hitting on touch AC, but without Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot, you're still gonna have hell making those rays connect with your opponent. I'm guessing the Transmutation bonus goes to STR, if you put enough points in it?
I don't want to discourage creative builds, but you're indeed spreading yourself out a bit. 9 WIS isn't that bad if you have a strong Will save (which you have), but it's gonna hit your Perception (which can be shored up with Divination, so that might be moot as well).
CHA 14 isn't doing much for your character's powers, but if you're dead set on it, maybe you want to look into the Enchantment school. You get a small bonus on Charisma-based checks, so you can sort of become a party face as well. Personally, I'd prefer to put that 14 in either DEX or CON, but I could see this working. In that case, might I suggest the Battle Host archetype? It starts out with a free masterwork weapon or armour. It's a bit of a cheese, but you could get a masterwork heavy armour for free, which shores up your AC a lot. Be careful though, you use this to cast your spells, so don't sell it or lose it or something.
The CON 12 will give you less hit points and a small hit to your Fort save, but if you use Mind Barrier often, you won't need it much.
Spells are a bit tricky. Personally, I'm not a big fan of Lead Blades and Shield mid-combat, as they eat up actions you could've spent hitting things. If you're higher level (so spells last for longer than a combat) or have advance warning they might have their use, but in combat I prefer to hit things. I've realised that combats usually last about 5 rounds max, and the winner is decided within the first two or three turns. If you spent your turn buffing rather than hitting, you possibly wasted you advantage (there are exceptions, of course, such as a drawn-out endurance battle where you need every advantage you can get). Like in Magic: the Gathering, I've learned that spells that affect the opponent (or in Magic's case: the board state) directly are usually more effective than wasting a turn buffing yourself. With that said, let's go to the spells. Do note though, most of the first-level spells suck, IMHO. Also, this is all from a combat-heavy perspective. Disregard if you're playing a political/social game.
Transmutation: Expeditious Retreat is always nice, but you have access to it through a Focus Power. It's a good choice if you don't that that, otherwise. Pretty much the same with Enlarge Person. It's still a good spell, but a full round is a lot. I'd prefer to have others cast it on me. >_> Feather Fall is really situational. Gravity Bow and Lead Blades you already know my opinion of. You're basically wasting a turn to boost your next turns' damage output by an average of 1 or 2 (let's say you have a d8 weapon. That becomes 2d6. Average of 4.5 versus 7. But by casting it, you've already skipped 4.5 damage, plus possible modifiers. And since combats are over in two or three turns, this is pretty big). Still good if you have time to prepare, though. My personal choice was Liberating Command. It's not a flashy spell, but grapples happen pretty often, and it's good to help your teammates out.
Abjuration: Despite what I've said, Shield is probably still your best choice. Maybe Warding Weapon once the duration is a bit longer. The rest is probably stuff you'll keep on scrolls or leave to a Wizard friend with more spells known to use.
Conjuration: Probably CLW. First level, so you'll need as many Cure spells as you can get your hands on.
Divination: Heightened Awareness is a really good spell, as it gives multiple bonuses and lasts a while. Comprehend Languages is always nice if you're meeting strangers. Diagnose Disease is also good if you're not sure what's wrong with someone.
Enchantment: Pretty much all of them are nice, despite my misgivings about save-or-suck spells. Charm Person doesn't really work once combat has started, but you could theoretically do it at the start of combat. And it works nice with your decent Charisma. Command, Murderous Command, and Forbid Action are really nice. Hypnotism and Sleep are also really good, but have an HD limit.
Evocation: Burning Hands is good versus swarms, but at this level it's only a 1d4. Still, I think it's a better option than Shocking Grasp.
Illusion: Vanish, all day.
Necromancy: Inflict Light Wounds is decent if you otherwise don't plan on using your spells, but I think straight up attacking is better. Cause Fear is good on lower levels and will tide you over until you get second-level spells.
As I said, first-level spells are mostly meh, with a lot of situational spells and no real must-use things. Maybe look at Focus Powers for cool combinations:
Transmutation: Both the Resonant power and the Base power are really good. Size Alteration is really good as a standard action, but worthless until you reach higher level (unless you give it to others). Sudden Speed is nice, but not really first-pick material.
Abjuration: Again, Resonant and Base powers are really good. Otherwise, none of them seem really good (from the "available at first level" ones). Aegis might be good if you have a magic armour and you're able to slap cool things onto it.
Conjuration: Resonant power is okay for rounds/level spells, but not amazing. Base power lets you summon something as a standard action. Pretty good if you're going the summoning route, but at first level, the summons are pretty meh. Instant-flank buddy, pretty much. Also, doesn't really scale well. Conjure Implement can summon weapons for you, that's pretty okay (the implement for Transmutation is a weapon). Convenient when you forgot to bring a certain type of weapon with you. Otherwise, you can summon a horse. Woo.
Divination: Resonant power is good, if point-hungry. Base Power is always good, giving bonuses on d20 rolls (but not saves). No great first-level things, sadly.
Enchantment: Resonant is cool if you want to be party face. You won't be as good as a Bard, but it's something. Base power is pretty good, if opponents fail their saves. Obey is pretty much a Command spell, but scales up in DC as you level up. Inspired Assault is a mini-Bless. Not worth it for only one target, IMHO.
Evocation: Resonant power pairs really well with other powers and Evocation spells. That's worth it, I think. Base power is really good at higher levels. Otherwise, it's a 1d6 ray. Good if you have no backup weapons, but that's it. Maybe get it once it hits 2d6 or so. The other powers are pretty crap at level 1, really.
Illusion: Resonant power is pretty good once you rack up more levels. Right now, it's a 5% miss chance. Base power is situational. I could see it working, but it isn't amazing. But hey, it's a level 2 spell for only 1 mental focus. Color Beam is good if you're fighting 1HD enemies. Otherwise, meh.
Necromancy: Resonant is nice if you plan on animating the dead. Otherwise, worthless. Base power is pretty nice, though. Not guaranteed, but if they fail their save, they pretty much suck. Necromantic Servant is pretty good. They'll be a bit low on HP, but hey, they have DR. Soulbound Puppet is also nice, as I've explained before. Instant-speed disposable familiars are pretty good, especially if they can participate in combat or fix your knowledges.
So, mix and match to your delight, I'd say. I think there's a nice balance between good spells and good focus powers, there's no real school that has both, it's either the one or the other.
Also, if you're Human: I'd recommend the feat Extra Mental Focus. 2 extra Focus doesn't sound like a lot, but it's what makes you tick. Okay, it's good regardless of race, but Humans have an extra feat to spare.
EDIT: Wow, this took roughly 90 minutes to type. >_>
So I think I've narrowed it down to Transmutation at 1st level, definitely.
Abjuration is something I'd love to have, but I'm divided between Necromancy and Divination. I want to be more than a combat hound with this PC, but it's kind of wonky, so I was looking at Evocation. For spells, I know I'm gonna pick up Shield when I get Abjuration.
For Transmutation, though. Lead Blades? Gravity Bow?
Right now, I'm a human with the following skill set-up
STR 16
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 9
CHA 14I know it's not ideal, but I wanted someone who would be at least likable. Maybe switch DEX and CHA? Lower CON and remove the WIS penalty?
If I go more dex, I can become less focused and instead choose Evocation for the ray effect. But then what about the implements above? It's always hard when a concept clashes with the class build.
You may be underestimating how important WIS is for Occultists. You CANNOT CAST while affected by emotion spells, so you need to be careful about that. That being said, with Transmutation's Legacy Weapon, you probably don't need that many spells on demand.
Anyway, DEX as 12 is good enough. Remember that your 3rd level feat should be Heavy Armor Proficiency.
Might want to start off with Toughness if you'll have 12 CON though.
You CAN CAST while affected by emotions effects, you just can't cast S(E) components. There are plenty of good Psychic and Mesmerist options, I assume the Occultist has a harder time, but you can plan around it.
|
|
I realized why I had a high CHA. UMD. However, I have ranks in that to offset so that works out well.
I've decided to start off with Transmutation and Divination, then pick up Abjuration at level 2, and eventually Necromancy.
I think this fits the character concept as well as provides a combination of useful melee and ranged options.
I've switched my stats around DEX is 14, WIS is 12, CHA is 9. I won't have CLW on my character's spell list, but that's okay. I think I'm gonna have a lot of fun with this character. :D Thank you all for your assistance.
For the record, Gravity Bow and Lead Blades are 1 min/level, which is not a lot to balk at. that's 6 rounds of increased damage. Pretty good.
Pragmatic Activator.
For the record, Gravity Bow and Lead Blades are 1 min/level, which is not a lot to balk at. that's 6 rounds of increased damage. Pretty good.
Ten rounds, actually. A round is 6 seconds, but that's beside the point. It's certainly pretty good, but in the long run, it won't matter much, IMHO. I'll give an example:
You start out with 18 STR and a greatsword. Your damage output will be 2d6+6. Lead Blades increases this to 2d8+6, I believe. That's an average of 13 versus 15 damage per round. Combats typically last three to five rounds, max (might vary from GM to GM, of course, but from what I've learned from Adventure Paths, this is about right. Let's just say 4 rounds.Case 1: You just hit every turn, unbuffed. 13 damage times 4 rounds equals 52 damage.
Case 2: You spend one turn casting Lead Blades, then hit every round. 15 damage times 3 rounds equals 45 damage. The only advantage here is if an enemy has say 29 HP, that means it'll take three rounds unbuffed to kill it, or two rounds buffed, but you also spent one turn buffing, so you're still equal.
The only reason you want to cast it, IMHO, is if you can't get close and want to spend the turn doing something useful, or if you know the fight's going to be a slugfest that takes forever. If the fight takes at least 8 rounds, 13 times 7 is 91, 15 times 6 is 90. So from turn 8 onwards, if you keep wailing on the same enemy, you'll be 1 damage ahead (104 unbuffed, 105 buffed). I think Occultists get decent enough spells that I'd rather cast something else, and there's still enough to do on your turn than casting Lead Weapons. Okay, it's not viable from level 1, but with Legacy Weapon, you can slap Bane onto your weapon, giving it a better to-hit and a 2d6+2 extra damage per hit.
For the record, Gravity Bow and Lead Blades are 1 min/level, which is not a lot to balk at. that's 6 rounds of increased damage. Pretty good.Ten rounds, actually. A round is 6 seconds, but that's beside the point. It's certainly pretty good, but in the long run, it won't matter much, IMHO. I'll give an example:
You start out with 18 STR and a greatsword. Your damage output will be 2d6+6. Lead Blades increases this to 2d8+6, I believe. That's an average of 13 versus 15 damage per round. Combats typically last three to five rounds, max (might vary from GM to GM, of course, but from what I've learned from Adventure Paths, this is about right. Let's just say 4 rounds.
Case 1: You just hit every turn, unbuffed. 13 damage times 4 rounds equals 52 damage.
Case 2: You spend one turn casting Lead Blades, then hit every round. 15 damage times 3 rounds equals 45 damage. The only advantage here is if an enemy has say 29 HP, that means it'll take three rounds unbuffed to kill it, or two rounds buffed, but you also spent one turn buffing, so you're still equal.
The only reason you want to cast it, IMHO, is if you can't get close and want to spend the turn doing something useful, or if you know the fight's going to be a slugfest that takes forever. If the fight takes at least 8 rounds, 13 times 7 is 91, 15 times 6 is 90. So from turn 8 onwards, if you keep wailing on the same enemy, you'll be 1 damage ahead (104 unbuffed, 105 buffed). I think Occultists get decent enough spells that I'd rather cast something else, and there's still enough to do on your turn than casting Lead Weapons. Okay, it's not viable from level 1, but with Legacy Weapon, you can slap Bane onto your weapon, giving it a better to-hit and a 2d6+2 extra damage per hit.
2d6 is increased to 3d6, an increase in damage of +3.5 actually.
Thanks for the correction. They recently changed the size increase of damage dice, I forgot how exactly. Apparently the source I looked at was using the old one.
Still, that means Lead Blades becomes useful a turn earlier. Still not really worth it, IMHO.
You need to consider iterative attacks, attacks of opportunity, and other features that allow extra attacks like haste.
Okay, fair point, but IMHO still doesn't justify the use of Lead Blades, as it's 7 damage per turn extra. By the same measure, by the time he has access to Haste/iteratives, the guy can slap Bane on his weapon for the same average amount of damage, plus a +2 to hit.
Also, I was thinking from a level 1 build Haste and stuff doesn't come online until much later.
Simply put, +3.5 damage at level 1 is nothing to scoff at.
Sure, at higher levels you probably won't bother, but it's hardly a waste of a level 1 slot.
Fair point, by that measure you'll outdamage an unbuffed character by turn 3. But I still think buffing in-combat. To a certain extent, the earlier you hit something, the earlier it dies, meaning it can't hit you back. Most common level 1 creatures have only a handful of HP (unless the GM throws a lot of custom things at you, or things with class levels) that you'll slap through anyway. A Zombie has 12 HP, on average you'll do 13 per round anyway. And Zombies hit pretty hard, they could theoretically oneshot first-level characters. Do you really want a turn to buff to kill it the next round for sure and risk him oneshotting you in return when you have a reasonable chance of oneshotting it anyway? As I said, most of the combats are determined by round 2 or 3, you simply don't have time to buff mid-combat, unless there's nothing else you can do. Bards buff everyone at the same time, Witches debuff enemies, and both can throw spells to incapacitate otherwise. One Lead Blades is just overkill.