What should I do with my Bard?

[King_Of_The_Crossroads]

I'm playing a leshy Maestro Bard in the Extinction Curse. The DM has informed us that we should be hitting level 5 after next session, and I'm looking for some advice on what to do with my character.

Specifically, I'll be looking to retrain some of my class feats- as I haven't really used most of them-- and pick up an archetype. The thing is, I have no idea what archetype I should be looking at. I'm fairly new to pathfinder 2e, so I'm still getting the hang of the rules.

We are a rather big party. Besides my character, we have a Strix war priest, a Catfolk Ranger with a fire cat animal companion, a Kitsune Genie Sorcerer, a Fleshwarp Monk, and a Halfling Leaf Druid. My character plays support, while the war priest, monk, and animal companion act as tanks.

The basics of my character:

Mike Onyd, Leshy (Changeling) Maestro Bard; Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 18

Class Feats: Lingering Composition (Maestro), Multifarious Muse (Enigma), Bardic Lore, Inspire Competence.

Spells Known

Cantrips- Electric Arc (Virga May), Telekinetic Projectile, Detect Magic, Message, Dancing Lights, Guidance

1st- Sooth (Maestro), Illusory Object, Color Spray, Magic Weapon.

2nd- Invisibility, Summon Fey, Dispel Magic

I am looking to retrain Multifarious Muse and Inspire Competence, since I haven't really used either feats more than once or twice; the sorcerer is a knowledge monkey (fox?) so bardic knowledge combined with my low intelligence are pretty useless.

So,

I'd like to trade those feats in for an archetype of some sort, something to had some spice to my character. What would be a worthwhile archetype to jump into for a mostly support bard?

What are good spell selections for 3rd level spells? 3rd level spells are usually game changers in other editions, but I'm uncertain how important they are in pathfinder 2e.

What should I pick for my 2nd level signature spell? Soothe is my 1st level signature, and it has proven useful, but I don't know about 2nd level.

Thanks all!

[The Raven Black]

I would keep Multifarious Muse but go Polymath instead of Enigma. And grab Esoteric Polymath instead of Inspire Competence.

I will come back for the spells.

Note that, at level 6, you should take Dirge of Doom. Which does not coexist with Inspire Courage. So a Marshal (Inspiring) Dedication might be excellent for an archetype.

[Eoran]

What do you typically do in combat? Where are you positioning yourself? Do you feel like you are contributing to the combat effectively?

Are there any weaknesses of the team that you have noticed? When things go badly, what went wrong?

Answering those types of questions should help lead you to how to improve your effectiveness.

[Castilliano]

IMO Marshal has to stay too close to the gang.

For support, Dispel Magic is a fine Signature spell. It might not be used every day, but when you need it you might need to spam it.

Swap out Magic Weapon since hopefully the warriors have Striking weapons/Handwraps!

Consider Magic Missile; not for normal battles, definitely not for meat machines, but for bosses and incorporeal creatures. It would need to be Signature to remain viable (and worth your actions). What I'd recommend doing is scouting out which Signature spells you're going to want (factoring in the party's other casters too). You might end up wanting Soothe at 2nd level as a Signature spell w/ Magic Missile at 1st (not that you'll necessarily cast it at 1st, but there's likely a better 3rd level spell for Signature). Then again, a 1st level Soothe has use (due to the Will save boost) so you might even take Magic Missile at 2nd as a Signature (despite that +1 level doing nothing) if you'll never cast it at 1st anyway (at least soon you won't).
If not Magic Missile, you will need to find some emergency offensive spell that you do like and you can keep up to snuff.

Your party's interesting since you have Arcane, Primal, Divine, & Occult covered! The Sorcerer will be the one to balance your choices with, since they're stuck w/ their list too. While it's not a bad thing to have two casters spamming Magic Missile against a boss (which at max level can take down a boss in several rounds if the blockers/healers can keep you alive), having two PCs w/ Dispel Magic as a Signature spell is too redundant IMO. Likely they (and the Druid) will be better for the AoE effects and the Warpriest (and again the Druid) for healing (w/ Soothe being an emergency measure or for the Will bonus). That leaves you a lot of space to play! Personally I'd go w/ cool utility or tricks (like illusions) they can't cover and single-target debuffs (like Slow) that have a worthwhile effect even if your enemy saves. IMO your party's too big for personal buffs/defense, yet perfect for group buffs (many which won't be for awhile, like 7th level Haste).
If your Warpriest has a medium Wisdom (alongside later falling behind in proficiency) and your Druid prefers combat spells, you might need to cover condition-removal. I'd investigate this and balance against time factors and availability of NPC resources.

Dirge of Doom is a common recommendation, yet like always check to see if your party's already doing that shtick, in this case applying Frightened consistently. If not, take it since that's a condition party's should be able to apply (plus you have a lot of casters, so that ding to enemy saves matters more than a +1 to attack).

There are too many Archetype options to run through all the good ones though a Caster MCD would work well for some more Cantrips and to expand your skills (assuming that 8 Int kept you from taking all the ones you wanted). Then again, you have so many casters for Cantrips and another Charisma-PC, so maybe not!
Oh, and Reach Spell seems pretty worthwhile IMO. It doesn't seem like you have much of a wall of martials so keeping your distance will often be your best defense (though yes, it does interfere with putting up a Composition so it's iffy for Bards).

[King_Of_The_Crossroads]

Eoran wrote:

What do you typically do in combat? Where are you positioning yourself? Do you feel like you are contributing to the combat effectively?

Are there any weaknesses of the team that you have noticed? When things go badly, what went wrong?

Answering those types of questions should help lead you to how to improve your effectiveness.

I'm usually in the back, buff via inspire courage. Offensively, I switch between using eletric arc, telekinetic projectile, or firing my bow, depending on how many actions I have available.

[King_Of_The_Crossroads]

Castilliano wrote:

IMO Marshal has to stay too close to the gang.

For support, Dispel Magic is a fine Signature spell. It might not be used every day, but when you need it you might need to spam it.

Swap out Magic Weapon since hopefully the warriors have Striking weapons/Handwraps!

Consider Magic Missile; not for normal battles, definitely not for meat machines, but for bosses and incorporeal creatures. It would need to be Signature to remain viable (and worth your actions). What I'd recommend doing is scouting out which Signature spells you're going to want (factoring in the party's other casters too). You might end up wanting Soothe at 2nd level as a Signature spell w/ Magic Missile at 1st (not that you'll necessarily cast it at 1st, but there's likely a better 3rd level spell for Signature). Then again, a 1st level Soothe has use (due to the Will save boost) so you might even take Magic Missile at 2nd as a Signature (despite that +1 level doing nothing) if you'll never cast it at 1st anyway (at least soon you won't).
If not Magic Missile, you will need to find some emergency offensive spell that you do like and you can keep up to snuff.

Your party's interesting since you have Arcane, Primal, Divine, & Occult covered! The Sorcerer will be the one to balance your choices with, since they're stuck w/ their list too. While it's not a bad thing to have two casters spamming Magic Missile against a boss (which at max level can take down a boss in several rounds if the blockers/healers can keep you alive), having two PCs w/ Dispel Magic as a Signature spell is too redundant IMO. Likely they (and the Druid) will be better for the AoE effects and the Warpriest (and again the Druid) for healing (w/ Soothe being an emergency measure or for the Will bonus). That leaves you a lot of space to play! Personally I'd go w/ cool utility or tricks (like illusions) they can't cover and single-target debuffs (like Slow) that have a worthwhile effect even if your enemy saves. IMO your party's too big for personal buffs/defense, yet...

Magic Weapon is something I'll definitely trade out eventually, but so far, we only have one striking rune in the party, so I may need to keep it a little longer.

I agree with you on Dispel Magic as a signature; It has come in handy a couple of times.

[gesalt]

Quote:

Magic Weapon is something I'll definitely trade out eventually, but so far, we only have one striking rune in the party, so I may need to keep it a little longer.

Idk if it's your fellow players or your gm, but given that those items are mandatory for the game math the martials at least better start getting them one way or another. Your first level slots are better spent on things like illusory object given how brutal illusions are in this edition.

For feats, either switch to Multifarious (Enigma) and Esoteric Polymath or go for swashbuckler dedication and basic flair (one for all) and take dirge at 6. Your warpriest can cast bless so there's no reason for them not to provide the melee crew a status bonus.

For 3rd level spells, you have a few good choices. Clairaudience for scouting or spying, slow to neuter bosses or your choice of lower level spell you want heightened or to signature. You can also consider roaring applause since you didn't take hideous laughter for some reason. Dirge obsoletes a large portion of 3rd level debuffs since everything is a status penalty with a save that dirge applies without a save.

For earlier spells, let the cleric and druid deal with healing. You should also ditch color spray or signature it, but I prefer to signature calm emotions for my anti-mook needs. Summoning is also pretty bad but fey has enough decent spellcasting options that it isn't completely miserable. It also would like to be signature though so consider doing so in your 1st or 3rd level slots.

[cavernshark]

gesalt wrote:

Quote:

Magic Weapon is something I'll definitely trade out eventually, but so far, we only have one striking rune in the party, so I may need to keep it a little longer.

Idk if it's your fellow players or your gm, but given that those items are mandatory for the game math the martials at least better start getting them one way or another. Your first level slots are better spent on things like illusory object given how brutal illusions are in this edition.

For feats, either switch to Multifarious (Enigma) and Esoteric Polymath or go for swashbuckler dedication and basic flair (one for all) and take dirge at 6. Your warpriest can cast bless so there's no reason for them not to provide the melee crew a status bonus.

For 3rd level spells, you have a few good choices. Clairaudience for scouting or spying, slow to neuter bosses or your choice of lower level spell you want heightened or to signature. You can also consider roaring applause since you didn't take hideous laughter for some reason. Dirge obsoletes a large portion of 3rd level debuffs since everything is a status penalty with a save that dirge applies without a save.

For earlier spells, let the cleric and druid deal with healing. You should also ditch color spray or signature it, but I prefer to signature calm emotions for my anti-mook needs. Summoning is also pretty bad but fey has enough decent spellcasting options that it isn't completely miserable. It also would like to be signature though so consider doing so in your 1st or 3rd level slots.

EC book 1 is pretty sparse on striking runes. It does correct itself, but I completely believe that magic weapon is still getting mileage in that AP, especially with a party this size.

For archetypes, I'd usually recommend something with an animal companion (like Beastmaster or Cavalier) for you to ride around on but you've got such a crowded party already with 6 + an AC that it may not be good to pack more in. Blessed One for lay on hands and some condition removal with subsequent feats is also a pretty handy add-on. edit: Also consider Spell Trickster from LO: Grand Bazaar. You could add some neat effects to some of your cantrips. Light and Summon Instrument have some cool effects if you retrained a few of yours. Most of the later spells affected are arcane/primal, but feats for Vampiric Touch and Black Tentacles could fill in feats you don't want from Bard.

The multifarious muse (polymath) and esoteric polymath is a good recommendation. I have a polymath bard and it's really crazy how much that flexible signature spell or spell known adds to your daily versatility.

For spells:
Dispel is a good enough signature, but in practice you're only going to really want to cast it at your highest or second highest level slots since most effects hitting you are going to be at or above level. I'd probably keep it in your second highest slot and pick a different signature. Summon Fey will be similar if you like doing that a lot.

I'd look at grabbing Biting Words as a signature. A single cast will give you 3 rounds of blasting for a single action which can be a good filler. If you do summon a lot and don't mind the slightly evil implications, you could also look at Final Sacrifice as a signature spell to use on any of your summons after they're almost dead/used their spells/or are proving ineffective. It hits with the strength of a fireball 1 level above the slot it's coming from so even burning a lower level slot on it can be a nice way to finish up an encounter.

In your level 3 slots: slow and haste are stars; I'd probably grab slow with that party if no one else has it since denying an enemy even 1 action is going to compound a lot more than adding 1 to your team of 6. Even better though might be Roaring Applause -- kind of a stronger hideous laughter, especially if you've got people with attacks of opportunity in the party. Heightened Fear (3rd) is a strong pickup to target large groups and get frightened on them all if you don't go Dirge of Doom.

[Eoran]

King_Of_The_Crossroads wrote:

Eoran wrote:

What do you typically do in combat? Where are you positioning yourself? Do you feel like you are contributing to the combat effectively?

Are there any weaknesses of the team that you have noticed? When things go badly, what went wrong?

Answering those types of questions should help lead you to how to improve your effectiveness.

I'm usually in the back, buff via inspire courage. Offensively, I switch between using eletric arc, telekinetic projectile, or firing my bow, depending on how many actions I have available.

OK. Approximately the same role that I fill then.

For improving bow usage, I have occasionally looked at Ranger archetype and specifically Hunted Shot. Two arrows for one action looks really tempting. Not tempting enough for me though. I don't have the class feat slots for a dedication.

[Burntgerb]

Nearly 13th-level bard in Age of Ashes here - and playing a 2e bard has been a great time - but not without quite a bit of homework.

I've been playing an polymath / maestro bard - and I'll give you a few things I've learned.

Lingering composition from Maestro is huge for me. 3 or 4 rounds of Dirge of Doom without having to use a action on subsequent turns gives me the option to cast spells and move on those other turns.

At levels 3-7 I got a lot of mileage from heightened fear until I tried using Calm Emotions as my level 3 signature - and that thing **STILL** ends encounters when I cast it from a 5th or 6th level slot. It's incredible and I can't recommend it enough.
Fear also conflicted with Dirge of Doom once I got it - so keep that in mind.

Your hunch is correct regarding knowledge and bards - I haven't found that there's enough impetus to make bard knowledge worth pursuing. It is a lot of effort and feat tax and very little payoff. Combat reading has proven better to me - it all keys off of occultism and it tells me the important stuff. (I think a flaw in the system was that knowledge was intended to be necessary, but it's seldom better than metagaming/guessing and often worthless - but that's a whole other thread.)

You're definitely going to get more mileage from doing buffs/debuffs and battlefield control. I'd say to keep Magic Weapon on 1st or 2nd sig for the time being and consider something like Calm Emotions as a signature also - it's worth the sustain. Also, don't scoff at the power of illusions in this edition. They're definitely worth having in the arsenal.

At 12th, my first three levels of spells are these:

(1)
Lose the Path
Liberating Command
Magic Missile
Soothe(S)

(2)
Faerie Fire
Illusory Object
Dispel Magic (S)

(3)
Calm Emotions (S)
Time Jump
Slow

You'll find that in time you'll need to repurpose your lower level spells for general utility - and the Esoteric Polymath feat chain has been a huge time saver there. As the party gets access to funds, you'll have the ability to grab some scrolls. Don't be afraid to grab one or two of the niche utility spells in case you need them. By time you're out of them, you'll like be richer and in the next town over.

Reading the Bard guides has helped me some - but I've found at points, there were places where our experience differs. Definitely check them out - if not for anything else other than a sense of planning how your character will develop.

[The Raven Black]

I am playing a 6th level PFS Bard and I agree completely with the excellent post above.

Note : I took a Battle Oracle dedication to give my fellow PCs increased Init and temp HPs, but it really makes you vastly more fragile, so I would not really recommend it.

[Burntgerb]

I should clarify that at 4-6th levels you're probably not going to need Faerie Fire or Liberating Command, but they're definitely handy for later on.

Additionally, Magic Missile is my Esoteric Polymath extra daily signature spell - so I could cast it from every slot at every level in a pinch.

If you get a chance to get a Staff of Divination (lvl 6), consider doing so - it's effectively extra spells per day - particularly for true strike. True Striking with Telekinetic Projectile or Biting Words on a frightened enemy often work out well for me when I'm feeling lucky. (I plan on getting Chromatic Ray (4th) next time I'm shopping so I can fish for those sweet crits). This will become a much better strategy at 9th when you get access to one of the best spell in all of occultism, Synesthesia.

[King_Of_The_Crossroads]

Burntgerb wrote:

I should clarify that at 4-6th levels you're probably not going to need Faerie Fire or Liberating Command, but they're definitely handy for later on.

Additionally, Magic Missile is my Esoteric Polymath extra daily signature spell - so I could cast it from every slot at every level in a pinch.

Faerie Fire is definitely one I want to get in scroll form; not useful very often, but when you need it, you need it.

I'm considering magic missile, but also phantom pain. I've heard it can be pretty strong if enemies fail their save.

[The Raven Black]

Be careful that some enemies are immune to Mental. Better to have a few non-Mental spells for such cases.

[King_Of_The_Crossroads]

gesalt wrote:

Your first level slots are better spent on things like illusory object given how brutal illusions are in this edition.

I've seen this suggested a few times, but am a bit clueless about illusions for this edition. Can you can explain?

My past experience with illusions is from previous editions of the game, and I tended to avoid using them, because there was always a conflict between how the DM and player interpreted the effect.

Has that changed in pathfinder 2e?

[Burntgerb]

AFAIK, all illusions are automatically believed as real by default until the viewers interact with it in some fashion (usually by spending seek or other actions vs a spell DC.)

Illusions

[gesalt]

King_Of_The_Crossroads wrote:

gesalt wrote:

Your first level slots are better spent on things like illusory object given how brutal illusions are in this edition.

I've seen this suggested a few times, but am a bit clueless about illusions for this edition. Can you can explain?

My past experience with illusions is from previous editions of the game, and I tended to avoid using them, because there was always a conflict between how the DM and player interpreted the effect.

Has that changed in pathfinder 2e?

As Burntgerb mentioned, illusions don't get a save without spending an action. This can pretty easily be used to set up no save action denial, cover and whatever else.

Illusory object is also horrifyingly versatile given that the example given is a waterfall of all things. It also doesn't have the mental tag so it doesn't get blocked by mental immunity.

Eventually, things will auto save through it with passive true sight or something, but by the time that's a regular occurrence you have access to upper spells to handle things.

[Eoran]

gesalt wrote:

Illusory object is also horrifyingly versatile given that the example given is a waterfall of all things. It also doesn't have the mental tag so it doesn't get blocked by mental immunity.

I wonder what would happen if a Monk tried to Water Step Wall Run up an illusory waterfall. I can't imagine that it would work since no matter how firmly the monk believed the waterfall to be real, it isn't - and therefore can't actually support the monk's weight. On the other hand, a real waterfall can't usually support a creature's weight. So perhaps a firm belief and conviction that it will work is all that is required.

I may have to experiment with this a bit.

[King_Of_The_Crossroads]

gesalt wrote:

King_Of_The_Crossroads wrote:

gesalt wrote:

Your first level slots are better spent on things like illusory object given how brutal illusions are in this edition.

I've seen this suggested a few times, but am a bit clueless about illusions for this edition. Can you can explain?

My past experience with illusions is from previous editions of the game, and I tended to avoid using them, because there was always a conflict between how the DM and player interpreted the effect.

Has that changed in pathfinder 2e?

As Burntgerb mentioned, illusions don't get a save without spending an action. This can pretty easily be used to set up no save action denial, cover and whatever else.

Illusory object is also horrifyingly versatile given that the example given is a waterfall of all things. It also doesn't have the mental tag so it doesn't get blocked by mental immunity.

Eventually, things will auto save through it with passive true sight or something, but by the time that's a regular occurrence you have access to upper spells to handle things.

Oh wow, that is pretty different. So now the standard is that the targets believe the illusion is real and have to spend actions seeing through it.

Okay, I can see the possibilities. I'm not good with illusions, but I will definitely be working on that.