Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane
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After a little bit of digging, I am not sure why the Teisatsu Vigilante Archetype was not allowed. I can only offer theories and here is what I have:
- Fluff of the Archetype
- Potential confusion with the Ki Power and Shadow Tricks Teisatsu Vigilante Talents
- Oversight (best Case Scenario)
A majority of the time, we are never told and left to wonder why something does not make the allowed listing for Pathfinder Society. Campaign Management does review postings on the messageboards and will update us with either a clarification post until the next additional resources is released or update without the clarification messageboard post.
Sorry I was not able to give a why or why not but I hope this helps.
Personally I was expecting this, as whenever I want to make a character with an Archetype or option it is banned or nerfed...
This one I can actually understand. Not only is the Teisatu a clear upgrade to the regular Stalker Vigilante, no it is also a clear upgrade to the Ninja as well. Almost to the degree where I'd argue that Teisatu=Unchained Ninja at least at the PFS level range where advanced Ninja Talents are likely an afterthought.
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A lot of times they disallow things that look like they might be too powerful until they can look at them further.
That's part of my question, is this maybe too powerful? I didn't think so, especially when looking at it compared to the other archetypes for the class. But now that it's banned I'm curious if I'm just bad at seeing if options are too strong.
Ask yourself which Stalker Talent on it's own is better than a Ninja Ki-Pool.
Then compare this side by side to the Ninja. I attempted to do so here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2trkm?Is-the-Teisatsu-Vigilante-the-unchained-n inja#2
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Contributor
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Ask yourself which Stalker Talent on it's own is better than a Ninja Ki-Pool.
Then compare this side by side to the Ninja. I attempted to do so here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2trkm?Is-the-Teisatsu-Vigilante-the-unchained-n inja#2
Shield of Blades.
Not only do you get the most powerful, most necessary martial feat in the game, but you ignore its prerequisites (allowing Dex characters to take it) and it basically adds in the effects of Combat Expertise to the feat for free.
And of course, this is factoring in the fact that the ki pool is uses per day.
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Shield of Blades.
Not only do you get the most powerful, most necessary martial feat in the game, but you ignore its prerequisites (allowing Dex characters to take it) and it basically adds in the effects of Combat Expertise to the feat for free.
Shield of Blades doesn't say you get to ignore the prerequisites for Power Attack so I'm not sure it lets dex based characters ignore the strength requirements. And the extra rider of shield defense is ok, but doesn't work on charges, or cleave, or if you only make one attack and use furious focus.
I'd personally rather have a ninja ki pool.
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Contributor
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After a little bit of digging, I am not sure why the Teisatsu Vigilante Archetype was not allowed. I can only offer theories and here is what I have:
- Fluff of the Archetype
- Potential confusion with the Ki Power and Shadow Tricks Teisatsu Vigilante Talents
- Oversight (best Case Scenario)A majority of the time, we are never told and left to wonder why something does not make the allowed listing for Pathfinder Society. Campaign Management does review postings on the messageboards and will update us with either a clarification post until the next additional resources is released or update without the clarification messageboard post.
Sorry I was not able to give a why or why not but I hope this helps.
Here's a quick comparison by Level:
Proficiencies: Both have the same weapon proficiencies. Vigilante has Medium Armor proficiency. Vigilante wins.
Skills: Both have similar skill sets. Ninja has 2 more skill ranks per level. Ninja wins.
1st — Vigilante has seamless guise, dual identity, and a social talent. Ninja has poison use. Who wins is situational based on what you're looking to do. The vigilante is better at being social and infiltration while the ninja is better at killing people with poison. Vigilante has hidden strike, ninja has sneak attack. Hidden strike does less damage unless the foe is unaware, making it similar to the knife master sneaky stab ability. Vigilante and ninja tie.
2nd — Vigilante gets a ki pool. Ninja gets a ki pool and a ninja trick. Ninja wins.
3rd — Vigilante gets a social talent and unshakable, the latter of which increases by +1 at every level but applies in extremely limited circumstances. Ninja gets no trace +1. Vigilante wins.
4th — Vigilante gets their first choice of a vigilante talent, which are generally more powerful than ninja talents. Ninja gets a ninja trick and uncanny dodge, the latter of which is half a talent. The ninja's choices are less versatile, but the power level is similar. This is a tie.
5th — Vigilante gets a social talent and startling appearance. The ninja gets sneak attack. The vigilante wins.
6th — Vigilante gets a vigilante talent. The ninja gets a ninja trick, her no trace bonus increases to +2, and she gets light steps. In terms of combat power, the vigilante wins. But light steps can be super good, and if we're talking infiltration and or sneaking, the ninja totally wins here. Tie/Not Tie?
7th — Vigilante gets a social talent. Ninja gets nothing new. Vigilante wins.
8th — Vigilante gets a vigilante talent. Ninja gets improved uncanny dodge and a ninja trick. Ninja wins.
9th — Vigilante gets a social talent. Ninja's no trace bonus increases. Vigilante wins.
10th — Vigilante gets a vigilante talent, and some of her talents begin to "pop" so that they start providing additional benefits. Ninja gets a ninja trick and master talents. Who wins here depends on how much you value master tricks. They can be potent, and the vigilante can't take the majority of them. Tie.
So, who wins?
Well, the ninja is the new rogue, and this archetype is the new ninja. Ever since the rogue got elevated to unchained status, the ninja has been lagging behind it in terms of "power," and this archetype has the potential to be strictly superior to the ninja in most regards. However, while I agree that the Teisatsu is better than the ninja, I don't think that its better enough that it invalidates the ninja alternate class in the way that, say, the vivisectionist alchemist would have invalidated the core rogue back in the day (and arguably now as well). Personally, I think they're about as close in power as the ninja class is to the core rogue class, and since those two were allowed to coexist, I feel like the teisatsu should be allowed in the campaign as well.
But that's just my opinion.
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Shield of Blades.
Not only do you get the most powerful, most necessary martial feat in the game, but you ignore its prerequisites (allowing Dex characters to take it) and it basically adds in the effects of Combat Expertise to the feat for free.
Shield of Blades doesn't say you get to ignore the prerequisites for Power Attack so I'm not sure it lets dex based characters ignore the strength requirements. And the extra rider of shield defense is ok, but doesn't work on charges, or cleave, or if you only make one attack and use furious focus.
I'd personally rather have a ninja ki pool.
I mean, if they were both talents I would likely select them both sooner or later. But I also think that a martial character is going to get more mileage out of Power Attack than a ki pool, since once is an at-will feat and the other is a point pool ability.
Plus I don't think the downsides of the AC bonus are that big of a deal—you can't spend ki for an extra attack when you charge (unless you have pounce) or use the Cleave feat, nor if you were only making a single attack (ki for a ninja requires the full attack action after all).
Also, going Teisatsu is going to make you more dependent on having a decent Charisma score (at least a 14, maybe a 16), and everyone always complains about martials not being MAD. (But then again, I don't have any PFS characters with less than an 8 in an ability score, or who have less than 10 in more than one ability score. I build characters differently from most optimizers.)
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Shield of Blades.
Not only do you get the most powerful, most necessary martial feat in the game, but you ignore its prerequisites (allowing Dex characters to take it) and it basically adds in the effects of Combat Expertise to the feat for free.
Shield of Blades doesn't say you get to ignore the prerequisites for Power Attack so I'm not sure it lets dex based characters ignore the strength requirements. And the extra rider of shield defense is ok, but doesn't work on charges, or cleave, or if you only make one attack and use furious focus.
I'd personally rather have a ninja ki pool.
The vigilante's wild attacks allow him to block his foes' counterattacks. He gains Power Attack as a bonus feat. If he already has the Power Attack feat, he can immediately swap it for another feat for which he qualified at the level he chose Power Attack. When he takes an attack or full attack action, if he uses Power Attack on every attack to make melee attacks that use his Strength bonus on attack rolls, he gains a shield bonus to his AC until his next turn equal to his penalty on attack rolls from Power Attack. This bonus applies only if he actually takes that penalty on at least one of the attack rolls.
It says it right there in the second sentence. You gain it as a bonus feat, prereqs be damned.
Why wouldn't it work on charges and cleaves? Those are attack actions.
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Vigilante has seamless guise, dual identity, and a social talent. Ninja has poison use. Who wins is situational based on what you're looking to do.
While you can build around any ability poison is rightly considered an all around poor option due to its absurdly high costs, poor action economy, absurdly high costs, low dcs, and absurdly high costs.
[mortal combat]Vigilante wins [/mortal combat]
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Plus I don't think the downsides of the AC bonus are that big of a deal—you can't spend ki for an extra attack when you charge (unless you have pounce) or use the Cleave feat, nor if you were only making a single attack (ki for a ninja requires the full attack action after all).
Ki attack still shouldn't work on a pounce, as that's still not a full attack action, and yeah power attack is going to be more useful but it's just a feat. Ninja Ki can give you that extra attack, or as long as you have a point it pretty much doubles your jumping distance, or can give you extra speed, or a bonus to stealth. Or if you are this archetype you can use it to fuel barkskin when you get a unchained monk power. It's pretty useful on this archetype, plus it's not like this archetype gives up the ability to get vigilante talents so you could have both.
It says it right there in the second sentence. You gain it as a bonus feat, prereqs be damned.
Why wouldn't it work on charges and cleaves? Those are attack actions.
Bonus Feats don't generally ignore prerequisites unless it says so, other wise fighters wouldn't need to use prerequisites to get their combat feats. Shield of Blades does not say you get to ignore them.
It doesn't work on charges because charges are not full attack actions, they are Charge actions. Cleaves are also not attack actions, they are a standard action separate from the attack action.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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So, who wins?
Well, the ninja is the new rogue, and this archetype is the new ninja.
You can probably make the argument that the Mesmerist is better than the archetype and no one's made a great argument for the Vigilante side of things outside of power attack which isn't great.
After a little bit of digging, I am not sure why the Teisatsu Vigilante Archetype was not allowed. I can only offer theories and here is what I have:
- Fluff of the Archetype
- Potential confusion with the Ki Power and Shadow Tricks Teisatsu Vigilante Talents
- Oversight (best Case Scenario)A majority of the time, we are never told and left to wonder why something does not make the allowed listing for Pathfinder Society. Campaign Management does review postings on the messageboards and will update us with either a clarification post until the next additional resources is released or update without the clarification messageboard post.
Sorry I was not able to give a why or why not but I hope this helps.
Here's a quick comparison by Level:
Proficiencies: Both have the same weapon proficiencies. Vigilante has Medium Armor proficiency. Vigilante wins.
Skills: Both have similar skill sets. Ninja has 2 more skill ranks per level. Ninja wins.
You forgot one and it's a biggy.
Saves: Good Wil Save Progression on the Teisatu. The Teisatu wins.
Still I agree with your general sentiment that the Ninja was in need of a facelift and the Teisatu achieves that nicely.
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Fighters don't "get" bonus feats, they can CHOOSE from a frickin huge ass list. A Vigilante who picks Shield of Blades flat out gets Power Attack from that ability.Bonus Feats don't generally ignore prerequisites unless it says so, other wise fighters wouldn't need to use prerequisites to get their combat feats. Shield of Blades does not say you get to ignore them.It says it right there in the second sentence. You gain it as a bonus feat, prereqs be damned.
Why wouldn't it work on charges and cleaves? Those are attack actions.
It doesn't work on charges because charges are not full attack actions, they are Charge actions. Cleaves are also not attack actions, they are a standard action separate from the attack action.
*blink*
*blink*
Charges and Cleaves aren't attack actions?
....
In the most politest way I can say it, that is the dumbest thing I've read on here.
According to the d20PFSRD
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.
and
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Now I have never heard of a charge being called a Charge Action, but may be it is.
As for Cleave, I thought it was the result of an Attack, which is a Standard Action, or a Full Attack which is a Full-Round Action. Maybe I am wrong.
Ask yourself which Stalker Talent on it's own is better than a Ninja Ki-Pool.
Then compare this side by side to the Ninja. I attempted to do so here:
Linkified for you...
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According to the d20PFSRD
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.and
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.Now I have never heard of a charge being called a Charge Action, but may be it is.
As for Cleave, I thought it was the result of an Attack, which is a Standard Action, or a Full Attack which is a Full-Round Action. Maybe I am wrong.
If it's called anything other than simply "Charge" I've always seen it written as "Charge Attack".
They're (charge and cleave) both types of attacks, they're both modified by things that modify attacks.
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In the most politest way I can say it, that is the dumbest thing I've read on here.
Please read the FAQ on Vital Strike..
The ramifications of that FAQ have been known on the rule boards for years, but what it boils down to is that being granted a melee attack [as granted by feats like Cleave, or by charging] is not the same thing as using a standard action to use the attack action.
Any feature that says "as a standard action you can" and grants you an attack is not considered to be using the attack action which is a specific action on the combat action chart in the core rule book.
Charge is a separate action on the combat chart in the core rulebook directly underneath Full Round Attack if I recall. Which is why it's not a full round attack.
This is also why Spell Combat couldn't benefit from haste originally until that ruling was overturned in 2013.
To surmise, making an melee or ranged attack does not mean you are taking the standard action called attack from the combat chart.
Now I have never heard of a charge being called a Charge Action, but may be it is.
As for Cleave, I thought it was the result of an Attack, which is a Standard Action, or a Full Attack which is a Full-Round Action. Maybe I am wrong.
I'm not calling it a charge action while playing, but it's a seperate action on the chart so I'm calling it that the same way people use attack action, for clarity.
No, Cleave is like Vital Strike in that it requires you to take a standard action to use. In earlier 3.x game systems Cleave was a free attack that could trigger as a result of any melee attack, but not in Pathfinder.
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*head* *desk*
Please read it yourself so you actually know what you're talking about.
All that FaQ says is that Vital Strike is a specific standard action to use that can't be combined, obviously, with other standard or full round actions. It mentions absolutely nothing about abilities that modify bonuses/penalties to attacks.
Power Attack is an ability that MODIFIES attacks, not an attack in and of itself. There is no action part on Power Attack. You can use it with a Charge. You can use it with a Cleave. You can use it with Spring Attack. You can use it with Vital Strike.
Those are all attack options. Power Attack works with all of them.
If you take Shield of Blades without 13 strength, it doesn't do you any good. You get Power Attack, but since you don't meet the pre-reqs and you don't ignore them, you can't use PA and don't count as having it for other pre-reqs. You'll notice a lot of other talents do let you ignore pre-reqs.
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If you take Shield of Blades without 13 strength, it doesn't do you any good. You get Power Attack, but since you don't meet the pre-reqs and you don't ignore them, you can't use PA and don't count as having it for other pre-reqs. You'll notice a lot of other talents do let you ignore pre-reqs.
The vigilante's wild attacks allow him to block his foes' counterattacks. He gains Power Attack as a bonus feat. If he already has the Power Attack feat, he can immediately swap it for another feat for which he qualified at the level he chose Power Attack. When he takes an attack or full attack action, if he uses Power Attack on every attack to make melee attacks that use his Strength bonus on attack rolls, he gains a shield bonus to his AC until his next turn equal to his penalty on attack rolls from Power Attack. This bonus applies only if he actually takes that penalty on at least one of the attack rolls.
"He gains Power Attack as a bonus feat."
Flat out, the ability says the Vigilante gains it, doesn't mention he gains it if he meets the prerequisites. He gains it, just like that.
Edit: Calming down, calming down.
I am of the opinion that you do get it without meeting the perquisites and can use it without them.
And if you have a feat that you don't meet the prerequisites for, you can't use it and don't count as having it for other purposes. Otherwise why would several Vigilante talents from the same book let you gain something and ignore prerequisites?
Edit: from context (the mentions of ignoring prereqs elsewhere in the section), I am of the opinion that you still need to meet them, but the fact that we both have reasonable views on this probably means an FAQ would be helpful if it's going to be presented in a confusing manner.
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*head* *desk*
Please read it yourself so you actually know what you're talking about.
Those are all attack options. Power Attack works with all of them.
I said the second portion of Shield of Blades the part that adds a shield bonus to your AC doesn't work with Charge or Cleave because "When he takes an attack or full attack action" is a requirement for that part to work. And that part doesn't work on cleave and charges. I did not make any statements saying power attack didn't work on them. Sorry for the confusion.
Edit: Sorry I posted faster than my brain should have allowed. Sorry for being rude.
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And if you have a feat that you don't meet the prerequisites for, you can't use it and don't count as having it for other purposes. Otherwise why would several Vigilante talents from the same book let you gain something and ignore prerequisites?
Edit: from context (the mentions of ignoring prereqs elsewhere in the section), I am of the opinion that you still need to meet them, but the fact that we both have reasonable views on this probably means an FAQ would be helpful if it's going to be presented in a confusing manner.
A FaQ may be needed, true. But I checked and out of all the Vigilante talents none of them have the so called "can ignore prerequisites" that was claimed earlier, in fact the only time prerequisites are mentioned is the Combat Skill, which specifically calls that for those you DO have to meet the prerequisites.
So actually meeting the prerequisites seems to be the odd one out here.
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And if you have a feat that you don't meet the prerequisites for, you can't use it and don't count as having it for other purposes. Otherwise why would several Vigilante talents from the same book let you gain something and ignore prerequisites?
Edit: from context (the mentions of ignoring prereqs elsewhere in the section), I am of the opinion that you still need to meet them, but the fact that we both have reasonable views on this probably means an FAQ would be helpful if it's going to be presented in a confusing manner.
A FaQ may be needed, true. But I checked and out of all the Vigilante talents none of them have the so called "can ignore prerequisites" that was claimed earlier, in fact the only time prerequisites are mentioned is the Combat Skill, which specifically calls that for those you DO have to meet the prerequisites.
So actually meeting the prerequisites seems to be the odd one out here.
Both Strike the Unseen and Signature Weapon have it listed that you get to ignore prerequisites. They are on the same page as Shield of Blades.
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I edit my thread to apologize Rysky, before your last post.
The bonus to AC only happens when you take a penalty to attack rolls from Power Attack while using the attack or full attack actions.
I made the effort to distinguish them in my first post and assumed that you had read the first post and understood the context in which I was reply. I once again apologize for the confusion i did not understand you were talking about power attack I merely thought you were arguing against the context since you cut the quoted text from me from that context.
I again apologize because I didn't realize I wasn't clear about the context of my post.
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Both Strike the Unseen and Signature Weapon have it listed that you get to ignore prerequisites. They are on the same page as Shield of Blades.And if you have a feat that you don't meet the prerequisites for, you can't use it and don't count as having it for other purposes. Otherwise why would several Vigilante talents from the same book let you gain something and ignore prerequisites?
Edit: from context (the mentions of ignoring prereqs elsewhere in the section), I am of the opinion that you still need to meet them, but the fact that we both have reasonable views on this probably means an FAQ would be helpful if it's going to be presented in a confusing manner.
A FaQ may be needed, true. But I checked and out of all the Vigilante talents none of them have the so called "can ignore prerequisites" that was claimed earlier, in fact the only time prerequisites are mentioned is the Combat Skill, which specifically calls that for those you DO have to meet the prerequisites.
So actually meeting the prerequisites seems to be the odd one out here.
Ah, okay, missed those. So you have talents that,
A) Specifically say you can ignore prerequisites.
B) Specifically say you have to meet the prerequisites.
C) say nothing.
I'm still inclined for the C) ones that you don't need to meet the prerequisites.
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Shield of Blades doesn't say you get to ignore the prerequisites for Power Attack so I'm not sure it lets dex based characters ignore the strength requirements. And the extra rider of shield defense is ok, but doesn't work on charges, or cleave, or if you only make one attack and use furious focus.
To highlight that I did in fact present my arguments in this thread based on it being the second part of Shield of Blades that didn't work on Cleaves or Charges and that was my context I was working from. That was from my first post in this thread.
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I edit my thread to apologize Rysky, before your last post.
The bonus to AC only happens when you take a penalty to attack rolls from Power Attack while using the attack or full attack actions.
I made the effort to distinguish them in my first post and assumed that you had read the first post and understood the context in which I was reply. I once again apologize for the confusion i did not understand you were talking about power attack I merely thought you were arguing against the context since you cut the quoted text from me from that context.
I again apologize because I didn't realize I wasn't clear about the context of my post.
Okies, I apologize for getting heated as well. I did miss in the first post were you tried to separate the two.
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Both Strike the Unseen and Signature Weapon have it listed that you get to ignore prerequisites. They are on the same page as Shield of Blades.And if you have a feat that you don't meet the prerequisites for, you can't use it and don't count as having it for other purposes. Otherwise why would several Vigilante talents from the same book let you gain something and ignore prerequisites?
Edit: from context (the mentions of ignoring prereqs elsewhere in the section), I am of the opinion that you still need to meet them, but the fact that we both have reasonable views on this probably means an FAQ would be helpful if it's going to be presented in a confusing manner.
A FaQ may be needed, true. But I checked and out of all the Vigilante talents none of them have the so called "can ignore prerequisites" that was claimed earlier, in fact the only time prerequisites are mentioned is the Combat Skill, which specifically calls that for those you DO have to meet the prerequisites.
So actually meeting the prerequisites seems to be the odd one out here.
Ah, okay, missed those. So you have talents that,
A) Specifically say you can ignore prerequisites.
B) Specifically say you have to meet the prerequisites.
C) say nothing.I'm still inclined for the C) ones that you don't need to meet the prerequisites.
As the rules in Pathfinder are exclusive not inclusive, I'd lean towards C) being functionally equivalent to B, not A. (Also, it's the safer assumption as far as table variation is concerned.)
Not without completly derailing the thread...
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Maybe, but i'm proud of them. Well done folks. Now back to the Teisatsu.
