Hi, off on another tangent again.
I'm deliberating on creating a fairy tale-like setting. I am having some issues with races and classes.
Fairy tale dwarves are nothing like the typical fantasy dwarf (gruff, drunk craftsfolk)
Halflings as "little people" might be an option but their agility needs to be nerfed.
Elves are the least difficult non-human race to insert I think.
Also as far as classes are concerned I've seen the following archetypes:
Knight, Trickster, Hunter, Sorcerer/Wizard, Evil Witch, Evil King/Warlord, Peasant Hero, Fool
So a knight might be exemplified by a cavalier or paladin I suppose but the spellcasting paladins seem inappropriate.
A trickster is obviously some sort of rogue.
Hunter could be a ranger (again minus spells), hunter's tricks (from the skirmisher archetype) might work there.
Magic is tricky. Most fairy tales equate magic with evil. I'm not sure how to get passed that trope.
Peasant hero and fool elude me.
Evil witch is a no-brainer.
Any thoughts? Suggestions? I have Grimm but other than setting, the classes in that book are geared toward children not traditional fairy tale characters.
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I read Grimm's many, many times as a kid in multiple books, and I agree that a dwarf in fairy tales doesn't match up very well with dwarves in RPGs. So perhaps you eliminate the current dwarf, halfling, and gnome. Then create two new small-sized races called dwarf and gnome to replace them. One lives in hills, the other lives in forest, for example. Shuffle around a couple of the racial traits you like and then add some new ones you think will fit in.
I would advise against allowing a very limited list of acceptable classes. If there are a few classes you want to ban (such as the gunslinger), then ban those specifically. The archetypes you speak of certainly exist in fairy tales and in other stories, but they should be utilized for role-playing purposes - not to determine what character class you play.
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There's also some things you might want to add that Pathfinder doesn't have.
For instance, fairy tales are rife with talking animals. How humanoid they are tends to vary by tale, but they at least seem to be able to build houses ("The Three Little Pigs" [TLP]), capable of cooking (TLP, "Goldilocks and the Three Bears" [GTB]), able to buy from humans ("The Wolf and the Seven Young Goats" [WSYG], TLP), and disguises (particularly the Wolf in TLP, WSYG, and "Little Red Riding Hood" [LRRH]. They are often shown wearing human-like clothing in illustrations too.
At the very least talking animals can probably do something like the Hegeyokai do sans looking human.
Trolls and giants are sometimes mentioned too, though fairy tale trolls are a good bit different than Pathfinder ones. I might even suggest for Elves that you make them the Fey type rather than humanoid.
It could be some cross between Gnomes and Dwarves could work here.
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Well Talkies considered his stories fairy tales but I understand where you are coming from. I think the real issue would be presentation. I mean Snow Whites dwarves were hard working miners. So the real task is to set the tone of the stories in the trope you want to tell. Gnomes should be something like Christmas elves or the shoemakers elves. Drop halflings make sprites or pixie playable. If you look around for Narnia campaigns you will find a number of people who have already dine some work on animals as playable races as well as satyr and fawns as races. Depending on the type of fairy tale you want.
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Perhaps since it is a fairy tale world, awakened animals are much more common. Not common, but a professional woodsman is likely to know at least a few.
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We could really use a template that can be added to animals, beasts and the such which just makes them smart and capable of speech. So mostly like awaken, but there are magical beasts who might have something to say too.
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All very good advice. I can agree on some points that class variety is important. But I've never seen or read about monks or clerics in fairytales. Gunslingers are also a no go in my opinion.
Alchemists with bombs seems wrong. Barbarian rage seems like an enemy trait not a heroic one in this setting. I love the idea of bards but they come off a cheese with magic as part if their special abilities. Fighters are fine. Rangers are great minus spellcasting. Druid special abolities are fitting but the fluff and name doesn't seem right. Wizards seem more appropriate than sorcerers. Oracles seem best as NPCs. Swashbucklers are great. Slayers, & bloodragers again feel like NPCS or villains. I could go on and on.
Talking animals are a staple yes and Narnia was the first thing I thought of regarding that idea.
Giants are mostly like sophisticated hill giants. Trolls and ogres seem interchangeable. Goblins are drag & drop as is.
But you've all given me lots to think about. Thanks!
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So to be fair, bard is probably the BEST character option as it is. I'm not a fan of big explosive magic for the setting though. (Personal bias).
And when I mentioned Grimm before I was talking about the d20 setting not the collected works of the brothers.
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What I think should be included:
A big bad: Evil Queen/King/Warlord/Wizard.
Big bad's minions: human or low level monster such as goblins
One major dragon
An enchanted forest: My idea includes it being dotted with ancient ruins and an intelligent undead skeleton living there named Old Brown Bones (mossy, can influence swarms of insects). Not necessarily a villain but not trustworthy.)
A central castle where a good queen/king lives
Fey and animals with a woodling type template (making them plant or half plant creatures that still look like animals)
Intelligent/talking animals
An intelligent talking item: shield/sword
A knightly order
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The grimm's tales edited to reflect a time more chivalrous then actually was. I don't think it would be terrible to stretch what the perception of the fairy tale world some. Then again, Pathfinder might not be the best system for it.
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I think you just have to work with the players on this. Fairy Tales are all about the right attitude and perspective. Characters in fairy tales often act in stereotypical and/or archetypical manners that often act counter min/max or optimal outcomes.
There is often a lot of repetition that works well in a story, but might get boring in a game, such as trying 3 types of porridge, destroying 3 types of pig houses, eating 3 types of Billy Goats Gruff, etc.
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True. I am hoping to have a setting that includes tropes and archetypes. Attitude us absolutely important & I think a big concern is presenting this to jaded players who will try to manipulate the setting and circumstances rather than playing into it.
A certain amount if purity/innocence is needed I think. There are certain qualities with antiheroes and a grim attitude that are appropriate but too much can destroy the mood. Similar to how horror offered in role playing can miss it's mark by players who aren't embodying their characters.
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Following what SmiloDan said, I'd start with getting my players opinion about the whole idea - if they won't accept the premise of the fairy-tale convention and play along, your project will be doomed to remain a purely intellectual exercise. And even if they voice acceptance of playing in such setting then you might discover that their vision of the fairy-tales is different than yours. Just be ready for that.
Fairy tales have their internal logic but that internal logic is often (but not always) at odds with ideas of pragmatism, efficiency, and sensibilities of modern people.
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Following what SmiloDan said, I'd start with getting my players opinion about the whole idea - if they won't accept the premise of the fairy-tale convention and play along, your project will be doomed to remain a purely intellectual exercise. And even if they voice acceptance of playing in such setting then you might discover that their vision of the fairy-tales is different than yours. Just be ready for that.
Fairy tales have their internal logic but that internal logic is often (but not always) at odds with ideas of pragmatism, efficiency, and sensibilities of modern people.
I respect that. You're warning is a good one. I also love the last line. I find fairy tales and mythology often counter modern sensibilities and logic. I suppose it takes a unique mindset to get into those kind of subjects from a role playing perspective.
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It might also be worth having a look at Propp's Functions of Folktales (the link is to the TV Tropes version of it, but if you're more academically inclined, check out his Morphology of the Folktale.
Have you seen/played Once Upon a Time? I like to generate folk/fairy tales using their cards, just as an exercise. Shameless self-promotion, here's a few of those.
They also have a Once Upon a Time Writer's Handbook - I haven't read through the whole thing, but it looks quite helpful. That book too offers a version of Propp's taxonomy.
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Another issue you might face is that fairy tales tend to be very self-contained. The story tends to surround just one character (though "the Fool of the World and the Flying Ship" gets a party of sorts) and how that character deals with a specific situation (generally getting out of poverty). If you're going to adapt these tales for a group, you need to figure out not only how they get involved but how it's going to lead to other adventures.
In a lot of stories it's not about being more physically powerful or even magically powerful (most characters would be of the Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, or Warrior classes rather than the usual ones) but being much more cleaver than your opponent(s).
Kindness and cruelty are usually rewarded and punished. Of course, the stories don't get into why evil characters haven't been punished already for their wickedness.
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The Town Musicians of Bremen might be a workable start for your setting
Musicians of Bremen
It involves animals that could be standard classes and the plot is about four of them going off on an adventure
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Definitely need your players on board with the setting.
But for ideas:
One is that druids as a class, and kitsune as a race, might start play in animal form. A druid would pick an animal form to be their base form.. and when they gain wild shape they could learn how to take humanoid forms. It works well for the talking fairy animals theme. Same with Kitsune of any class - start out in fox form, and have to take a feat to become humanoid, analogous to taking fox form as a feat for a normal character. Might work for nagaji druids too.
Characters of the above types could also work with a number of fairy tale themes, like transformed princes/princesses, magically cursed folk, etc. For such characters getting their forms unlocked, have something happen in the flow of the story to allow it - then require them to take the associated feat at their level-up.
As far as magic goes... I've never had the impression magic is only evil. Fairy tales are full of fairy godmothers, wizards, good magicians/sorceresses/etc. They're just usually noted in passing or in the background. Much like university professors and scholars in real life: there's lots of them out there, but its generally the ones that do something bad that you hear about (assuming you're outside their scholarly social circles).
In stories the good wizard might be the object of the protagonist's quest, struggling to reach them to fix some problem or lift an enchantment. Or they might be the master/teacher of the hero, while the latter gets into trouble when they're not around or on some errand they were sent to complete. In a fairy tale setting campaign goodly magic workers fit in just fine. They can take commissions from the heroes just like a normal pathfinder campaign, to make them magical things to help them (armor, weapons, potions, etc.). They can also be adventure hooks, sources of lore, frequent quest-givers to send them to collect this mystical plant/animal, that lost relic, explore unknown places, and so on.
Dwarves in fairy tales: I generally think of some sullen or reclusive, inherently magical beings, very tied to the earth (or rarely fire) usually resentful of intrusion or indifferent to the outside world, and very hardworking. Generally not as slaves, forced to work, or working out of loyalty.. but because its simply their nature. And usually steeped in unfathomable knowledge of the crafting of powerful magical things. Though it does depend on what stories you're reading.
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The Town Musicians of Bremen might be a workable start for your setting
Musicians of BremenIt involves animals that could be standard classes and the plot is about four of them going off on an adventure
Without a doubt my favorite story when I was very young. I used to cackle while reading through the robber's description of the ambush, particularly he describes Satan calling for him from up on the roof. Some of the stories call him a judge instead.
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In 3.5, I ran a "faerie-tale-like" campaign with lots of fey, goblins, and trolls. The PCs were from an isolated village. The village was surrounded by a dragon-infested forest and a haunted swamp. The only road that lead to civilization had a bridge guarded by a cave troll (MM3, CR 8). The village guards were scared of it, so for over a generation, the village was cut off from the rest of the world.
In our 1st session, the level 1 PCs killed it in one or two rounds.
I think it was a party of 4 or 5, but there was a fighter archer with burning arrows, a goliath ranger, and a paladin with Monkey Grip. The ranger and paladin charged from horseback, both wielding Large lances, and at least one of them critted. The fiery archer prevented the regeneration.
After that, the world opened up for them.
Obviously, the PCs were not typical "fairy tale" characters, and the paladin was super min/maxed. The ranger was just BIG. She once carried the horses across a rope bridge. (Like, a really sturdy rope bridge.) They also made her hunt and cook dinner all the time! And gather the firewood, make the fire, set up camp, etc. etc. Just abused all her rangery utility. :-P
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Ars Magica had a great sourcebook for the Faerie realms back in the day. Looks like this is it.
This said, playing a faerie tale themed game would require a lot of work on the atmosphere side, so that most challenges remained in the roleplay realm, rather than in pure combat. Anytime things devolve into combat, the faerie tale theme is going to suffer.
Doooooot.
@Arcwin. Thank you very much for your breakdown. I like the novel way you worked shapeshifting in.
@smilodan. Although it seems you handled it, well that's the sort of things I want to avoid. Races and min maxing that do not exemplify the setting. Applying that rapacious, opportunistic attitude players seem to adopt to what should be a more simplistic, less morally muddy environment. Ethics on the other hand can get as muddy as they like (chaotic good as an example of doing the wrong thing for the right reason)
And again everyone else, thanks for being so involved with info and ideas. I appreciate it!
Oh yeah @wheldrake. My goal is to create loads if rp challenges, puzzles, etc. So thanks for bringing that up. I always love it when players can eliminate a threat without violence.
Welcome. :)
An afterthought for the shapeshifters.. or at least the foxes.. you might buff their animal form a bit so they don't feel useless in fights that come up before they learn to change. Then when they do, say they sacrifice some of their strength in the process, and revert the animal form to rules-standard. An alternative idea that takes more work, would be to design in some challenges/situations where the animal form gets to shine (sneaking into places only they can get into, getting information from other animals of the same kind, etc.)
Good luck with the game! It sounds like it will be awesome, and I envy your players :)
A lot of the game is about descriptions and fell, I sugest to add a yellow road and a lot of riddles.and something like that movie with david bowie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W7YIBgvsNs
A lot of the game is about descriptions and fell, I sugest to add a yellow road and a lot of riddles.and something like that movie with david bowie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W7YIBgvsNs
Labyrinth? Yeah, in fairy Tales, the fey are very magical. Maybe Rumpelstiltskin was the fey lord of the gnomes. When defeated, he goes back to the first world with a bang!
You might consider each family line is under a blood curse/enchantment. Each generation, the most selfish, deceitful child of the Pinocchio family turns into a free willed wood golem. When they perform a selfless act, they get to be "real" and the curse/enchantment passes to the next generation.
A lot of the game is about descriptions and fell, I sugest to add a yellow road and a lot of riddles.and something like that movie with david bowie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W7YIBgvsNs
Labyrinth? Yeah, in fairy Tales, the fey are very magical. Maybe Rumpelstiltskin was the fey lord of the gnomes. When defeated, he goes back to the first world with a bang!
You might consider each family line is under a blood curse/enchantment. Each generation, the most selfish, deceitful child of the Pinocchio family turns into a free willed wood golem. When they perform a selfless act, they get to be "real" and the curse/enchantment passes to the next generation.
Great idea, a creative idea to drive story. I really enjoy where you're mind goes.