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I thought you could wear a buckler and use a crossbow/bow without any penalties due to this line
You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.
There is some divergence about what that line means. One school of thought agrees with the guy with the face, you get the buckler and the bow with no penalty. Another school of thought is that you can use a bow without having a penalty to your attack but you lose the shield AC until your next turn as you dedicated your hand to using a weapon instead of defending yourself.
Hrm, now that you pointed that out I don't know what to think...
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Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
The question, as I see it, is whether using a bow or crossbow (each requires two hands) counts as "using a weapon in your off hand". I am of the opinion that it does.
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This is exactly where the debate comes from. In the real world we would obviously think of bows as being a two handed weapon. In game terms a two handed weapon has a very specific meaning and it does not apply to ranged weapons, hence you can not use a compound bow with a rating equal to 1.5 your strength modifier and bows are not listed under the two handed weapons list. It comes down to the often cited but never seen unwritten rules on metaphysical hands of effort.
This particular debate has nothing to do with unwritten rules on metaphysical hands of effort. It has everything to do with people ignoring plain English RAW.
Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, crossbows, shortbows, slings, longbows, and halfling sling staves are examples of projectile weapons—weapons that launch ammunition at a target. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character cannot apply his Strength modifier on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a sling or a specially built composite shortbow or composite longbow. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when she uses a bow or a sling.
You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size ...
Normally, operating a heavy crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a [heavy/light] crossbow with one hand at a [–4/-2] penalty on attack rolls.
It's clearly spelled out in the CRB/PRD that using a bow takes two hands. It's also clearly spelled out (above) that if you use a weapon in your offhand, you lose your buckler's bonus to AC. Since you need to use your offhand to fire a bow, you lose the buckler's bonus to AC. You would not lose your buckler's bonus to AC if you fired a single shot from a light or heavy crossbow one-handed (at a penalty), but would if you used it normally.
The "lack of penalty" for attack with a bow or crossbow refers to the -1 attack penalty you get if trying to use an offhand melee weapon or use your offhand to use a two-handed weapon while wearing a buckler.
RAW in this case is actually pretty clear, if sometimes obscured by people's desire to have their character be as mechanically strong as possible.
I thought you could wear a buckler and use a crossbow/bow without any penalties due to this line
You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.
Yes, but it also means that you don't get the AC benefit in any round that you fire the bow. With any shield heavier than a buckler, you'd be losing the AC benefit, AND taking the -1 penalty.
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Weapon that needs two hands to use doesn't have to mean two-handed weapon.
A bow uses both hands and is not a THW.
A greatsword uses both hands and is a THW.
In the long view of things... you're a bowman... which means that you shouldn't be mixing up in melee any more than the party wizard.
My apologies for my brain lapse and the slight change of subject, but while we are talking about bucklers I have a nagging questions. Mechanically, why would a character opt for a small shield instead of a buckler? I believe in the old days there was fluff text about a buckler only blocking one attack per round, but that may be 2E or earlier. I'm trying to find a way a small shield is better according to the RAW, and I don't see an obvious one. Unless I'm just oblivious (which happens).
I don't have the text in front of me, but I think that Unhindering Shield would let you use a buckler and a bow at the same time without penalty.
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I'm trying to find a way a small shield is better according to the RAW, and I don't see an obvious one. Unless I'm just oblivious (which happens).The only thing I can think of is if you want to use shield bashes, but also want your shield hand free for spellcasting and the like.
Yes - I prefer a light mithril shield for my spellcasters because it means that they threaten for flanking. (I don't expect the arcane ones to accomplish anything even if they do get an AOO, but occasionally they'll grant a flank to a buddy.)
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He didn't say it was a two handed weapon. He quoted multiple times that it takes two hands to use it.
The reason there is a difference is also pointed out by him, that people want to be as mechanically strong as possible. Which is why it's not called a two handed weapon.
Well that is my point. The Buckler description clearly states what is meant by the phrase "use a weapon in your off hand." It means "using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon." Read in context, it is clear. And using a hand to get arrows from your quiver and firing is neither using a hand to help wield a two-handed weapon or using an off-hand weapon.
And yes, the point is to be as mechanically strong as possible. So what? Your position is to make the person as mechanically weak as possible? Motivations aside, the RAW is the RAW.
Hey, if you think that a weapon that takes two hands to use isn't in your off-hand ... well. I'm quite sure you won't change your mind. But in case there are newer people reading here, I want to make sure that my point, which is unambiguously self-consistent with the entirety of RAW, is clear.
Since we're apparently closely parsing the meaning of sentences, I'll point out that nowhere in the Buckler descriptions does it explicitly state that "use a weapon in your off hand" refers back to the separate clause that describes the -1 penalty for using a two-handed weapon or off-hand melee weapon. In fact, it's not even particularly implied. Nor is it, as claimed in my quote, at all clear from context.
The crux of the matter is whether or not using a weapon that states it requires two hands to use actually uses both of your hands (NB: this is not the same as a "Two-handed weapon," a category that contains melee weapons that require at least two hands to use and give you a 1.5x str multiplier and a few other benefits -- as also pointed out by Chess Pwn).
The "debate":
- Bows explicitly state they require two hands to use.
- Bucklers state that if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose their AC bonus.
- Bucklers impose an attack penalty if you use them while TWF or using a two-handed (melee) weapon
- Bucklers also state there is not a penalty when using a bow (unlike with melee weapons)
- The claim is that since bows are in a 'ranged weapons' rather than 'two-handed weapons' category (which is a melee weapons category), you get to keep the AC bonus from the buckler, despite it being explicitly spelled out in every bow and crossbow description that they take two hands to use ("normally" for crossbows)
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I consider the 'You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.' clause to override the off hand weapon rule, so archers can use bows and bucklers together. I understand that other GMs rule it differently. The fun part of my Holy Vindicator is that Vindicator's Shield is separate from the buckler, so when he takes his axe in two hands, he just loses the bucklers AC, not the sacred bonus. I may have to look into Unhindering Shield for him.