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For example, the fast healing granted by a Spelleater Bloodrager's Blood of Life ability.
Taken from the PRD,
Blood of Life (Su): A spelleater's blood empowers him to slowly recover from his wounds. At 2nd level, while bloodraging, a spelleater gains fast healing 1 (Bestiary 300). At 7th level and every 3 levels thereafter, this increases by 1 (to a maximum of fast healing 6 at 19th level). Additionally, if the spelleater gains an increase to damage reduction from a bloodline, feat, or other ability, he is considered to have an effective damage reduction of 0, and the increase is added to this effective damage reduction. This ability replaces uncanny dodge and damage reduction.
Fast Healing (Ex) A creature with fast healing regains hit points at an exceptional rate, usually 1 or more hit points per round, as given in the creature's entry. Except where noted here, fast healing is just like natural healing. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. Unless otherwise stated, it does not allow lost body parts to be reattached. Fast healing continues to function (even at negative hit points) until a creature dies, at which point the effects of fast healing end immediately. Format: fast healing 5; Location: hp.
Would the Spelleater's fast healing be Ex or Su?
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Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Extraordinary abilities are unusual abilities that do not rely on magic to function.
So, if you are relying on magic for the ability to function, then it can't be extraordinary.
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Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Extraordinary abilities are unusual abilities that do not rely on magic to function.So, if you are relying on magic for the ability to function, then it can't be extraordinary.
That's the interpretation I go with, but I've seen enough disagreement on the subject I felt a FaQ was warranted for clarification finally.
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Maybe one step removed, but there are bloodrage powers that are specificly called out as EX, but only activate during bloodrage, a SU ability.
Maybe one step removed, but there are bloodrage powers that are specificly called out as EX, but only activate during bloodrage, a SU ability.
Having trouble finding one. All of the Ex abilities seem to be usable out of bloodrage.
Edit: Draconic seems to have one. But that could just as easily be an error than proof of anything.
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Maybe one step removed, but there are bloodrage powers that are specificly called out as EX, but only activate during bloodrage, a SU ability.Having trouble finding one. All of the Ex abilities seem to be usable out of bloodrage.
Edit: Draconic seems to have one. But that could just as easily be an error than proof of anything.
I think Java might have meant Bloodline Abilties.
I was talking about bloodline abilities. Other than the energy resistances, the rest that are Ex also specify they can be used out of bloodrage.
I guess this raises the question of whether or not those are available out of bloodrage. As, Ex abilities they can't rely on magic, so must always be available.
But being Ex could qualify as specifying otherwise. There are lots of FAQs about what is enough to qualify as "specifies otherwise". For instance, does a supernatural ability that works as a spell activate as a standard action or at the casting time of that spell? Is working as the spell enough to "specify otherwise" with regards to the activation time?
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right. and if bloodrage is Su and you can't use those other abilities outside a bloodrage then them being Ex means nothing since they'd be ended by any effect that ends a Su ability like an antimagic field.
I highly believe it to be a SU ability and magical in nature. It would be labeled EX if it was meant to be EX.
Yes, arguing intent, why would it be a Su ability if it wasn't intended to be Su?
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But being Ex could qualify as specifying otherwise. There are lots of FAQs about what is enough to qualify as "specifies otherwise". For instance, does a supernatural ability that works as a spell activate as a standard action or at the casting time of that spell? Is working as the spell enough to "specify otherwise" with regards to the activation time?
Hmm, touché.
yeah, re: OP, blood of life is definitely giving you a Su version of what is normally an Ex ability. i'm just not convinced Ex bloodline abilities can't be used outside a bloodrage. it defeats the purpose of labelling them Ex since they're subject to all the same limitations as bloodrage by virtue of such a dependence.
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yeah, re: OP, blood of life is definitely giving you a Su version of what is normally an Ex ability. i'm just not convinced Ex bloodline abilities can't be used outside a bloodrage. it defeats the purpose of labelling them Ex since they're subject to all the same limitations as bloodrage by virtue of such a dependence.
Yeah, and I agree pretty much 95%, but that last 5% is bugging me now :3
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I'm still confused about fast healing provided by a magic item. The definitions of natural healing and magical healing seem to say natural healing is long periods of rest, and anything else restoring hp damage is magical healing. Fast healing as an ability says it functions like natural healing (aside from some exceptions specific to it) without really explaining the as natural healing part. To me that suggests that the fast healing amount increases when under long term care of a healer or taking a long rest (24 hours+ in bed, resting)... which seems odd, as unless its a very slow fast healing, even a god would be back to full hp from staggered in less than one night's rest. Fast healing is an ex ability, but though it says it works as natural healing, it doesn't fit the definition, which would put it in the magical healing category, except that it's not because its ex. But then there is a magic item that gives fast healing, which would make it magical healing? Its confusing on the whole, like they decided 'ok we're going to give you magical healing, and call it non-magic. Even though its magic, we'll just say its not.' It certainly seems like the duck test applies...
Not entirely sure of the question.
If you're questioning whether the Bloodrager ability is SU, then there's no point, because the ability has the SU descriptor.
If you're questioning whether the Bloodrager ability is EX, then there's still no point, because simply referencing Fast Healing doesn't mean that it has the same descriptors as that ability, and even then, you have the specific SU descriptor trumping the general EX descriptor that applies on otherwise generalized Fast Healing.
Bump for More FAQ Tagging. The Community would love a real ruling on this and clarification.
I'd rule it as an SU effect that causes an EX effect to occur.
Cast a summon spell, to bring a creature that can lay on hands (SU).
No conceptual difference.
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I'd rule it as an SU effect that causes an EX effect to occur.
Cast a summon spell, to bring a creature that can lay on hands (SU).
No conceptual difference.
No, that's big difference cause you're not using the lay on hands, a creature you summoned is.
In this we're talking about an ability that specifically and immediately gives you another ability.
The wording on the specific ability trumps the general case. Infernal Healing grants fast healing, but it is a spell. You can use Dispel Magic to try and stop it for example.
Unless it was an error in the text, I'd just go with the (Su) designation on the Blood of Life description. Fast Healing may be (Ex) for most monsters, but it's specifically called out as (Su) for the spelleater bloodrager.
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Unless it was an error in the text, I'd just go with the (Su) designation on the Blood of Life description. Fast Healing may be (Ex) for most monsters, but it's specifically called out as (Su) for the spelleater bloodrager.
No, The blood of life ability is an SU that grants Fast healing. Nothing about that is saying the fast healing is an SU.
Just like infernal healing, It's a spell that is granting fast healing and not a Spell version of fast healing.It's just like if there was an SU ability (like wildshape) that granted you wings and then you use the wings to fly. The flight you're doing is EX flight with the wings. You're not doing magical flight, though in an anti-magic the SU would shut off and thus you'd stop flying, not that they flight was magical, but because the source of the source of your flight went away.
Similar with the spell, cast dispel magic and you're not getting rid of the healing, you're getting rid of the spell that is granting fast healing to the person.
I'd rule it as an SU effect that causes an EX effect to occur.
This is my vote.
Unless it was an error in the text, I'd just go with the (Su) designation on the Blood of Life description. Fast Healing may be (Ex) for most monsters, but it's specifically called out as (Su) for the spelleater bloodrager.No, The blood of life ability is an SU that grants Fast healing. Nothing about that is saying the fast healing is an SU.
Just like infernal healing, It's a spell that is granting fast healing and not a Spell version of fast healing.It's just like if there was an SU ability (like wildshape) that granted you wings and then you use the wings to fly. The flight you're doing is EX flight with the wings. You're not doing magical flight, though in an anti-magic the SU would shut off and thus you'd stop flying, not that they flight was magical, but because the source of the source of your flight went away.
Similar with the spell, cast dispel magic and you're not getting rid of the healing, you're getting rid of the spell that is granting fast healing to the person.
Yep, this says it better. +1
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Unless it was an error in the text, I'd just go with the (Su) designation on the Blood of Life description. Fast Healing may be (Ex) for most monsters, but it's specifically called out as (Su) for the spelleater bloodrager.No, The blood of life ability is an SU that grants Fast healing. Nothing about that is saying the fast healing is an SU.
Just like infernal healing, It's a spell that is granting fast healing and not a Spell version of fast healing.It's just like if there was an SU ability (like wildshape) that granted you wings and then you use the wings to fly. The flight you're doing is EX flight with the wings. You're not doing magical flight, though in an anti-magic the SU would shut off and thus you'd stop flying, not that they flight was magical, but because the source of the source of your flight went away.
Similar with the spell, cast dispel magic and you're not getting rid of the healing, you're getting rid of the spell that is granting fast healing to the person.
The thing is though there's no additional steps or addons, it's just SU Fast Healing, not a SU ability granting something else that grants Fast Healing, the ability's whole thing is you have x amount of Fast Healing.
Your Wild Shape example the flying may be Ex but the wings you are using were granted by a Su ability.
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Unless it was an error in the text, I'd just go with the (Su) designation on the Blood of Life description. Fast Healing may be (Ex) for most monsters, but it's specifically called out as (Su) for the spelleater bloodrager.No, The blood of life ability is an SU that grants Fast healing. Nothing about that is saying the fast healing is an SU.
Just like infernal healing, It's a spell that is granting fast healing and not a Spell version of fast healing.It's just like if there was an SU ability (like wildshape) that granted you wings and then you use the wings to fly. The flight you're doing is EX flight with the wings. You're not doing magical flight, though in an anti-magic the SU would shut off and thus you'd stop flying, not that they flight was magical, but because the source of the source of your flight went away.
Similar with the spell, cast dispel magic and you're not getting rid of the healing, you're getting rid of the spell that is granting fast healing to the person.
Those strike me as pointless distinctions. If the wings go away in an antimagic field, the fact that the flight might have been Extraordinary and derived from the wings is moot. They're gone and therefore so is the flight. Same with infernal healing - the spell that grants the healing power is gone, so's the healing power - and the same with Blood of Life.
If there's no difference in the end result, what's the point of making the claim that the fast healing granted by blood of life is extraordinary rather than supernatural?
Unless it was an error in the text, I'd just go with the (Su) designation on the Blood of Life description. Fast Healing may be (Ex) for most monsters, but it's specifically called out as (Su) for the spelleater bloodrager.No, The blood of life ability is an SU that grants Fast healing. Nothing about that is saying the fast healing is an SU.
Just like infernal healing, It's a spell that is granting fast healing and not a Spell version of fast healing.It's just like if there was an SU ability (like wildshape) that granted you wings and then you use the wings to fly. The flight you're doing is EX flight with the wings. You're not doing magical flight, though in an anti-magic the SU would shut off and thus you'd stop flying, not that they flight was magical, but because the source of the source of your flight went away.
Similar with the spell, cast dispel magic and you're not getting rid of the healing, you're getting rid of the spell that is granting fast healing to the person.
Those strike me as pointless distinctions. If the wings go away in an antimagic field, the fact that the flight might have been Extraordinary and derived from the wings is moot. They're gone and therefore so is the flight. Same with infernal healing - the spell that grants the healing power is gone, so's the healing power - and the same with Blood of Life.
If there's no difference in the end result, what's the point of making the claim that the fast healing granted by blood of life is extraordinary rather than supernatural?
The difference is that there are rules that come into effect or not depending on type. Like winged flight needs to make more fly checks than magical flight does (like if there's a collision). And how it interacts with stuff that grants additional healing from magical healing.
The thing is though there's no additional steps or addons, it's just SU Fast Healing, not a SU ability granting something else that grants Fast Healing, the ability's whole thing is you have x amount of Fast Healing.
Your Wild Shape example the flying may be Ex but the wings you are using were granted by a Su ability.
I think the point is that the ability grants "no additional steps or addons" so it defaults to the normal usage, which is EX.
The ability that grants an ability doesn't alter the second ability as far as I know. That druid doesn't get to fly without flapping it's wings because it's from a SU ability; it just works as the normal EX ability.
Unless it was an error in the text, I'd just go with the (Su) designation on the Blood of Life description. Fast Healing may be (Ex) for most monsters, but it's specifically called out as (Su) for the spelleater bloodrager.No, The blood of life ability is an SU that grants Fast healing. Nothing about that is saying the fast healing is an SU.
Just like infernal healing, It's a spell that is granting fast healing and not a Spell version of fast healing.It's just like if there was an SU ability (like wildshape) that granted you wings and then you use the wings to fly. The flight you're doing is EX flight with the wings. You're not doing magical flight, though in an anti-magic the SU would shut off and thus you'd stop flying, not that they flight was magical, but because the source of the source of your flight went away.
Similar with the spell, cast dispel magic and you're not getting rid of the healing, you're getting rid of the spell that is granting fast healing to the person.
The thing is though there's no additional steps or addons, it's just SU Fast Healing, not a SU ability granting something else that grants Fast Healing, the ability's whole thing is you have x amount of Fast Healing.
Your Wild Shape example the flying may be Ex but the wings you are using were granted by a Su ability.
No, if it was SU fast healing it would be
Fast Healing (Su): The bloodrager while raging heals 1 point of damage per round, just like via natural healing.Similar to the wording we find in the eidolon evolutions
What we have is
BLOOD OF LIFE (su)
"At 2nd level, while bloodraging a spelleater gains fast healing 1."
Very similar to
Dragon Wings (su)
At 12th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to have leathery wings grow from your back, giving you a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability.
Both are SU's that activate while raging to give you access to an EX power. Blood of Life SU is granting you the fast healing EX which heals you X per round
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The example you gave further's my statement, though I'm pretty sure this is a case of something to Person A is obviously A and to Person B is obviously B.
Blood of life grants Fast Healing.
Dragon Wings grants wings, which grant flight.
To me the first one is a supernatural ability and the second is a supernatural ability that grants an extraordinary ability.
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The example you gave further's my statement, though I'm pretty sure this is a case of something to Person A is obviously A and to Person B is obviously B.
Blood of life grants Fast Healing.
Dragon Wings grants wings, which grant flight.
To me the first one is a supernatural ability and the second is a supernatural ability that grants an extraordinary ability.
Blood of life(su) grants Fast Healing(ex), which heals you. Since healing comes from EX it's not magical healing.
Dragon Wings(su) grants wings(ex), which grant flight. Since flight comes from EX it's not magical flight.
There, that's the piece you're missing.
Rysky: I don't see a meaningful difference between Blood of life and Dragon Wings.
EDIT: ninja'd by chess pwn. Said more but no reason now. ;)
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Um, no.
Blood of life gives you Fast Healing, that’s the ability.
Dragon Wings gives you wings, which gives you flight.
For contrast, Blood of Life gives you Fast Healing which would be (Su).
Wild Shaping* into a form that gives Fast Healing/Regeneration which would be (Ex)
I think Giant Druid > Troll is popular.
I see a distinction to be made. It is as easy as counting the verbs in the descriptions.
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I see the Fast Healing granted by BoL as Su. And I see the wings granted by Dragon Wings as Su. But the flight granted by those wings as Ex.Rysky: I don't see a meaningful difference between Blood of life and Dragon Wings.
EDIT: ninja'd by chess pwn. Said more but no reason now. ;)
Why would the wings be Su? You get mundane wings not magic wings of force/magic. The magic is in the transformation not the end result. A supernatural effect that grants you claws doesn't make them magic/supernatural. I'm not seeing the step you are: the wings/flight are the same thing IMO, the Ex result of the Su ability: mundane wings that grant mundane flight.
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Specific beats general. If a normally (ex) ability is labelled as (su) then that specific version is (su).
An abilities type should carry forward to all of the abilities it grants unless stated otherwise. Otherwise you are just guessing.
In an AMF both the wings and the fast healing shut down.
The wings may do mundane things but they are magic and get stopped by things that stop magic.
The transformation is stopped by magic, not the wings. I cast a spell and gain the alertness feat, the feat doesn't become magic: it's still an Ex ability.
Lets ask this way: if I use a spell/SLA to change shape and gain wings, can someone dispel JUST my wings as, by your suggestion, those wings are a spell/SLA and not mundane abilities?
Abilities type should carry forward to all of the abilities it grants unless stated otherwise. Otherwise you are just guessing.
Do you have any proof or evidence for this stance?
The evidence of my argument is that Fast healing is labeled as an EX ability, and nothing in the rules state that a magical sources causes all effects of that effect to be magical as well.Because under this ruling the blood of dragons granting wings which grants a fly speed is magical flight since the original source was a SU ability.
So the two views are both just guessing because there's no clarifications.
View one is guessing that things are what they say they are by default unless something specific changes that.
View two is guessing that they can extrapolate the original source to all effects that it grants.
To me the first is following the principle that unless it says you can, you can't. Unless it says that the fast healing is magical it isn't, it's the default.
And to me the second just sounds like wishful thinking that doesn't have any support to back it (hence the request for some if there is that I'm unaware of).
But we can't PROVE either is correct because we don't have enough rules/clarifications to do so.