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Sheer curiosity, would their be any PFS reason a character couldn't start with two peg legs?
Peg leg
Source Pirates of the Inner Sea pg. 21 (Amazon)
Price 10 gp; Weight 5 lbs.Description
A peg leg is a wooden stump with a socket built on one end to fit over an individual’s knee. Pirates who lose legs at sea often wear peg legs. A peg leg reduces your base speed by 5 feet and imposes a –4 penalty on Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim checks. You take half damage from caltrops. Pirates often carve hidden compartments into their peg legs—these compartments can hold small items weighing up to 1 or 2 pounds (or a few swigs of grog). If you have two peg legs, your base speed is reduced to half and you take a –10 penalty on Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim checks. You are immune to damage from caltrops.Peg legs presume that the knee joint is intact. If the knee joint is not intact, use the prosthesis statistics instead.
Some obvious issues with speed, acrobatics, climb, and swim, but it is within the PFS rules to begin with two peg legs, right?
Some obvious issues with speed, acrobatics, climb, and swim, but it is within the PFS rules to begin with two peg legs, right?
Having two peg legs is mentioned in their description. They're PFS legal and I believe they fall into the "always available" category. So, yes; you could start play with two of them.
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Some obvious issues with speed, acrobatics, climb, and swim, but it is within the PFS rules to begin with two peg legs, right?Having two peg legs is mentioned in their description. They're PFS legal and I believe they fall into the "always available" category. So, yes; you could start play with two of them.
The part I'm unclear on is the loss of the legs required to attach them. Always been kinda unclear regarding PFS's stance regarding personal choices in character creation.
There was a very long thread regarding if players could start blind or not. I don't recall what was concluded, but it seemed that players being created disabled constituted some form of in-game advantage which was iffy in PFS. And we had a long debate regarding legal skin tones in PFS. And I'm pretty sure there are PFS rules regarding legal age ranges for PCs.
Not really looking to rehash any of the old topics, but I'm just double checking if I'm allowed to begin play with a character that has stumps for limbs. The peg legs are certainly legal to purchase, but to have as my PC's legs is where I'm unclear.
I'm just double checking if I'm allowed to begin play with a character that has stumps for limbs. The peg legs are certainly legal to purchase, but to have as my PC's legs is where I'm unclear.
Much like roleplaying requirements for prestige classes are waived in Pathfinder Society, I'd personally rule that "playing out" the loss of your legs could be waived and an assumption could be made that it happened before you became a Pathfinder. I just can't see a reason why this wouldn't be legal.
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However, expect EXTREME table variation -- some GMs may view your 'peg leg' condition to be something that 'needs to be cleared' at the end of a scenario via such means as 'Regenerate'.
In addition, what purpose does starting with peg legs serve the rest of the table, aside from potentially crippling the overall mobility of the entire party?
EDIT: Also, why do we keep looking for 'niche' cases? Is it really necessary?
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And we had a long debate regardinglegal skin tonesappearing as DrowPlease choose your words more carefully.
The last thing we need is the insinuation that an actual debate on ethnic inclusivity occurred.
Unfortunatly I did see on here a thread about whether non-white elves were allowed. The OP wanted to play one but their VC said they didn't exist in Golarion, pretty sure that got taken care of REAL quick though.
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Are you really trying to argue that people shouldn't be allowed to roleplay in an rpg because it will reduce the party's movement speed? Should dwarves or Lame oracle halflings also be bannned?Many people play rpg's to immerse themselves in a life not their own. This is why odd cases come up, because they are sought out as unique and interesting challenges, both tactically and from a roleplay perspective.
While a person who is mobility-impaired may appreciate such an effort for such an experience, they may also view it as the highest of insults, as well.
Play carefully, folks, and remember, don't be a jerk.
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I think this is an excellent position to argue: "IF it's legal to begin your adventuring career -- or decide between adventures -- with two peg legs, THEN it should be legal to begin the game with stumps but no peg legs; or missing an arm, or blind.
The in-world question at hand is whether the Venture Captains would send such a character on missions.
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However, expect EXTREME table variation -- some GMs may view your 'peg leg' condition to be something that 'needs to be cleared' at the end of a scenario via such means as 'Regenerate'.
In addition, what purpose does starting with peg legs serve the rest of the table, aside from potentially crippling the overall mobility of the entire party?
EDIT: Also, why do we keep looking for 'niche' cases? Is it really necessary?
Are you really trying to argue that people shouldn't be allowed to roleplay in an rpg because it will reduce the party's movement speed? Should dwarves or Lame oracle halflings also be bannned?
Many people play rpg's to immerse themselves in a life not their own. This is why odd cases come up, because they are sought out as unique and interesting challenges, both tactically and from a roleplay perspective.
The Pathfinder Society would not be sending members on active duty that don't look like they could survive in the wild and rough and tumble situations that Pathfinders find themselves in. A character on Peg Legs is FAR FAR more handicapped than a dwarf or a lame oracle. A character on peg legs is dependent upon using both of his arms for crutches. Which means you have no hands for melee, no hands for ranged, and no free hands for spellcasting. And we won't even talk about climbing and jumping. There are ways a character like that can serve the society.... Field work simply isn't one of them.
The Pathfinder Society would not be sending members on active duty that don't look like they could survive in the wild and rough and tumble situations that Pathfinders find themselves in. A character on Peg Legs is FAR FAR more handicapped than a dwarf or a lame oracle. A character on peg legs is dependent upon using both of his arms for crutches. Which means you have no hands for melee, no hands for ranged, and no free hands for spellcasting. And we won't even talk about climbing and jumping. There are ways a character like that can serve the society.... Field work simply isn't one of them.
If you have two peg legs, your base speed is reduced to half and you take a –10 penalty on Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim checks. You are immune to damage from caltrops.
There is ZERO evidence that your hands are occupied if you have 2 peg legs.
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The Pathfinder Society would not be sending members on active duty that don't look like they could survive in the wild and rough and tumble situations that Pathfinders find themselves in. A character on Peg Legs is FAR FAR more handicapped than a dwarf or a lame oracle. A character on peg legs is dependent upon using both of his arms for crutches. Which means you have no hands for melee, no hands for ranged, and no free hands for spellcasting. And we won't even talk about climbing and jumping. There are ways a character like that can serve the society.... Field work simply isn't one of them.
So your point is that handicapped adventurers are unwelcome in PFS?
I disagree. PFS is a neutral organisation, they'd care about results and the willingness to endure.
I'll also note that the crutches concept is entirely in your head, and not in the rules for peg legs.
Regarding niche cases, I was actually looking into a caltrop specialist, with peg legs granting immunity to such weapons. That's how this came about.
That has never been their position at all.
Not should you use one quote as a barometer for the rest of PFS.
I admit my gut reaction was to say no myself, then a second or two later I thought of the Paralympics. :-)
Handicapped people are capable of many extraordinary feats, no reason why dungeon delving wouldn't be on that list. :-)
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It's a good idea to incorporate people with various disabilities into roleplaying games generally. People with all kinds of disability can and have been finding ways to do a lot of the same things that everyone else does for as long as they've existed (so basically always).
That said, there are a couple of points to consider in this specific case:
1. The core rules and PFS rules don't necessarily say anything one way or the other about starting with prosthetics, but that seems like a weak argument - those rules don't say anything about this because the rules assume that the vast majority of PC's are humanoids without any disabilities. It's an ableist assumption, but it's baked into the way the game is structured.
2. This isn't to say that disabled adventurers can't contribute to the society, and the entry for peg legs explicitly explains the rules for walking with two peg legs, but the assumptions made about people's bodies in the rules, especially in PFS, err on the side of the majority population. Again, it's ableist, but there don't appear to be any rulings about what state you can be in when you start because there are ableist assumptions in place in order to simplify and more easily adjudicate a huge campaign player base.
3. Given the above, this kind of character might be better off in a home campaign. Pathfinder, outside of GM fiat and maybe some subsystems (I think there's something in the Skull and Shackles players guide), doesn't really handle injuries outside of generalized hit points. And considering that PFS requires condition removal between scenarios, this isn't an issue that currently has a ruling. You might be better off asking for a general ruling from PFS on whether characters can start with prosthetics.
4. If, as you say, you want to make this character because you want to take advantage of caltrop immunity, maybe reconsider if that's a cool reason to be arguing about including disabled characters?
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Rather than peg legs, I would think steel soled boots would be just as good and protect your tender feet from your own caltrops, plus, no impact on the party. I get the idea, rather like it, but PFS demands a bit more of both players and their PC's given its strictures and other factors. Just my two coppers really.
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Rather than peg legs, I would think steel soled boots would be just as good and protect your tender feet from your own caltrops, plus, no impact on the party. I get the idea, rather like it, but PFS demands a bit more of both players and their PC's given its strictures and other factors. Just my two coppers really.
In all the times I've played and GM PFS, I've yet to see caltrops as so significant a factor to justify doing this to a character.
Get two peg legs, and two eyepatches.
Play the greatest pirate of all time- perpetually stumbling around like they're drunk.
... What? Combat efficiency?
Clearly you foes will be far too intimidated by your daring mastery of the piracy arts to even attack!
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Get two peg legs, and two eyepatches.
Play the greatest pirate of all time- perpetually stumbling around like they're drunk.
... What? Combat efficiency?
Clearly you foes will be far too intimidated by your daring mastery of the piracy arts to even attack!
2 peglegs 2 parrots 2 hook hands 2 eyepatches.
"Arrr, he's twice the pirate I am"
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The question of whether this hinders a party is certainly one to consider. However, consider the only defined mechanics of this:
If you have two peg legs, your base speed is reduced to half and you take a –10 penalty on Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim checks. You are immune to damage from caltrops.
Half speed and some heavy skill penalties are hardly adventure ruining. There are characters in heavy armor with tower shields that are going around with similar penalties, which players can work around in similar ways. The rules decision on starting with prosthetics should be based on 1) does this interfere with PFS condition removal requirements? 2) If prosthetics are not allowed, why are the items legal for purchase?
The ruling should not be based on "is this character going to be able to adventure and pull their weight?" The rules are well defined concerning the penalties for these prostheses. They don't include "too disabled to go on adventures."
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Everyone is free to RP their character however they want. If I refuse to have my character use his legs, that's my choice.
The difficulty comes when mechanics and RP collide. Your RP can't prevent actual game effects from taking place, and can't grant you a mechanical advantage without an investment of resources.
What happens when your bedridden PC is dominated and told to attack the rest of the party?
Same thing for characters claiming blindness from birth, or counting as another race because of their "heritage", or passing as another race because of description (without Disguise), and other similar instances.
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I was getting worked up before, so sorry about that to Drahliana and the others I misunderstood.
A character on peg legs is dependent upon using both of his arms for crutches. Which means you have no hands for melee, no hands for ranged, and no free hands for spellcasting. And we won't even talk about climbing and jumping.
Just for points of clarity, the Peg Leg rules assume the Knee joints are intact, as per their own description. So the character could jump, not well, hence the -10 acrobatics, but it could be done. Climbing too. The crutches, as before, are not a part of the Peg Leg rules.
As for impaired, yeah, they'd be impaired. But, as mentioned by others, the penalties to skills are pretty similar to the penalties for armor check and those apply to more skills. The speed penalty, again, is certainly a setback, but lame oracles already have lots of good work arounds designed for slow characters.
And regarding the penalties, a character with +3 strength and +3 Dex (specialized, but not unrealistic for PFS characters), 1 rank in each skill, and each of them class skills, reduces these penalties to a meager -3 on the die rolls. Still an impairment, but that's pretty on par with medium armor characters. And regarding the speed penalty, a human barbarian or travel cleric is looking at an effective base speed of 20 ft with two peg legs (or 25 ft, depending on the order these are applied). Again, impairing, but not unheard of. A small character could just take a medium mount without much issue.
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How about a Peg Head? Someone tried to put on the Head of Vecna and had to get a replacement.
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Rather than peg legs, I would think steel soled boots would be just as good and protect your tender feet from your own caltrops, plus, no impact on the party.
side topic:
Been looking for PFS legal Caltrop related options. Where are these Steel soled boots found?As for the value of caltrops, they present a nifty tactical option, as they deny armor, shield and deflection bonuses in their attack roll. They disrupt charges and reduce enemy speed. Yeah, they can be avoided, but they are disruptive and aid in directing the flow of battle. And they're cheap.
PC's are field agents.
Is it evil to say "this is field work, you need all your limbs" no.
is it unrealistic to say "this is fieldwork, you need all your limbs?" No. Many real world organizations that are less physically demanding than the pathfinders have similar requirements.
Is there an in game reason to not allow such a character? A few.
There's no mechanic for missing a limb. You can't just make them up.
And pathfinder society requires that all conditions except for a name few be cleared.
Not every dm will say no but enough will for it to be problematic.
I actually have a PFS character who I designed to be mobily challenged. After a few levels he became entirely bedridden.
This movement impairment was a self-imposed condition on my character and not mechanically enforced. I simply would not have my character take actions he was conceptually unable to make. I have yet to encounter a GM who has forced me to do otherwise.
How exactly did your character than participate in PFS after you did this to him? Did you roll your bed in the Mwangi Expanse?
This, and other bits of verbiage from the guide highly suggests
You can try to rules lawyer anything you want, but that argument won't go over with a lot of DMs. Avoid. You need to clear a baleful polymorph you get on you in the adventure and you can't just say you were polymorphed into a squirrel as a level 0 rogue.