There aren't rules for any sort of lasting mental trauma in the game, so there isn't a way to deal with them either really. Though you could probably argue some spells that exist should help fix the problems.
Restoration and heal are pretty much focused only on the physical aspects of your body, not on problems with your mind.
Also, as a side note, the Sanity/Maddness rules that you linked to are truly a terrible set of rules that don't really make sense.
You might want to wait a couple of weeks for Horror Adventures to come out. There may be an answer to your question in that book.
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Greater Restoration
This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it dispels all permanent and temporary negative levels afflicting the healed creature. Greater restoration also dispels all magical effects penalizing the creature's abilities, cures all temporary ability damage, and restores all points permanently drained from all ability scores. It also eliminates fatigue and exhaustion,
****and removes all forms of insanity, confusion, and similar mental effects.****
Nitpick, (I really am that way)
Misuse of the word Trauma. Trauma is when you take the damage. The PT of PTSD stands for Post Traumatic
The problem is then is PTSD a form of insanity, confusion, or similar mental effects?
It's a weird area. The game doesn't really have such a condition in the first place, and so it shouldn't be surprising that it doesn't have means for dealing with them either.
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
How would it ..not.. be covered by ..ALL forms of insanity, confusion, or similar effects..
If you are trying to underscore that PTSD is a real, terrible life wrecking thing?
Noted and accepted.
If your are trying to convince that it is untreatable, YOU ARE WRONG.
Getting help HELPS.
I hate going all caps, but this is real world critically serious.
I didn't say it was un-treatable, where are you even pulling that from.
What I am saying is, "Does PTSD qualify as an insanity?" PTSD isn't even a game term. PTSD is a mental disorder, does it also qualify as an Insanity?
The game mechanics don't really address such issue, including developing and healing them.
I think you're going a little too hard into real life issues which I am not addressing at all, only the mechanics of the game.
So calm down, please.
Insanity = Mental Disorder, it is just an emotionally charged word with a lot of judgmental BS thrown in.
I inferred that you were saying it is untreatable because you dismissed a spell description that specifically said it cured it.
The mechanics don't address ..getting.. the condition, because it doesn't fit the genre. It is realistic, yes, but really how fun is it? If you have never had any dealings with the issue, there is no resonance. If you have had a friend run away to live alone in the woods, or eat a gun, there is altogether too much resonance. I don't need that in my game. It isn't therapeutic in the game, unless the GM is actually a therapist, not really what the game is for.
Given the nature of PTSD I doubt the restoration spell family would help. Now a spell that removes a memory might help the person, though there might be some lingering effects somewhere in that.
Of course there's always miracle and wish.
What I am saying is, "Does PTSD qualify as an insanity?" PTSD isn't even a game term. PTSD is a mental disorder, does it also qualify as an Insanity?Depending on how one interprets the "similar mental effects" clause of greater restoration, it might be something of a moot point with regards to what is and is not insanity.
Exactly, these sorts of questions are the crux of the problem.
As a GM for a home game you can decide however you like. For me as a GM, I wouldn't apply any insanity or PTSD as something that the players could be afflicted with so it's irrelevant for me.
GM discretion, of course, but it helps to consider the inspiration for Pathfinder, which is pulp fantasy, horror, etc. In such sources, PTSD would almost certainly be considered in the same territory as insanity, even though we do not do so today. For such purposes, I would certainly consider that healers in the Pathfinder setting would want to have a spell that would heal such maladies, and Greater restoration sounds like the right spell to do that. How would it work? Well, it probably wouldn't remove the memory, instead it would alter the target's mind/brain to eliminate the instant, strong, debilitating connection between the memory and pain/fear/panic. They would be able to remember it, but it wouldn't give them panic attacks.
At the very least, regardless of whether or not PTSD is an insanity, there would almost definitely be some specific magic spell (if another did not cover it) that would fix the problem. There isn't a malady that exists that can't be removed via magic (assuming the casters makes the check).
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Psychic Surgery.
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I'm not sure our rules can adequately and respectfully model something like PTSD, but the question is pretty fascinating.
Given that there does seem to be a physiological component to it (much like how painkillers like aspirin have been shown to reduce the intensity of emotional pain), I suspect that straight-up healing spells would help with the intensity but not solve the problem.
There might be something there with psychic magic, though.
General cure for insanity is the Heal spell.
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Going to the Mayo Clinic here:
Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a mental health condition that's triggered by a terrifying event — either experiencing it or witnessing it. Symptoms may include flashbacks, nightmares and severe anxiety, as well as uncontrollable thoughts about the event.
I would probably argue that a low-level spell like remove fear and calm emotions could probably suppress it while in effect, but it probably would take restoration or a similar effect to permanently heal the person.
It also seems very likely that something like Telempathic Restoration or Transfer Fear would also work.
Also remember, PTSD has been effectively treated in real life through non-magical drugs and counseling. If you can't get to restoration, it might not be needed if the character can get non-magical aid.
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What I am saying is, "Does PTSD qualify as an insanity?" PTSD isn't even a game term. PTSD is a mental disorder, does it also qualify as an Insanity?
Are we seriously discussing -- arguing about -- whether PTSD qualifies as "insanity"?
First of all, "insanity" is now a legal term, not a medical term, precisely because so many people with mental disorders (and who work with such people) dislike the long-standing negative connotations of that term. But fundamentally, the clinical definition of insanity is "those mental disorders that are of such a serious or debilitating nature as to interfere with one's capability of functioning within the legal limits of society and performing the normal activities of daily living." The definition of psychosis, which is a medical term, is similar.
PTSD is definitely a mental disorder, and it definitely interferes with normal activities. It's an "insanity" under the standard but now deprecated clinical definition, and would be cured by any of the other spells that treat "insanity."
The fact that there is a physical component to PTSD is irrelevant. There is a physical component to most mental disorders, which is why drugs work in the first place. And the various high-level healing spells have little difficulty treating physical injuries as well.
Okay, after reading this page it looks like per RAW greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, and wish would fix up PTSD since they can fix paranoia and phobias which are also anxiety disorders.
I guess age is the only malady that can't be permanently cured. I'm honestly not a fan of this though. I don't like things like autism being able to be cured by a spell.
Okay, after reading this page it looks like per RAW greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, and wish would fix up PTSD since they can fix paranoia and phobias which are also anxiety disorders.
I guess age is the only malady that can't be permanently cured. I'm honestly not a fan of this though. I don't like things like autism being able to be cured by a spell.
When with a spell you can cure missing limbs, paralysis, deafness and other disabilities and physical conditions, why is it not okay to do so with mental conditions? It is kind of a double standard.
There even are magical means that change aligment/personality, sex or race for the matter.
When with a spell you can cure missing limbs, paralysis, deafness and other disabilities and physical conditions, why is it not okay to do so with mental conditions?Okay, after reading this page it looks like per RAW greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, and wish would fix up PTSD since they can fix paranoia and phobias which are also anxiety disorders.
I guess age is the only malady that can't be permanently cured. I'm honestly not a fan of this though. I don't like things like autism being able to be cured by a spell.
Because some of my characters start with mental conditions like pyrophobia or severe social anxiety and I want them to overcome it on their own with time, not have a few magic words do the job for them.
I rule that heal and similar magic can only cure insanities caused by brief actions or brief traumatic events. More serious afflictions like PTSD caused by years of service in the war require longterm care and/or more complicated applications of magic gradually applied over a period of time. A single spellcast doesn't cut it.
In my campaign, there's psychic mages that specialize in treatment of the mind. Some of them even dive into a mindscape of the patient in a manner not unlike the game Psychonauts. However, there's also a breed of psychic mages that use similar techniques for nefarious purposes where they can rewrirte or alter a person's mind through long, sustained applications of magic. People call them "mindscrapers" because they can rip apart a person's mind so it becomes a blank slate for them to rebuild as they see fit, leaving almost nothing left of the person's original identity and personality.
I'd say PTSD counts as insanity, that's how every mental disorder that does have rules works.
Okay, after reading this page it looks like per RAW greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, and wish would fix up PTSD since they can fix paranoia and phobias which are also anxiety disorders.
I guess age is the only malady that can't be permanently cured. I'm honestly not a fan of this though. I don't like things like autism being able to be cured by a spell.
I understand this feeling, I do. When in real life these conditions are serious and life altering, it feels insulting that someone says "oh why don't you just get over it?" Being able to magic them away in the game feels kinda like that. As if others are denying your real experiences.
But consider the other view: I enjoy roleplaying games as an escapism. In real life problems need to be solved by talking, and the world is not black and white, but in shades of grey. In my RPG, problems are solved by hitting them until they stop being problems. It's empowering to be in control of your own destiny.
I know that anything my character runs into, he or she can solve by trying hard enough and being heroic enough. When people try to label some things as unchangeable for real-life reasons, that annoys me. It feels like they are saying "this problem is so big, you can't overcome it, no matter how hard you try."
Pathfinder and 3.5 before it are firmly in the high-fantasy/high-adventure genre. Situations like PTSD are more appropriate for a more gritty world, and sanity for a horror adventure. I think it makes much more sense to have campaign specific rules that alter how these conditions interact than to permanently change the rules.
Incidentally: If I wanted an adventure about an old soldier beating his mental traumas, I would have the PTSD be some sort of demon that is dogging him. Then he would be able to get his comrades in arms together and vanquish it. Perhaps in a battle in his mindscape.
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I understand this feeling, I do. When in real life these conditions are serious and life altering, it feels insulting that someone says "oh why don't you just get over it?" Being able to magic them away in the game feels kinda like that. As if others are denying your real experiences.
What about being forced to live on a wheelchair because of spinal damage, or having lost both legs or an arm in an accident, or other serious disabilities like blindness or deafness? Isn't their life equally hard?
If mental conditions are to be dignified like physical condition (as they should), the standard is to be applied both ways.
I'm okay with high level magic fixing major conditions. It gives lower level characters something to strive for.
I have a character whose longterm goal is to get a resurrection for his diseased daughter. So he's slowly gathering funds and social influence to secure one.
Okay, after reading this page it looks like per RAW greater restoration, heal, limited wish, miracle, and wish would fix up PTSD since they can fix paranoia and phobias which are also anxiety disorders.
I guess age is the only malady that can't be permanently cured. I'm honestly not a fan of this though. I don't like things like autism being able to be cured by a spell.
Do you have the same problem with alignhment change, blindness, deafness, missing limbs, and even DEATH itself being cured by a spell?
If not, why is this one thing different?
Drahliana,
I can't claim to speak for Hyper, but in my experience, there are many directions and degrees of Autism, with varying degrees of treatableness. Some you wish could fix because they are hurting people, the subject or family. Some just are, and sometimes are part and parcel of a very special person. I have a friend who might be a little different, but I couldn't see her any different way. She would say, "What, you want me to be boring?
Perhaps Hyper has someone like that.
Drahliana,
I can't claim to speak for Hyper, but in my experience, there are many directions and degrees of Autism, with varying degrees of treatableness. Some you wish could fix because they are hurting people, the subject or family. Some just are, and sometimes are part and parcel of a very special person. I have a friend who might be a little different, but I couldn't see her any different way. She would say, "What, you want me to be boring?Perhaps Hyper has someone like that.
Then you're getting into areas that are best addressed in White Wolf Storyteller, not the wargame that Pathfinder is descended from.
Drahliana,
I can't claim to speak for Hyper, but in my experience, there are many directions and degrees of Autism, with varying degrees of treatableness. Some you wish could fix because they are hurting people, the subject or family. Some just are, and sometimes are part and parcel of a very special person. I have a friend who might be a little different, but I couldn't see her any different way. She would say, "What, you want me to be boring?Perhaps Hyper has someone like that.
Obviously a person can be functional to not be considered insane, and in such a case the question would not come up.
Yes, agree to both. This bit seems to be a question that may not need an answer.
There's also the relatively new science of epigenetics to consider, which rather strongly seems to imply that traumatic events in the life of an individual actually change that individual's DNA. So trauma is not simply an illness in the traditional sense that you can feasibly 'cure' like measles or even cancer. It quite literally changes who you fundamentally are as a living thing.
That said, I'd invite the idea that PTSD and similar traumas might, mechanically speaking, fall closer to being a curse rather than a disease, and would thus be dealt with accordingly. Just a suggestion, but it makes more sense to me from a gaming perspective.
There's also the relatively new science of epigenetics to consider, which rather strongly seems to imply that traumatic events in the life of an individual actually change that individual's DNA. So trauma is not simply an illness in the traditional sense that you can feasibly 'cure' like measles or even cancer. It quite literally changes who you fundamentally are as a living thing.
That said, I'd invite the idea that PTSD and similar traumas might, mechanically speaking, fall closer to being a curse rather than a disease, and would thus be dealt with accordingly. Just a suggestion, but it makes more sense to me from a gaming perspective.
That's not how epigenetics works.
The key aspect of epigenetics which distinguishes it from other genetic sciences is that the DNA doesn't change. What changes is how the mechanisms inside the organism's cells interact with the DNA.
Besides, Healing Magic can totally reverse chronic radiation damage, which does cause genetic damage. Heck, Radiation is a poison effect that only deals strength damage and constitution drain. Given how radiation works, making minor genetic restorations is well within the known scope of healing magic.
There's also the relatively new science of epigenetics to consider, which rather strongly seems to imply that traumatic events in the life of an individual actually change that individual's DNA. So trauma is not simply an illness in the traditional sense that you can feasibly 'cure' like measles or even cancer. It quite literally changes who you fundamentally are as a living thing.
That said, I'd invite the idea that PTSD and similar traumas might, mechanically speaking, fall closer to being a curse rather than a disease, and would thus be dealt with accordingly. Just a suggestion, but it makes more sense to me from a gaming perspective.
All that does is change the one spell you need to cure it, which doesn't get to the root of the poster's problem. The poster who seems to have no problems with wounds, dismemberment, posession, most forms of insanity, or even DEATH itself cured by a single spell, seems to have problems with this ONE particular condition being curable. And this is in a game which does not generally even have trauma as a standard condition.
As somebody with autism, I don't consider the listed examples changing my condition much. Mostly because I consider it having an Int score much higher than my Cha score.
There's a tendency in common parlance to use "autism" in a much broader context and for much milder examples than the diagnostic criteria actually justify. Part of it can be attributed to the more modern term "autism spectrum disorder," which (correctly) points out that symptoms similar to autism can manifest in a variety of different ways and at different severity levels, but leads people to (incorrectly) believe that autism simpliciter is not actually that bad, and certainly not a disability.
Or to put it another way, if you actually have autism, then (by diagnostic criteria), you have "symptoms [that] cause clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of current functioning," because that's what the word means.
I could, for example, posit "poor vision spectrum disorder," where a person with 20/40 vision is at one end of the spectrum and an actual blind person is at the other. It should be obvious that the need, at one end, for reading glasses does not somehow make the need at the other end for guide dogs and books in Braille disappear.
The DSM-V is actually fairly explicit that level 3 autism spectrum disorder causes "severe impairments" that interfere with a normal life in a fairly wide range of circumstances. "For example, a person with few words of intelligible speech." That's not "having an Int score much higher than my Cha score," especially when one of the primary aspects of intelligence -- flexibility and adaptability -- is also greatly impaired. ("extreme difficulty coping with change, or other restricted/repetitive behaviors markedly interfere with functioning in all spheres.") [See the DSM-V for full description.] Even level 1 ASD is still a "disorder."
Mental dysfunctions that display as "severe impairments" that "markedly interfere with functioning in all spheres" were pretty much the definition of insanity, back when insanity was a medical instead of legal term.
Technically, I have Asperger's, but even more technically, that nomenclature is obsolete (part of ASD). Hence, I refer to myself as "autistic."
Yeah, that's what I was suggesting. Less politely, you have "poor vision spectrum disorder," meaning you need reading glasses, and therefore you deny the existence of actual blindness.