Understanding Catch Off-Guard


Rules Questions


Catch Off-Guard
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.

Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.

I'm trying to understand the RAW and RAI of Catch Off-Guard.

When I see that name and that description, the image that comes to mind is someone, say, drinking beer from a mug, then smashing it over someone's head as a surprise round attack before the enemy had a chance to draw their sword. However, I don't think I've ever seen it used that way.

Heck, I've never even seen someone pick up a weapon from the environment. The few times I've ever seen someone take this feat, they ended up just carrying statues and table legs around on their belts as if they were swords. The weapons weren't 'improvised' as much as they were specialty clubs, usually used as part of a Disarm build where they would try and remove the enemy's weapon in the middle of combat in hopes they could get a Flat-Footed attack in. While this is a legitimate build, it doesn't quite make sense to me in either a thematic or a verisimilitude fashion; you're not really 'catching them off-guard' with the table leg any more than you would have with any other weapon.

Plus, I don't think the image the feat gives me works, anyway. If you attack someone in the surprise round they're already flat-footed if they haven't acted (assuming they would use their action to draw a weapon), so what's the point of the feat? I guess if you won initiative you could get an extra 'they're flat-footed' attack in the first round if they haven't drawn a weapon yet, but I've never seen that circumstance happen.

Am I missing something about this feat? Is there really a way to catch someone off-guard with the feat that feels like catching them off guard?


The primary benefit here is being able to arm yourself with anything. It's good in situations where you and your opponent are mutually disarmed, such as in prison or a secure area. (It's especially useful in situations where people won't have armor either.) You can disarm or sunder to make someone flat-footed against you,

The "picture this" scenario is meeting someone in any friendly or disarmed context and then beating them to death in a very one-sided fight.

Dark Archive

Think of it in the context of the Bourne movies... In the first one he is already engaged in a fight when he grabs the ink pen. I mean who in their right mind would think an ink pen would be effective. Or in the second Bourne movie he uses the rolled up magazine....


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I understand the intent of using improvised weapons, but the rest of the feat doesn't seem to actually make sense in an at-the-table sort of way.


Most GMs don't bother to populate the environment to the level of detail necessary to use the feat. Talk to your GM and work something out. Maybe you could tell him you want to grab an improvised weapon and let him provide a selection of what's avalible. I guess Bourne was offered a choice of a telephone, pile of mail or a ball point pen. I might have gone withe the telephone myself :-)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Not sure what doesn't make sense.

Quote:
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.

You don't take the –4 penalty.

Unarmed targets are flat-foot. Most are armed, so not much here.

Scarab Sages

AdamMeyers wrote:

Heck, I've never even seen someone pick up a weapon from the environment. The few times I've ever seen someone take this feat, they ended up just carrying statues and table legs around on their belts as if they were swords. The weapons weren't 'improvised' as much as they were specialty clubs, usually used as part of a Disarm build where they would try and remove the enemy's weapon in the middle of combat in hopes they could get a Flat-Footed attack in. While this is a legitimate build, it doesn't quite make sense to me in either a thematic or a verisimilitude fashion; you're not really 'catching them off-guard' with the table leg any more than you would have with any other weapon.

Plus, I don't think the image the feat gives me works, anyway. If you attack someone in the surprise round they're already flat-footed if they haven't acted (assuming they would use their action to draw a weapon), so what's the point of the feat? I guess if you won initiative you could get an extra 'they're flat-footed' attack in the first round if they haven't drawn a weapon yet, but I've never seen that circumstance happen.

Am I missing something about this feat? Is there really a way to catch someone off-guard with the feat that feels like catching them off guard?

Most of these feats have names meant to be catchy, not accurate...

I do think that anytime you use things in a manner unexpected, it could catch them off guard. For example, using a Wand of fireball as a Light Piercing weapon would surprise most enemies, even if they know you've got the wand out and its your only option. They just don't think of the wand as a weapon of it's own.

Regarding the viability of the feat, It's a build thing.

Some classes, like Rogues with Sneak Attack, greatly benefit from their target being flat footed. So it has value there.

Weapon dependent classes, like all the non-monk martial classes, benefit from the Improvised Weapon Penalty being removed, as it means more options in combat. For example, attacking with the unsharpened end of a spear. Now the spear can deal bludgeoning or piercing, as needed.

There are also some nifty improvised weapons out there. I'm especially fond of the Torch, which is a one-handed improvised weapon that deals 1 point of fire damage in addition to its bludgeoning damage. Having a way to deal fire damage without a magic weapon or spell has proved pretty impressive for me. Rules for using the torch like this are actually in the CRB under the torch entry.

Last, the catch off guard feat has valid use in scenarios where the PC is doing something else when attacked. For example, the party needs a hole dug through a wall, so the stronger players are busy digging a hole. Come the surprise round, those stronger players may opt to use their shovels or mining picks as weapons rather than wasting actions to get their normal weapons out. A player without catch off guard, will probably not even consider using the shovel, as the improvised penalties are harsh.

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