Clarification Request: Kapenia Dancer armor proficiencies


Pathfinder Player Companion

Scarab Sages

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I know that I'm probably one of three people this directly affects in PFS, but I figured I'd add it to the list just in case.

The Kapenia Dancer Magus Archetype from Varisia, Birthplace of Legends says that "A Kapenia Dancer is not proficient with armor or shields and suffers the normal arcane spell failure chance when casting magus spells while armored." The archetype does not, however, say that anything replaces the Medium Armor and Heavy Armor abilities that a normal Magus receives at 7th and 13th levels.

The Kensai Magus Archetype has similar language in the Weapon and Armor Proficiencies class ability. At 7th level, Kensai replaces the Medium Armor class feature with Iaijutsu, and at 13th it replaces Heavy Armor with Iaijutsu Force.

Kensai would seem to imply that losing light armor proficiency at 1st level does not automatically remove the medium armor and heavy armor abilities gained at 7th level.

So I'm looking for clarification about what happens with those abilities for a Kapenia Dancer. Here are the options I can see as interpretations within the rules:

1. Kapenia Dancer loses those abilities along with their light armor proficiency.

2. Kapenia Dancer retains those abilities, gaining them at 7th and 13th like normal.

3. Kapenia Dancer instead gains light armor proficiency in place of medium armor at 7th, and medium armor in place of heavy armor at 13th. This is supported by the FAQ that says if something replaces the first instance of an ability like Weapon Training, then when you receive Weapon Training 2, you get the benefit of Weapon Training 1 instead.

I'd be happy with any clarification. As is, the Kapenia Dancer is either significantly weaker than Kensai (which is appears to be based on), or it receives two abilities that directly conflict with Canny Defense, because the Kapenia Dancer can only gain that benefit while wearing no or light armor.

So option 3 would obviously be the one that would most benefit the class. Writing a whole new ability to replace them seems like too much of an overreach. Option 3 would at least make the archetype a little more workable, and might encourage more people to use what I've found to be a flavorful, Golarion based archetype.

Option 2 would still be a boost, as technically you could wear a Mithral Breastplate. The class ability grants medium armor proficiency and removes the arcane spell failure chance, but Mithral armor would count as light armor for Canny Defense. I think there's a good argument for this being the most likely way it works without clarification, given the wording in Kensai and that the medium and heavy armor abilities are separately replaced there.

I'm going to keep playing the archetype regardless. Right now I wear a haramaki in case I'm surprised and UMD a wand of mage armor. I turn 7th in two levels, though, so being able to wear a chain shirt (or a Mithral breastplate) would be a huge benefit.

This has been discussed in the rules forum HERE and very briefly HERE. Since it's in the player companion line, it's unlikely to ever receive an FAQ.

Thanks for reading this far. I know this isn't a pressing issue. Possibly not for anyone other than me. But it seems like the type of thing the Campaign Clarifications could address, and it would help fix the archetype.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Also hoping this gets addressed. ^_^

I love the kapenia dancer, but the holes in the archetype make me leery of playing one, especially in PFS.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

This is a case where the rules text is very clear, but people suspect that might not actually be what they meant.

Yes, as written, it's unambiguous that Kapenia gains proficiency, and spellcasting, in medium and heavy armor at L7 and L13 respectively, but not in light armor ever.

Yes, Kapenia is weaker than kensai; and with armor proficiency, it's still weaker than kensai. In fact, many archetypes are weaker than some other archetype. While I would love to see some weak archetypes errata'ed to improve them (e.g. the vastly underpowered Armored Battlemage, Greensting Slayer, and Spellblade), I'm not sure that's the goal of the clarification document.

Scarab Sages

Well, I'm not really looking for a power boost. I just want to know how to proceed with my item investments. I wish that everyone read the rules as clearly as you do. Getting Medium Armor at 7th is probably the most powerful of the three interpretations, as mithral medium armor could be worn while maintaining Canny Defense. Getting light instead of medium first makes more sense. Heavy armor at 13 doesn't really do anything for the archetype, as it would lose Canny Defense and Int to AC.

It's the possibility of running into a table that rules they get no proficiency that's the issue. I can ask my local VOs and GMs and make my case to them, but a convention GM might rule otherwise. If I'm going to sink 4,400 gold minimum into a mithral agile breastplate before any enhancements, it would be good to know if it will work everywhere. And if it won't work, it would be good to know that, too. Not knowing means I don't know where to put my money. Keep improving the haramaki? It's at +1 now. Next step would be spell-storing. Or wait until 7th and invest in the breastplate. Or, wait until 7th and invest in a magic chain shirt.

It's that uncertainty that I think keeps people from considering the archetype, as much as that it's a little underpowered. It's decidedly less underpowered if it eventually gets light or medium armor proficiency and the ability to ignore spell failure. That doesn't put it on par with Kensai, but it helps it compete. A lot.

If there's not actually any disagreement about it getting Medium Armor at 7th, I'll happily go that route. 5,400 gold for a +1 Mithral Agile Breastplate would get me a 3AC boost over Mage Armor. A +1 Chain Shirt is only a 1 point gain (though I'd also be able to afford Spell-storing or an extra +1 for less than the breastplate).

Scarab Sages

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And actually, to throw one more complication into things, I'm not even sure a Mithral Breastplate would work. It's considered light for everything but proficiency. So it works with Canny Defense. But the Kapenia Dancer would only be able to ignore Arcane Spell Failure while wearing medium armor, which the Mithral Breastplate no longer counts as (except for proficiency).

The Campaign Clarifications Document has actually made a change to an archetype from the player companion line in order to fix a broken archetype. The Sword Saint archetype from the Dragon Empires Primer was modified to fix/clarify the weapon expertise ability and that brutal slash replaces mounted archer. What I'm looking for is something similar for Kapenia Dancer.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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Ferious Thune wrote:


The Campaign Clarifications Document has actually made a change to an archetype from the player companion line in order to fix a broken archetype. The Sword Saint archetype from the Dragon Empires Primer was modified to fix/clarify the weapon expertise ability and that brutal slash replaces mounted archer. What I'm looking for is something similar for Kapenia Dancer.

I agree, I would love to see fixes to "broken" archetypes, including but not limited to this one. Actually, I would much rather see this than changes to items and feats, because an archetype is such a major part of your character.

Liberty's Edge

I would like to add my voice to this one. I must be one of the remaining 2 people in PFS that this effects. :P

Liberty's Edge

graywulfe wrote:
I would like to add my voice to this one. I must be one of the remaining 2 people in PFS that this effects. :P

AAgh I just noticed my misspelling. affects not effects...

Scarab Sages

Good to meet another one of us. There's a third one somewhere. I'm sure of it.

I think I figured out my alternate plan in the very likely event that this isn't clarified before I hit 7th level. I have Light and Medium armor proficiency from an Occultist dip. So I'll get Mithral Kiko armor and take the Arcane Armor Training feat. That really hurts my action economy, but I don't currently have any arcana that use my swift action. Next level that will change as I'm going to take Elasticity. But I've got Wand Wielder, so a lot of my casting comes from wands during a full attack anyway. I don't remember what I had planned for that feat before. I'll have to go back and make sure I can fit Arcane Armor training in.

Id still rather see the archetype fixed.


It does seem a little like this archetype may have been trimmed for space in the book, as it is quite confusingly incomplete as it is.

That said, it is far from the worse written archetype...


Ferious Thune wrote:

I know that I'm probably one of three people this directly affects in PFS, but I figured I'd add it to the list just in case.

The Kapenia Dancer Magus Archetype from Varisia, Birthplace of Legends says that "A Kapenia Dancer is not proficient with armor or shields and suffers the normal arcane spell failure chance when casting magus spells while armored." The archetype does not, however, say that anything replaces the Medium Armor and Heavy Armor abilities that a normal Magus receives at 7th and 13th levels.

The Kensai Magus Archetype has similar language in the Weapon and Armor Proficiencies class ability. At 7th level, Kensai replaces the Medium Armor class feature with Iaijutsu, and at 13th it replaces Heavy Armor with Iaijutsu Force.

The intention is pretty clear that the Dancer loses all armor proficiency. It's absurd to think that they can't master light armor but somehow can master the heavier armors when light armor proficiency is a pre-req for those two feats.

The reason the archetype isn't written the same format as the Kensai is because different hands were stirring that pot.

Silver Crusade Contributor

The Campaign Clarifications document has an... interesting interpretation of the intention. I recommend a fighter splash. ^_^


Kalindlara wrote:
The Campaign Clarifications document has an... interesting interpretation of the intention. I recommend a fighter splash. ^_^

That would give you proficiency. But you'd still have the arcane spell failure chance.

Silver Crusade Contributor

I recommend checking the Campaign Clarifications document. ^_^


For easy reference.

Page 10—Replace the last sentence of the kapenia dancer's weapon and armor proficiency with the following. "A kapenia dancer is not proficent with armor or shields. He does not have the magus's ability to ignore arcane spell failure from armor; however, if he becomes proficient in light armor, he automatically gains the magus's ability to ignore the arcane spell failure chance from light armor. If he becomes proficient in medium armor, at 7th level he ignores medium armor's chance of arcane spell failure. If he becomes proficient in heavy armor, at 13th level he ignores heavy armor's chance of arcane spell failure. This replaces the magus's normal armor proficiencies, including those gained at 7th and 13th level."

I notice that this would mean that Kapenia Dancer is no longer compatible with Spell Dancer.


So the answer is... take the armor proficienciy feats at the appropriate levels, and you can get all the armor use you want.


Kalindlara wrote:
The Campaign Clarifications document has an... interesting interpretation of the intention. I recommend a fighter splash. ^_^

Even with the fighter splash, you still have to weight for the appropriate levels to get out of arcane spell failure. 7th for medium and 13th for heavy.

Silver Crusade Contributor

...Yes? Not sure who was questioning that, but it wasn't me.

All I was saying is, I'd rather take a one-level dip (while gaining the other benefits of fighter/paladin/samurai/etc.) than burn a pile of feats. That's just me, though. ^_^


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Kalindlara wrote:

...Yes? Not sure who was questioning that, but it wasn't me.

All I was saying is, I'd rather take a one-level dip (while gaining the other benefits of fighter/paladin/samurai/etc.) than burn a pile of feats. That's just me, though. ^_^

You know how people feel about giving up caster levels and spell progression though, besides, how many folks want to go all the way to plate armor?

Scarab Sages

Just noticed this thread had some activity. I missed the clarification when it was actually issued, but it's a nice boost to the archetype. I had a dip into Occultist already, so I picked up Light and Medium Armor Proficiencies that way.

One thing to note, Heavy Armor likely won't be a good option even when you reach that level, as there's no way (that I can think of) to get it to be compatible with Canny Defense. Mithral Medium Armor, on the other hand, should work fine at 7th (provided you pick the proficiency up somewhere). Celestial Armor looks like the final goal now.

Honestly, when I asked for the clarification, the best I hoped for was that it pushed things back a step. So get Light Armor Proficiency and no Arcane Spell Failure at 7th instead of 1st, and Medium at 13th. What they came up with works out better for me, but does require a little investment (feat and cost of mitral armor) to be useful.


So, I guess a related question (since I too am a kapenia dancer lover)... when a campaign clarification comes out and affects a character so significantly as this, is there a way to rebuild the character that doesn't involve burning a ton of prestige and gold via Ultimate Campaign retraining? I'd gladly give up one of my earlier feats on my Magus (Kapenia Dancer) 5 to take Armor Proficiency (light) and get something better than my +1 Silken Ceremonial Armor.

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