Ninjaxenomorph |
In one of my gaming groups (more Pathfinder-focused, the three of us developing a setting together), I seem to be alone in that I don't hate the implementation of androids. One constantly yearns for a more mechanical robot race and isn't a fan of their soul-having status, while the other despises that they have souls. He says it betrays decades of science fiction (to which I say Pathfinder isn't science fiction, but I digress), and has expressly forbid them from any of his games. Note that none of us are sticks-in-the-mud about technology and Pathfinder, we LOVE it, but they just plum hate androids.
I LIKE their almost-organic, soul-possessing implementation. Souls and how they work are admittedly something I am a fan of in Pathfinder, so it's not really a surprise (I also like the Shabti, a race I consider an almost magical equivalent). Is there anything people would suggest to sway their opinions?
Saethori |
If you like the concept of the sentient robot, the creature given artificial sentience with its artificial soul to live its artificial life, Androids are for you.
If you hate the idea of the construct with a soul, if you wanted to play a PC golem without any of the complications of what truly qualifies as life, there's the Wyrwood.
If they dislike androids having souls, there's something that doesn't. Many campaigns can support both existing simultaneously.
So they have options, and aren't forced to play soul-having robots.
Of course, if their problem is the race simply existing, then that needs to be taken up with the GM and his campaign world. If he is running a campaign set in Golarion, however, both definitely exist.
Torbyne |
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If you like the concept of the sentient robot, the creature given artificial sentience with its artificial soul to live its artificial life, Androids are for you.
If you hate the idea of the construct with a soul, if you wanted to play a PC golem without any of the complications of what truly qualifies as life, there's the Wyrwood.
If they dislike androids having souls, there's something that doesn't. Many campaigns can support both existing simultaneously.
So they have options, and aren't forced to play soul-having robots.
Of course, if their problem is the race simply existing, then that needs to be taken up with the GM and his campaign world. If he is running a campaign set in Golarion, however, both definitely exist.
That is not the only option if you can't stand a race existing... That is basically why we have rangers, isn't it?
Melkiador |
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The problem is that in sci-fi, the question of whether or not a robot has a soul is interesting. In fantasy, a soul is a detectable thing, which makes it boring
Note that first world fey don't have souls, and are not at all robotic. I suspect the real reason androids have souls is just for player quality of life. Not having a soul makes a lot of the resurrection options useless to you.
Nargemn |
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When I first read about androids when preparing to play in an Iron Gods campaign I found them so fascinating. A synthetic body created to be intentionally as weak as a human's, and the spontaneous placement of a soul into that host. Somehow the android creators got it right but don't know how, and there's your soul mystery there. The creators made life, the process can be replicated, but no one can figure out why it works, only that it does.
For the more classic humanoid robot with a consciousness but no certainty about having a soul there's the mannequin robot. Canonically in Golarion/Androffa they were created before the androids with the goal of making synthetic life, but it didn't end up being quite right.
Saethori |
That is not the only option if you can't stand a race existing... That is basically why we have rangers, isn't it?
A ranger, with Favored Enemy (Construct) and Leadership, to command an army of follower rangers with Favored Enemy (Construct), sounds like a very unique way to protest a race's existence.
Claxon |
Well, Pathfinder androids are partially synthetic partially organic. And much of their synthetic bits are replicating organic things. It's not surprising that the proper organic bits can give rise to a soul.
Androids (in Pahtfinder) were designed to be as humanoid as possible (for both story and mechanics reasons). They are not constructs, which is what most people think of when they think of androids.
So ultimately Pathfinder androids just aren't the same as classic Android from science fiction.
Drahliana Moonrunner |
In one of my gaming groups (more Pathfinder-focused, the three of us developing a setting together), I seem to be alone in that I don't hate the implementation of androids. One constantly yearns for a more mechanical robot race and isn't a fan of their soul-having status, while the other despises that they have souls. He says it betrays decades of science fiction (to which I say Pathfinder isn't science fiction, but I digress), and has expressly forbid them from any of his games. Note that none of us are sticks-in-the-mud about technology and Pathfinder, we LOVE it, but they just plum hate androids.
The person who hates Paizo's implementation of androids must absolutely despise the Star Trek TOS episode "Requiem for Methuselah". Save for being potentially immortal, Rayna is pretty much the iconic for the Pathfinder android.
Ascalaphus |
You could argue the emotionlessness is physiological; lacking some hormonal systems that create human emotions? Being reincarnated into a body with different emotions (have/have not) would be an interesting RP thing. The reincarnated PC might like it or hate it and seek some way to reverse it.
I'm now picturing an android reincarnated as a human getting into Hellknight training to try to purge all these new disturbing emotions.
Ninjaxenomorph |
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It occurs to me that if android souls are real and not artificial, would they qualify as cyborgs instead of androids. I'm reminded of the Major from Ghost in the Shell.
Well, they are specifically android souls. It wasn't put into them (except by presumably Pharasma), it just manifested.
Then again, it might have been a cosmic screwup on behalf of whoever is in charge of shepherding souls from the Postive Energy Plane.
"It looked like a humanoid, so I put a humanoid soul in it!"
"Well now we have to do it for ALL OF THEM!"
Torbyne |
Nohwear wrote:It is something of an obscure reference, but Alchemical Exalted are rather similar but they have real souls.Although it's a bit more explicable with the Alchemicals, as their soul is in the gem that's jammed into their forehead when they're activated. :P
Amusingly its that certainty that not only is their soul real but they know where it is physically located that makes the Authochtonians suspicious of meatbag claims of also having souls.
Claxon |
Melkiador wrote:It occurs to me that if android souls are real and not artificial, would they qualify as cyborgs instead of androids. I'm reminded of the Major from Ghost in the Shell.Well, they are specifically android souls. It wasn't put into them (except by presumably Pharasma), it just manifested.
Then again, it might have been a cosmic screwup on behalf of whoever is in charge of shepherding souls from the Postive Energy Plane.
"It looked like a humanoid, so I put a humanoid soul in it!"
"Well now we have to do it for ALL OF THEM!"
I don't believe Pharasma (or any being) is in charge of placing souls in creatures. As far as I know how a soul comes to manifest in creatures isn't actually written about at all. What happens to a soul after death or how it is affected by certain abilities is documented, but not how the soul forms. At least to my knowledge.
Zwordsman |
The pathfinder Androids..
I've always viewed them as the end scope (well one of many) of the "robots created by robots" The atypical robots, creating Soul-like construct (so perfect that they practically replicated the various God's feats.
They are the penultimate robotic kick to the face of the Gods.
They're weak and fragile, yet undeniably robotic still. They're express purpose was to suss out a specific variable for the Collective to better quantify. Eventually the machine mob turned into a machine god. Leaving behind the androids, and hyper advanced robot golems and other things.
They served their purpose of their existance, so they were just back burner resources until a use was created. but that never came.
Androids are the forgotten children of a forgotten mechanical god-like entity
That. That approach kills me, I love it. I'm a huge scifi guy, and typically i hate HATE discussions of souls in machines (but I also hate the idea of souls and crap). but that angle? That just hits me prefectly.
Maybe they may like that ? It's not a soul, it is a pseduo soul created for testing anomolies and quantifying the concept of a soul in the world. The pantheon of gods have either accepted a machine god concept, or the souls are so close that at a coursary glance the soul isn't obviously unreal. So all the revival and religious bypass that way.
Or even take it in a different perspective. The gods are terribly interesting-gods in pathfinder aren't omnipotent--even if they fake it. They find the pseduo soulds terribly interesting, and when crops up they are facinated seeing how it grows and changes, and when it passes? They'll happily help it back into its body, to increase the length of time for their little TV show.
Does any of my perspective help?
Zwordsman |
Scythia wrote:Amusingly its that certainty that not only is their soul real but they know where it is physically located that makes the Authochtonians suspicious of meatbag claims of also having souls.Nohwear wrote:It is something of an obscure reference, but Alchemical Exalted are rather similar but they have real souls.Although it's a bit more explicable with the Alchemicals, as their soul is in the gem that's jammed into their forehead when they're activated. :P
They wish it was one soul... the average Alchemical is made up of 100+ heroic or important mortal souls, collect and somehow forming one coherent (mostly) alchemical. Its basically the ultimate multiple personality amalgum that somehow works into a heroic person. All that data profiling by Autochron to weed out and enhance small specific personality traits out of all those souls. Some crazy stuff happens if you use the right charms, and effectively get to talk to that consortium of heroic/important souls.
It occurs to me that if android souls are real and not artificial, would they qualify as cyborgs instead of androids. I'm reminded of the Major from Ghost in the Shell.
Hmm.. I'm not sure about that... the reason the Ghosts are cyborgs in that, is because their brain is still flesh and that is where they view their "ghost" is in. There are several episodes and plot points (more so in the movie old manga story) where they discuss what a ghost is, if its copied and no longer attached to any biology.
Cyborg requires any sort of organic, even if its just a brain stem or i guess even just a finger. So real or not, I don't think the soul factors into cyborg status. Because the fluff say they are entirely artifical they can't be cyborgs. They can be androids with real Ghosts though. or souls in pathfinder term i guess. Though Ghosts in Ghost in the shell are more conciousness concepts than souls. Depending on which charaxcter is talking anywayDale McCoy Jr President, Jon Brazer Enterprises |
Personally, I like Exalted's way of handling them: their androids (autocathonians, if you really want to know) have a soul gem. It is the captured soul of a person that is then used to be the living soul of the android. This slight modification may satisfy your fellow gamers.
In Book of Heroic Races: Advanced Androids, we didn't go the above route, instead staying true to Paizo's vision of androids. Be sure to check it out, it has a 5-star rating.
[/shameless plug]
Vatras |
Such problems can sometimes be solved by not calling them androids, or any SF nomer.
Most of my players abhor SF elements in fantasy games (and the other way round too). That became apparent years ago, when we played an AD&D module, Beyond the Barrier Peaks, where you explore a crashed spaceship (Iron Gods also uses that idea). Nobody wanted a laser weapon. So when they found a shield belt, I called it a lesser force girdle and explained it works like a weaker version of the beloved cube of force. Problem solved.
So maybe you can tackle your problem by trying an angle which is acceptable to everyone, if you can think of one.
Dysphoria Blues |
Hey, Ninjaxenomorph:
Sorry, I just wanted to backtrack a little here:
"Can we keep the jokes out of this? I came for feedback on trying to solve a problem, and honestly only one response here is useful in any way."
I say this with all the Southern politeness I can conjure, but I found this to be rude. People's humor is simply a manifestation of the community's friendliness here on the messageboards. Given time, people will respond to your inquiry and then you'll be swimming in oodles of advice. This is a game after all and it's a welcomed gift when you're met with joviality and lightheartedness (as opposed to trolls pounding at the gates). Food for thought :)
As for your question: I respectfully disagree with your friend that androids having souls "betrays decades of science fiction." The lovely truth about science fiction (and fantasy) is that there is no official canonical way of doing things. I find it more respectful, admirable, and exciting to depart from "the norm" when creating within a genre. This allows the creator to explore new and uncharted ideas (reinvention is key to the longevity and complexities of the sci-fi and fantasy genres). So, I highly doubt that sci-fi writers such as Philip K. Dick would scoff (or worse, feel "betrayed") at the notion that androids have souls. It's a creative license that Pathfinder has taken with their approach to implementing androids into the world of Golarion. You're friends may not like it, but it shouldn't inspire ire or disdain. He is free to simply omit androids from his understanding of Golarion or he can write his own lore for how androids function. Create the androids you want to see in your gaming world - all that the Pathfinder published materials do is give you, the players, the tools to a play a game that you and your friends create together (as you are already doing by crafting your own setting!).
Of course, I agree with you. I really love androids as written in Pathfinder. In another thread, which discussed players' favorite races, I listed androids as my number one choice. (When I actually got to be a player - as opposed to DMing - I played a Roy Batty-type that had the Empathy feat. I had so much fun.)
So, with that said, rather than persuade your friends that androids-as-written are great, I say encourage them to craft androids into a matter that is more fitting to their style (if they so choose to have them in their campaign).
Or, if you would rather play androids as they are written (as I too prefer!), persuade them with the idea that it's a roleplaying game; it would maximize your gaming experience if you could play the PC you want to play. Our gaming group hardly ever sacrifices creativity, imagination, and desire at the alter of the written-word-lore of Pathfinder.
Hopefully, this is somewhat helpful! I wrote this in a sleepy stupor and the word "betray" set my tired mind aflame. Now I must make the journey back to bed...
Cheers!
Ninjaxenomorph |
When jokes that I don't find amusing are made when I'm honestly reaching out for advice, I can get kind of peeved. And 'betray' wasn't exactly the word used, but a verb involving fecal matter isn't allowed on this forum. If I didn't make it clear, there are some strong feelings on this.
Thing is we are not playing on Golarion (or its solar system...) but have a shared setting. While this may seem to be an insignificant detail to differ between three people, whether or not an entire race effectively exists could be a problem.
Torbyne |
Torbyne wrote:Scythia wrote:Amusingly its that certainty that not only is their soul real but they know where it is physically located that makes the Authochtonians suspicious of meatbag claims of also having souls.Nohwear wrote:It is something of an obscure reference, but Alchemical Exalted are rather similar but they have real souls.Although it's a bit more explicable with the Alchemicals, as their soul is in the gem that's jammed into their forehead when they're activated. :PThey wish it was one soul... the average Alchemical is made up of 100+ heroic or important mortal souls, collect and somehow forming one coherent (mostly) alchemical. Its basically the ultimate multiple personality amalgum that somehow works into a heroic person. All that data profiling by Autochron to weed out and enhance small specific personality traits out of all those souls. Some crazy stuff happens if you use the right charms, and effectively get to talk to that consortium of heroic/important souls.
Melkiador wrote:It occurs to me that if android souls are real and not artificial, would they qualify as cyborgs instead of androids. I'm reminded of the Major from Ghost in the Shell.Hmm.. I'm not sure about that... the reason the Ghosts are cyborgs in that, is because their brain is still flesh and that is where they view their "ghost" is in. There are several episodes and plot points (more so in the movie old manga story) where they discuss what a ghost is, if its copied and no longer attached to any biology.
Cyborg requires any sort of organic, even if its just a brain stem or i guess even just a finger. So real or not, I don't think the soul factors into cyborg status. Because the fluff say they are entirely artifical they can't be cyborgs. They can be androids with real Ghosts though. or souls in pathfinder term i guess. Though Ghosts in Ghost in the shell are more conciousness concepts than souls. Depending on which charaxcter is talking anyway
Was that a revision to their cannon at some point? The first edition or two had it that they were single souls but had to be exalt worthy souls, making them extremely rare. There were fragments of past lives in the souls that were often imperfectly cleaned out but it was still just the one massively powerful soul.
Man, i miss that game sometimes. I ran a long dragon blood campaign for a while there but never got to be a player or try out my alchemical idea. Was going to be an Adamant caste amnesiac :)
Zwordsman |
Was that a revision to their cannon at some point? The first edition or two had it that they were single souls but had to be exalt worthy souls, making them extremely rare. There were fragments of past lives in the souls that were often imperfectly cleaned out but it was still just the one massively powerful soul.
Man, i miss that game sometimes. I ran a long dragon blood campaign for a while there but never got to be a player or try out my alchemical idea. Was going to be an Adamant caste amnesiac :)
bit of an off topic, so if we wanted to keep exalted chat, probably should find another means~ But; I've never played first (my friend did, but I was too busyat the time.) in second edition, and 2.5 they were a mass of souls, at least in the Auto book I have. The clockwork planet god collected ~all~ souls and filtered them, for reuse, or for refinement to one of its chosen. Since it only had X number of souls at its disposal when it seperated from creation.
I really only enjoy alchemicals.. because (relating back to pathfinder as well) I really only enjoy scifi, and fantasy scifi (oddly don't like starwars much though). Made Roll Caskett out of starmetal. In Pathfinder I mostly play Alchemists because I'm not a big vague magic guy////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
On top however.
Other than what I suggested before, about how the gods accepted and turned their viewpoint on it-thus turning a scif element into a fantasy element.. I honestly don't think there is anything you will be able to say to convience them/the main GM, that hasn't been listed in this thread. As it was mentioned, strong and seemingly volitile emotions involved.
It doesn't sound like you (as in the group as a whole) want to change the current official fluff (about their history type, or how real their souls are, or the name of the class). So, other than asking them nicely, to give it a try because it is a group game, and you want to play this character with them specifically...
I don't really think there is anything else you can try to do for that group's current game, you may be able to in a future game if the GM's rotate.
May have to reserve android playing for another's game. Or you could take a normal race, and use the craft construct, and construct arms (or tech guide) to effectively replace everything and Ghost in the Shell your character into being nothing but a brain and soul in a cybernetically enhanced body... But realistically speaking, that will be such a money sink that it'll make having a usuable character very difficult.
Melkiador |
I don't see why changing the name doesn't fix the problem. The problem is that one player thinks "androids" should be one way while another player thinks that "androids" should be another similar way. Meanwhile the OP wants mostly the Paizo version. The clear solution to me would be to include both types of androids. The near human nanotech ones and the more mechanical types. There's no reason not to have both types and it's very likely that they could be antagonistic to each other.
Drahliana Moonrunner |
Well, Pathfinder androids are partially synthetic partially organic. And much of their synthetic bits are replicating organic things. It's not surprising that the proper organic bits can give rise to a soul.
Androids (in Pahtfinder) were designed to be as humanoid as possible (for both story and mechanics reasons). They are not constructs, which is what most people think of when they think of androids.
So ultimately Pathfinder androids just aren't the same as classic Android from science fiction.
Quite frankly, most people don't have a clue about what science fiction is as literature. Most Trekkies even don't go that much further beyond ray guns and hot babes in cat suits.
Science fiction isn't as nearly rigid a medium as some folk think. Many of the so-called "standard tropes" have a range of variation you could drive a fleet of trucks through.
Claxon |
Claxon wrote:Well, Pathfinder androids are partially synthetic partially organic. And much of their synthetic bits are replicating organic things. It's not surprising that the proper organic bits can give rise to a soul.
Androids (in Pahtfinder) were designed to be as humanoid as possible (for both story and mechanics reasons). They are not constructs, which is what most people think of when they think of androids.
So ultimately Pathfinder androids just aren't the same as classic Android from science fiction.
Quite frankly, most people don't have a clue about what science fiction is as literature. Most Trekkies even don't go that much further beyond ray guns and hot babes in cat suits.
Science fiction isn't as nearly rigid a medium as some folk think. Many of the so-called "standard tropes" have a range of variation you could drive a fleet of trucks through.
This is true, it's just many people think of Data from Star Trek or the robots from I, Robot. Admittedly both of those examples deal a lot with the androids becoming more human and more intelligent and questioning whether or not the have "souls" like human beings.
Actually most of the androids characters I think of when I think about them are characters who are usually challenging what it means to be human or android and attempting to become more human, gaining qualities that would normally only be attributed to humans beings with souls.
Heck, lets also add in Cylons. The old classic Cylon toaster is a lot like what most people think of when they think Android, but the Cylon race evolved into synthetic human beings with distinct thoughts, feelings, and arguably souls in the new version of Battlestar Galactica.
Drahliana Moonrunner |
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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:Claxon wrote:Well, Pathfinder androids are partially synthetic partially organic. And much of their synthetic bits are replicating organic things. It's not surprising that the proper organic bits can give rise to a soul.
Androids (in Pahtfinder) were designed to be as humanoid as possible (for both story and mechanics reasons). They are not constructs, which is what most people think of when they think of androids.
So ultimately Pathfinder androids just aren't the same as classic Android from science fiction.
Quite frankly, most people don't have a clue about what science fiction is as literature. Most Trekkies even don't go that much further beyond ray guns and hot babes in cat suits.
Science fiction isn't as nearly rigid a medium as some folk think. Many of the so-called "standard tropes" have a range of variation you could drive a fleet of trucks through.
This is true, it's just many people think of Data from Star Trek or the robots from I, Robot. Admittedly both of those examples deal a lot with the androids becoming more human and more intelligent and questioning whether or not the have "souls" like human beings.
Can we really say that Humans have souls, when we don't have a definition for one that's not locked into religion or the Western obsession with continuance of idenity after death?
If the illusion of a soul is merely the result of continual experience.... if it is something that dies with the brain, who says that a sufficiently advanced AI such as an android or Skynet can';t develop an electronic version of the biological program the soul is most likely to be? My personal belief is that a soul is not something we're born with, and that it dies with the brain.
Claxon |
I've always thought the discussions of Androids gaining or having souls was really always a mirror, a method of discussion, of what a soul really was and how/why humans could be considered to have souls.
To me androids were always about exploring what humanity, being human, and having "souls" and "actual intelligence" and consciousness really meant.
Such as the Chinese Room thought experiment.
Kazaan |
There's a school of thought that suggests that our life experiences aren't stored in our physical brains but, rather, the bio-electrical and bio-chemical processes in the brain act as a transceiver between the physical body and the non-physical soul. In other words, your body is like an drone and the nervous system is the antenna; the "self" is entirely non-physical in nature. By that reasoning, if a synthetic nervous system were in place that correctly reproduces this aspect of the natural nervous system, it's perfectly reasonable for a synthetic lifeform with a soul to emerge. There's even a philosophy that the "persona" (the human experience you are having right now) is just a small fragment of the entire soul. So really, what it comes down to is this; unless your friends can offer a clear, definitive explanation of precisely what the nature of a "soul" is, they really have no room to complain about a specific hypothetical interpretation in a fantasy roleplaying game.
Snowlilly |
In one of my gaming groups (more Pathfinder-focused, the three of us developing a setting together), I seem to be alone in that I don't hate the implementation of androids. One constantly yearns for a more mechanical robot race and isn't a fan of their soul-having status, while the other despises that they have souls. He says it betrays decades of science fiction (to which I say Pathfinder isn't science fiction, but I digress), and has expressly forbid them from any of his games. Note that none of us are sticks-in-the-mud about technology and Pathfinder, we LOVE it, but they just plum hate androids.
I LIKE their almost-organic, soul-possessing implementation. Souls and how they work are admittedly something I am a fan of in Pathfinder, so it's not really a surprise (I also like the Shabti, a race I consider an almost magical equivalent). Is there anything people would suggest to sway their opinions?
Somebody needs to spend more time watching Ghost in the Shell.