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So, one thing I hear on these forums a lot is that Paladins are empowered by "the Forces of Law and Good."
What are they? The Forces of Law and Good, that is.
Are they sentient? They seem to be, since they can physically remove the Paladins divine abilities from them as soon as they violate their code of conduct once. If so, does that make these Forces a god? Are they greater than a god? Lesser, since it seems they cannot grant actual Miracles? Can the Gods converse with the Forces of Law and Good?
Is this a Planescape-type deal? If a Paladin believes that they are righteous, they get righteous powers simply because of this belief? But if this is the case, then a Paladin who does evil things but still thinks that they are righteous should retain their divine powers, and a Paladin who is good but who does not believe that they are good should lose said powers. That doesn't happen, so that can't be right.
Are the Forces of Law and Good a power source that one can tap into if one performs the proper rituals? That is, the Code of Conduct provides the necessary frame of mind to tap into a limitless source of Divine Power aligned against Evil and Chaos? If this is the case, then the Forces cannot be said to "choose" a Paladin, since they have no conscious ability to make choices.
What about Antipaladins? Are there forces of Chaos and Evil as well? Do any of the following questions pertain to those Forces. Are Chaos and Evil always aligned against Law and Good? That is, do the Forces of Law and Evil ever collaborate, if such a thing is possible (that is, these Forces are sentient and not mindless)?
Basically, what is the nature of a Paladin's power? That is what I'm curious about.
Seems to me that the "forces of law and good" are ultimately powered by the positive energy plane, which does seem to have some absolute existence and value independent of the various gods who represent it.
This said, discussions over when a paladin should fall from grace become quickly tiresome.
That absolute goodness should have an existence independent of human subjectivity is a question for theological debate. But subjectivity shouldn't be used to justify the existence of a deranged and misguided "paladin" and his powers.
YMMV.
The GM
Seems to me that the "forces of law and good" are ultimately powered by the positive energy plane, which does seem to have some absolute existence and value independent of the various gods who represent it.
That doesn't really work, seeing as how positive energy is what powers all life. That includes demons and devils (who are healed by positive energy the same as a human or elf).
I will admit there is a trend to associate positive energy with good, but that isn't really the case. Positive (And negative) energy is neutral.
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Why does everything need to be heavily defined?
IMO the only real answer is ask your DM or come up with a story that fits your setting, character and DM's idea of the game they want to run.
The forces of law and good and chaos and evil are concepts meant to inspire the imagination and get your creative juices flowing.
So define them for yourselves in your game for your group. And then define them a little different next time.
Not everything needs to be set in concrete and rigidly defined down to Infinitesimal minutiae.
Or perhaps 'the forces of law and good' are of such cosmic scope as to be beyond the ability of a finite mind to perceive and comprehend due to their magnitude and as such even small motes of their existence can empower the truly just and righteous into Paladins?
I don't think there needs to be ONE answer for everyone in Pathfinder. In fact I think there definitely should NOT be one well defined answer so as to not limit folks creativity.
Read the Eternal Champion series by Michael Moorcock especially the Elric of Menibone books. It focuses on Law and Chaos, but that is basically the where the game draws its inspiration from. It’s even listed in the recommended reading from the 1st edition of D&D.
Are they sentient? They seem to be, since they can physically remove the Paladins divine abilities from them as soon as they violate their code of conduct once. If so, does that make these Forces a god? Are they greater than a god? Lesser, since it seems they cannot grant actual Miracles? Can the Gods converse with the Forces of Law and Good?
They are sentient enough that they can grant Miracles, as a cleric could worship "Law" or "Good" and cast Miracle. But, because of this, it means that Battle must also be sentient. That Knowledge itself is sentient.
The problem is that there's a forum post floating around by Paizo's creative director which says that Paladins are powered by their inherent goodness and righteousness but there are plenty of published Paizo sources which suggest a Paladin is powered by a god (the core rulebook description of a Paladin, Gods of the Inner Seas and their details of the codes for paladins of various gods, PFS's Guide To Organized Play which states that in Golarion all Paladins worship gods and all divine magic comes from a god or godlike being).
All said and done - this is a GM's call and fit squarely in the realm of world-building.
The problem is that there's a forum post floating around by Paizo's creative director which says that Paladins are powered by their inherent goodness and righteousness but there are plenty of published Paizo sources which suggest a Paladin is powered by a god (the core rulebook description of a Paladin, Gods of the Inner Seas and their details of the codes for paladins of various gods, PFS's Guide To Organized Play which states that in Golarion all Paladins worship gods and all divine magic comes from a god or godlike being).
All said and done - this is a GM's call and fit squarely in the realm of world-building.
The core rulebook paladin isn't a Golarion paladin. The core rulebook is setting neutral. Specific setting can (and do) change the basic assumptions laid out in the corebook. The same was true in 3.5 D&D - the core rulebook paladin didn't require a deity, while all divine spellcasters (including druids and rangers) required a patron deity in the Forgotten Realms setting. A rulebook published for a specific setting (like Gods of the Inner Sea) has absolutely no bearing on paladins from any other setting or, in this case, generic paladins from the core rulebook.
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As it was said up thread : the GM. To answer your question more specifically, Paladins are powered by what your GM wants them to be powered by in his game.
Jaeraa before me has laid it out quite nicely.
With the core rule book being setting neutral, It allows for customization. People might want their clerics and paladins to get their divine spells from the power of their own belief, or some abstract concept and have no supernatural agency ( god spirit nature etc) involved at all.
Personally I dislike that concept so in games I GM, all divine casters, including paladins get their divine magic from some sort of a divine/profane entity (god spirit etc)
Love. They're powered by love.
Like, good vibes, man.
The core rulebook paladin isn't a Golarion paladin. The core rulebook is setting neutral. Specific setting can (and do) change the basic assumptions laid out in the corebook. The same was true in 3.5 D&D - the core rulebook paladin didn't require a deity, while all divine spellcasters (including druids and rangers) required a patron deity in the Forgotten Realms setting. A rulebook published for a specific setting (like Gods of the Inner Sea) has absolutely no bearing on paladins from any other setting or, in this case, generic paladins from the core rulebook.The problem is that there's a forum post floating around by Paizo's creative director which says that Paladins are powered by their inherent goodness and righteousness but there are plenty of published Paizo sources which suggest a Paladin is powered by a god (the core rulebook description of a Paladin, Gods of the Inner Seas and their details of the codes for paladins of various gods, PFS's Guide To Organized Play which states that in Golarion all Paladins worship gods and all divine magic comes from a god or godlike being).
All said and done - this is a GM's call and fit squarely in the realm of world-building.
Fair enough - Sticking to the core rulebook, it says that paladins serve a diety and are rewarded for their righteousness with their powers.
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Energizer MAX® Batteries...
Food and water like the rest of us...or a ring of sustenance.
Self-Righteousness
The stick up their...
Seriously, I think that it has more to due with their oath. It is that you need a god to sanctify it. This is how certain gods can have their own variation. Although this might be more my own ideas with influence from 5e.
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Fair enough - Sticking to the core rulebook, it says that paladins serve a diety and are rewarded for their righteousness with their powers.
Yes, but it doesn't imply that the deities the paladins serve are also the agents doing the rewarding:
"Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests..."
The deities and the powers are mentioned in different sentences, separated by a reference to the code of conduct.
The CRB also directly states (in the Magic chapter, under Divine Spells) that while "Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces," "the divine forces of law and good power paladin spells." Divine forces in this case appear to be something distinct from deities. In what way they are distinct is somewhat vauge, but I think it's intended to at least leave open the option that these forces are not sentient and that paladin falls result from some sort of alignment metaphysics rather than a conscious judgment.
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Love. They're powered by love.
So every time they spend their powers, they are depleting love from the world?
That's how black magic works, you know? XD
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It is not just their oath, it is the conviction to keep an extreme oath.
Paladins gain power from being in harmony with the extreme of their chosen alignment. Akin to outsiders, they pull power from the idea of good and law.
Each alignment operates like a non-sentient faction. There is real power to be drawn from committing to purity of alignment. Paladin falling is less about a higher up punishing them as much as just straying from that commitment. They fall out of alignment with the power.
Love. They're powered by love.So every time they spend their powers, they are depleting love from the world?
That's how black magic works, you know? XD
You just gotta put more in then you take out, why do you think Paladins depend on charisma and diplomacy and not knowledge of religion. :-D
I'm disappointed you didn't fall for my smurf trap though, well played.
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No idea of the source at this point, but I know somewhere it's written that many divine characters that don't worship a deity still receive their spells from one or more sympathetic divine beings or deities.
I know there's some mention, for instance, in What Lies in Dust that states that there is uncertainty over what deity or deities grant spells to the Order of the Godclaw.
You just gotta put more in then you take out, why do you think Paladins depend on charisma and diplomacy and not knowledge of religion. :-DLove. They're powered by love.So every time they spend their powers, they are depleting love from the world?
That's how black magic works, you know? XD
Divorce ratings are rising... But at least that Belzebub got a well-deserved sword between its eyes! XD
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Is there anything more deserving of pity than a paladin wheezing out...
I've fallen, and I can't get up!
The dim they makes with their pals.
Justice.
Serious Answer: Paladins baseline are powered by the metaphysical force of Law and Good whilst also gaining power from their adherence to their personal code.
In Golarion good gods are also able to sponsor Paladins in which they instead would draw power from them. There is nothing preventing the two types of Paladins to coexist however.
It would be a funny conversation though.
"I am sworn to Iomedae and she grants me the power to seek evil out and destroy it wherever it may hide."
"I admire your fealty to your goddess brother. I am empowered by all that is Righteous to write wrong."
Basically, what is the nature of a Paladin's power? That is what I'm curious about.
It's not really defined in the Core Rulebook.
That means the powers of a paladin spring from forces that are campaign-specific, as determined by the GM. Consequently, you would need to ask your GM about how it works in your campaign.
In my campaign world, all paladins must serve a specific deity, and their powers are an expression of their faith in that deity. (That's how it works for clerics and warpriests as well...)
But your miles may vary.
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Justice.
Serious Answer: Paladins baseline are powered by the metaphysical force of Law and Good whilst also gaining power from their adherence to their personal code.
In Golarion good gods are also able to sponsor Paladins in which they instead would draw power from them. There is nothing preventing the two types of Paladins to coexist however.
It would be a funny conversation though.
"I am sworn to Iomedae and she grants me the power to seek evil out and destroy it wherever it may hide."
"I admire your fealty to your goddess brother. I am empowered by all that is Righteous to write wrong."
My question is what is this metaphysical force? It doesn't seem to do much except empower Paladins. It's never even mentioned except in the context of Paladins!
Is it the same as the material that makes up the body of Lawful Good Outsiders? Does it actively seek out Paladins, or is it sought out? What about one particular code of conduct that crosses cultural, spacial, and planar boundaries allows mortals to use it? ARE mortals using it, or is it more they make a deal with it?
So many questions.
For one thing, the existence of the Chosen One archetype would indicate that the other Paladins seek out the power. That they purposely choose to be a Paladin.
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My question is what is this metaphysical force? It doesn't seem to do much except empower Paladins. It's never even mentioned except in the context of Paladins!
I'm not sure why this seems particularly weird to you. In this game system magic can be powered by
Training to channel words, gestures and bits of matter into arcane forces (wizards etc.)
Deities (clerics etc.)
Your ancestors having contact with just about anything (sorcerers)
Being good at performing?? Nothing at all?? (Bards)
Mysterious concepts (oracles)
Undefined Spirits (shamans)
The Force (psychic magic)
just to name a few.
Given all that, what is the big deal about one group being powered by Honor and Righteousness?
My question is what is this metaphysical force? It doesn't seem to do much except empower Paladins. It's never even mentioned except in the context of Paladins!
Is it the same as the material that makes up the body of Lawful Good Outsiders? Does it actively seek out Paladins, or is it sought out? What about one particular code of conduct that crosses cultural, spacial, and planar boundaries allows mortals to use it? ARE mortals using it, or is it more they make a deal with it?
So many questions.
Well in 3.5 I think there were four great forces - Good, Evil, Chaos and Law. They didn't exactly have conscious minds of their own but constantly influenced multiverse through sheer existence.
They also had champions who ascribed to these forces - good outsiders, evil outsiders, paladins, blackguards, different kinds of gods, etc.
If you were close to one of the forces through some means you could draw power from it.
My question is what is this metaphysical force? It doesn't seem to do much except empower Paladins. It's never even mentioned except in the context of Paladins!I'm not sure why this seems particularly weird to you. In this game system magic can be powered by
Training to channel words, gestures and bits of matter into arcane forces (wizards etc.)
Deities (clerics etc.)
Your ancestors having contact with just about anything (sorcerers)
Being good at performing?? Nothing at all?? (Bards)
Mysterious concepts (oracles)
Undefined Spirits (shamans)
The Force (psychic magic)just to name a few.
Given all that, what is the big deal about one group being powered by Honor and Righteousness?
It seems particularly weird because there's little/no mention of the powers of Chaos and/or Evil. It's not about the many and sundry ways that other classes are powered. It's about consistency, because inconsistency is weird for some of us.
I say this as a fan of cosmic ethical forces.
The undefined force would probably simply be the plane of Good and Law itself: Heaven.
Same thing that grants power to angels and other LG outsiders.
Just as an angel can fall for breaking the Laws of Heaven, so, too, can Heaven's mortal servants.
Also Ultimate Intrique's gray paladins.
Loosening up your conviction to become more flexible but accepting you are going to be able to draw less power from the alignment.
Justice.
Serious Answer: Paladins baseline are powered by the metaphysical force of Law and Good whilst also gaining power from their adherence to their personal code.
In Golarion good gods are also able to sponsor Paladins in which they instead would draw power from them. There is nothing preventing the two types of Paladins to coexist however.
I've seen this argument a few times on the forums yet I'm still not sure what there is to support it. The CRB write up on clerics is more strongly written than paladins explicitly stating that they can get spells from following an ideal but it's been stated multiple times that this isn't how clerics work on Golarian.
In contrast looking at the paladin write up a class feature like Divine Bond is stated to come strictly from the paladin's deity. In a different campaign setting I might be more flexible but to me in Golarion paladins get their powers from gods.
Justice.
Serious Answer: Paladins baseline are powered by the metaphysical force of Law and Good whilst also gaining power from their adherence to their personal code.
In Golarion good gods are also able to sponsor Paladins in which they instead would draw power from them. There is nothing preventing the two types of Paladins to coexist however.
I've seen this argument a few times on the forums yet I'm still not sure what there is to support it. The CRB write up on clerics is more strongly written than paladins explicitly stating that they can get spells from following an ideal but it's been stated multiple times that this isn't how clerics work on Golarian.
I really just consider those two examples editorial fubars that they've never deemed important enough to correct as well as the headache of writing domains for a number of "Virtues and Vices" for conceptual clerics.
That and page keeping is apparently a large driver for a lot of superfluous text. So to maintain a good layout they'll add fluff text which folks usually take way too seriously.
My question is what is this metaphysical force? It doesn't seem to do much except empower Paladins. It's never even mentioned except in the context of Paladins!I'm not sure why this seems particularly weird to you. In this game system magic can be powered by
Training to channel words, gestures and bits of matter into arcane forces (wizards etc.)
Deities (clerics etc.)
Your ancestors having contact with just about anything (sorcerers)
Being good at performing?? Nothing at all?? (Bards)
Mysterious concepts (oracles)
Undefined Spirits (shamans)
The Force (psychic magic)just to name a few.
Given all that, what is the big deal about one group being powered by Honor and Righteousness?
You forgot the biggest ambiguous known force.
Nature?
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In our campaign, we consider Paladins to be avatars of order, chaos, good or evil, with their abilities reflecting those allegiances (i.e. Detect Good, Smite Chaos, etc.). They may or may not choose to align themselves with deities or institutions but that is not where their power originates from.
This means you can have a Chaotic Good person and a Chaotic Evil person both be Paladins of Chaos (for instance)... an example I use is Batman (Chaotic Good) locked in his eternal struggle with the Joker (Chaotic Evil). Both work outside of the law and social convention, both do whatever it takes to achieve their goals, but their Good and Evil natures are clearly polar opposites.
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an example I use is Batman (Chaotic Good)
You're going to get a lot of disagreement about Batman's alignment. It varies by incarnation, but I'd argue that he's usually LG since Lawful doesn't actually mean following the law, it means having a strict code - which he rather obviously does.
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I believe that there is an alignment matrix populated entirely by Batman.
They're powered by the hopes and dreams of children.
To the original question: This goes back to D&D, AD&D, AD&D 2nd Edition, etc. The OLD texts. The Old Testament to our hobby so to speak.
It's a hold out of Gary Gygax's explanation that Law and Chaos (and later Good and Evil) are primal, alive forces that permeate the entire universe, but do not act upon that universe directly. They are sides in an inevitable cosmic conflict.
In other words: It's the force from star wars except there is Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, balance.
Edit: This was also a time when every alignment had it's own language, so take this information with a grain of salt and neckbeard :P
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Is it the same as the material that makes up the body of Lawful Good Outsiders? Does it actively seek out Paladins, or is it sought out? What about one particular code of conduct that crosses cultural, spacial, and planar boundaries allows mortals to use it? ARE mortals using it, or is it more they make a deal with it?
My personal take, which I think is consistent with though not particularly supported by the rules:
1) Yes.
2) Both. It is drawn towards persons who are Lawful and Good, so it can empower a paladin who isn't seeking to become a paladin. But by striving actively to uphold the moral standards of paladin-hood, a person can also attract it. There are probably some other factors that affect who manifests paladin abilities. You may need a lot of faith to effectively channel this divine power, for example, and faith in a deity serves as a good focus. The charisma focus of the class also suggests that a strong sense of self is important.
3) Aside from the restriction against poison, the paladin's code practically a summary of the lawful good alignment: help the innocent (good), punish the wicked (good, maybe lawful), respect authority (lawful), be honourable (lawful). Apparently there's a legacy issue where poison used to be defined as evil and isn't anymore but is still included in the code among other non-LG actions. As a result I personally would treat it as an example of something that's usually considered culturally dishonourable. Deity-specific codes can also be considered specific forms of respecting authority (of the church) and acting with honour (oath-keeping). So really the code is just saying "here is the standards of lawful goodness required to attract/use the divine forces of law and good." In total I don't find the code being applicable across cultures any weirder than alignment being applicable across cultures. Some general moral precepts have physical consequences in the world.
4) Mortals use it, though they may perceive it as making a deal with a deity because metaphysics are confusing.
I've seen this argument a few times on the forums yet I'm still not sure what there is to support it. The CRB write up on clerics is more strongly written than paladins explicitly stating that they can get spells from following an ideal but it's been stated multiple times that this isn't how clerics work on Golarian.
In contrast looking at the paladin write up a class feature like Divine Bond is stated to come strictly from the paladin's deity. In a different campaign setting I might be more flexible but to me in Golarion paladins get their powers from gods.
Are you aware that the guy in charge of Golarion disagrees?