Invisible mouser


Rules Questions


I was thinking character concept of Enigma (Mesmerist), Vexing Dodger (Rogue), Mouser (Swashbuckler).

Does she stays invisible while she climbs on opponent's legs and brings him bad luck as she wont make attacks or cast spells?


Invisible or not, what prevents the opponent from feeling her there?


Yeah, no matter what it's absolutely going to feel you there. Might have a hard time hitting you, but the enemy will know something has just climbed up them.


The intent is for it to break invisibility:

from the Magic chapter wrote:
Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone.


Ah, it was a little unclear, but the fact it mentions "hamper" makes me think that the ability is considered an attack for the purposes of breaking Invisibility.


Just skimming the Enigma, but they seem to get virtual Greater Invisibility at level 8, so I guess it doesn't matter after then.


Melkiador wrote:
Just skimming the Enigma, but they seem to get virtual Greater Invisibility at level 8, so I guess it doesn't matter after then.

It wouldn't, but the Op would need to reach character level 10 (with his Enigma, Mouser, Vexing Dodger plan) and 8 of those levels would be Enigma. I'm not sure if that was his plan or not.

At that level, it's common to have methods for defeating Invisibility and even if they didn't the NPC would still feel the character climbing on them. Basically they no longer need to pinpoint the square at that point and can attack with 50% miss chance.

The Concordance

Melkiador wrote:

The intent is for it to break invisibility:

from the Magic chapter wrote:
Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone.

I wouldn't consider entering an opponent's square to be an offensive action. Using the ability isn't an action. It shouldn't break invisibility.


ShieldLawrence wrote:
I wouldn't consider entering an opponent's square to be an offensive action. Using the ability isn't an action. It shouldn't break invisibility.

It's an ability that is an immediate action, and it hampers the subject. I'd expect table variation to skew towards breaking invisibility, but you can try talking it over with your DM.

Edit: It occurs to me you may have been talking about what the Vexing Dodger does instead of the Mouser, but that's a move action, because a climb is done as part of a move action. Also, it involves going against your opponent's Combat Maneuver Defense. The word Defense there implies that you are being offensive when you perform the action.

The Concordance

Melkiador wrote:
ShieldLawrence wrote:
I wouldn't consider entering an opponent's square to be an offensive action. Using the ability isn't an action. It shouldn't break invisibility.
It's an ability that is an immediate action, and it hampers the subject. I'd expect table variation to skew towards breaking invisibility, but you can try talking it over with your DM.

I suppose I'm used to entering an opponent's square for being Tiny, I forgot that's it's an immediate action otherwise for Mouser.


from Invisibility wrote:
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions.
from Climb wrote:
Climbing is part of movement, so it’s generally part of a move action (and may be combined with other types of movement in a move action).

So, entering to target's square and skin aren't attack actions, nor spells. If rule is that any kind of action directed directly against foe is attack, then mesmerist couldn't use even hypnotic stare to give penalties.

Or one would play gnome psychopat... "It is not an enemy. It is a challenging ART project!"


Bunnyboy wrote:
from Invisibility wrote:
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions.

That's just supplemental to the previously mentioned info found in the magic chapter. It's an inclusive and not exclusive rule.

Quote:
from Climb wrote:
Climbing is part of movement, so it’s generally part of a move action (and may be combined with other types of movement in a move action).
So, entering to target's square and skin aren't attack actions, nor spells.

The section from the magic chapter makes it clear that any offensive action is an "attack". The action here is clearly offensive, especially as it targets the combat maneuver defense.

The Concordance

I think it's kind of a reach to say making a climb check against a Climb DC equal to a creature's CMD means it's an attack or an offensive action.

Or else making an acrobatics check against a creature to tumble past or through would also break invisibility.


If you prefer, "While the vexing dodger is on the climbed creature, the creature takes a penalty on attack rolls against the vexing dodger equal to the number of sneak attack dice the dodger possesses."

So, it hampers the target, so it's still an attack.


Melkiador wrote:
So, it hampers the target, so it's still an attack.
from Enigma wrote:

if he takes an action that would end invisibility, it ends his hypnotic stare immediately.

...
For the purpose of bold stare improvements, the enigma's hypnotic stare always has a penalty of –1.

Soo... If Enigma uses his hypnotic stare, it ends his hypnotic stare?


The enigma isn't actually invisible until after he begins the stare.

The Concordance

Melkiador wrote:

If you prefer, "While the vexing dodger is on the climbed creature, the creature takes a penalty on attack rolls against the vexing dodger equal to the number of sneak attack dice the dodger possesses."

So, it hampers the target, so it's still an attack.

If it were a spell that hampered the target, that would be an attack. The effects are not offensive actions, nor hampering spells. They shouldn't break invisibility.


the climb is a combat maneuver check, which is an attack roll. it would break invisibility if you went invisible then climbed on.

The Concordance

BigNorseWolf wrote:
the climb is a combat maneuver check, which is an attack roll. it would break invisibility if you went invisible then climbed on.

Read the ability again. It's a climb check versus a DC equal to their CMD.

Limb Climber wrote:
When adjacent to or in the space of a corporeal creature at least one size category larger than herself, a vexing dodger can climb that creature's body with a successful Climb check against a DC equal to the target creature's CMD. Although the vexing dodger is holding on to the creature, this action isn't a grapple; it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity from the creature, and neither the vexing dodger nor the creature she climbs gains the grappled condition. While the vexing dodger is on the climbed creature, the creature takes a penalty on attack rolls against the vexing dodger equal to the number of sneak attack dice the dodger possesses.

Not an attack roll, not directly hitting CMD. Just a climb check versus a DC equal to their CMD.

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