Hello, I’d like some fun or interesting advice/opinios on the following build.
We’re playing Age of Worms that DM converted to Pathfinder.– very undead heavy campaign.
This is a 12th level gnome sorcerer, arcane bloodline, that is focusing on illusion spells.
The idea is to take spell focus and greater spell focus, which I have done, and at level 15 add 2 more to the illusion DC with the bloodline power. That with the gnome +1 to illusion DC and possibly the +1 DC with metamagic feat (bloodline power) will give a total +6 DC to illusion spells @ lvl 15.
I have 23 in base charisma now and +2 from item for a total of 25 (+7 modifier)
I still have color spray for example and and the DC is 20 (10 + 7 charisma + gnome +1 and spell focus and greater spell focus +2)
We use Pathfinder rules, mostly core only though some 3.5 material is allowed but each spell/feat has to be approved with the DM. Also, we use 3.5 versions of some of the spells – for instance Protection from Evil and Mind Blank. As a rule of thumb, extremely powerful spells or feats are not allowed.
Feats I have so far:
1 Heighten Spell
1 Sorcerer Bonus Feat Eschew Materials
3 Spell Penetration
5 Greater Spell Penetration
7 Leadership (halfling ranger)
7 Bloodline Feat Spell Focus Illusion
9 Greater Spell Focus Illusion
11 Rapid Metamagic (3.5 feat that our DM changed this to have prereq. 11 ranks in spellcraft and it is a must to get the Quicken Spell Metamagic feat which is generally banned for spontaneous casters in our game).
I’m thinking to get Empower Spell and Improved Initiative as bloodline feat at level 13, and Quicken Spell at 15 level. Haven’t decided on anything else.
My Spells so far are at level 12.
(Spells within the parenthesis are spells I’m thinking about selecting when I can)
0 level
Acid Splash
Detect Magic
Dancing Lights
Disrupt Undead
Prestidigitation
Ghost Sound
Silent Portal (this is a 3.5 spell)
Read Magic
Light
1 level
Color Spray (basically because of high illusion DC and the Heighten Spell Feat)
Shield (I have bracers of Armor so I changed to this from Mage Armor)
Identify – bloodline spell
Featherfall
Protection From Evil
Magic Missile
2 level
False Life
Invisibility – bloodline spell
Blindness/Deafness
Mirror Image
Rope Trick
Resist Energy
3 level
Fireball
Dispel Magic – bloodline spell
Greater Magic Weapon (for cohort)
Haste
Slow
4 level
Shadow Conjuration
Dimension Door – bloodline spell
Phantasmal Killer
Orb of Force (Bloodline Spell – New Arcana at level 9)
Enervation
(Ruin Dvelvers Fortune at level 13) – it is 3.5 spell
5 level
Shadow Evocation
Overland Flight – bloodline spell
Telekinesis
(Persistent Image at level 13)
(Mirage Arcana at level 15))
6 level
Greater Dispel Magic
(True Seeing (bloodline spell at 13 level)
(Veil at level 13))
(Greater Heroism (Bloodline New Arcana Spell at level 13)
(Mass Suggestion at level 15)
7 level
(Greater Shadow Conjuration at level 14)
(Greater Teleport (bloodline spell at level 15))
(Limited Wish at level 15)
(Mage’s Magnificient Mansion at level 17) – note, planning on chaning Rope Trick to Command Undead at level 16)
8 level
(Mind Blank at level 16 (we use 3.5 version of this spell))
(Powerword Stun (bloodline spell at level 17)
(Greater Shadow Evocation at level 17)
(Polymorph any Object (Bloodline New Arcana Spell at level 17))
(Form of the Dragon III at level 19)
9 level
(Weird at level 18)
(Wish (bloodline spell at level 19))
(Freedom at level 19)
(Mage’s Disjunction at level 20 – it hasn’t been decided but I think we will use the 3.5 version of this spell, that’s why I don’t take it at level 18)
I’ve been back and forth with a lot of feat and spell selection, and if I should change out lower level shadow conjuration/evocation spells when I get the higher version, but I think I will keep my thoughts to myself for now, hoping for a new, fresh and fun perspective ☺
If anyone is interested in giving his/her opinion in feat and spell selection and possibly give a reason for said selection it would be much appreciated. Thanks ☺
You mentioned Undead Heavy, but Undead are immune to mind-affecting effects. Undead bloodline allows you to overcome that, and if you don't want tto lose everything there is the cross-blooded archetype. I believe there was some feat somewhere else. Other than that it all looks good. Your DC's are through the roof so that should be safe. Just a note, you should read the chapter on magic in the CRB. Goes through the schools and lists a lot of information that's easy to miss.
I would probably say that for an 'illusionist' you don't really seem to have a lot of 'illusions' in your repertoire. I mean you do have mirror image and invisibility (which don't work so well together but both are great spells, but neither takes advantage of all your +DC boosting.) You don't even have silent image or major image. Other than your color spray, it doesn't look to me like a realistically built gnome illusionist.
Until 4th-level when you get phantasmal killer that's about the only thing that will matter with all that DC boosting. It's not until 5th-level spells that it even looks like the spellbook of an illusionist. I didn't really look higher than your 6th-level spells much, since you're 12th level.
As for your feats, this is clearly not a realistically designed character, which means a character that evolved and grew, as opposed to one just built at 12th-level with no thought to how his life and career would have been. No wizard takes Heighten Spell as a 1st-level feat, because it would be near-worthless to him (sure, heighten a cantrip to 1st-level to raise its DC by 1). I suppose you could claim he retrained his feats somewhere in there, but as a GM I would force you to have paid for that.
You don't take your Spell Focuses until 7th-level, which would match the point where you get some actual spells that use DC, but if what you're trying to sell as an illusionist is true, you probably would have Spell Focus (illusion) much earlier, if not 1st-level.
I'm not saying there's anything 'wrong' with the build, but as a GM I require characters to be believable, not just legal. In this case, it doesn't fit what you're selling it as, though if you just said "Here's my gnome wizard," that would be different. (Other than the unbelievable feat progression.)
Best advice, make sure you read all the rules for how illusions work and then talk to your GM to make sure that both of you understand the same way, because how he views illusions is going to factor way more into how effective you are then anything else.
Remember that undead are immune to mind-affecting spells cast on them - like color spray. They're not immune to spells not cast on them - like silent image.
Persistent Spell (PF version) is probably better value than Heighten Spell. Also consider dropping a feat from your plan so you can get Spell Perfection at 15th level.
As others have said, you need to have a way for affecting undead. (who are by nature immune to mind affecting spells, IE enchantments/illusions)
I agree you may get more use out of persistent spell rather than heighten,
I would suggest taking spell focus (Illusion) for a +1 to DC at level one, and swap leadership(I never trust this feat, to easy to break) for Persistent, or if you insist, heighten, metamagic
MageHunter wrote: You mentioned Undead Heavy, but Undead are immune to mind-affecting effects. Undead bloodline allows you to overcome that, and if you don't want tto lose everything there is the cross-blooded archetype. I believe there was some feat somewhere else. Other than that it all looks good. Your DC's are through the roof so that should be safe. Just a note, you should read the chapter on magic in the CRB. Goes through the schools and lists a lot of information that's easy to miss. Illusions with the shadow subschool are not mind affecting so shadow conjuration/evocation spells work normally.. Also have fireball and orb of force and so far they have worked well against the undead. I have a rod of lesser empower with fireball.
Pizza Lord wrote: I would probably say that for an 'illusionist' you don't really seem to have a lot of 'illusions' in your repertoire. I mean you do have mirror image and invisibility (which don't work so well together but both are great spells, but neither takes advantage of all your +DC boosting.) You don't even have silent image or major image. Other than your color spray, it doesn't look to me like a realistically built gnome illusionist.
Until 4th-level when you get phantasmal killer that's about the only thing that will matter with all that DC boosting. It's not until 5th-level spells that it even looks like the spellbook of an illusionist. I didn't really look higher than your 6th-level spells much, since you're 12th level.
As for your feats, this is clearly not a realistically designed character, which means a character that evolved and grew, as opposed to one just built at 12th-level with no thought to how his life and career would have been. No wizard takes Heighten Spell as a 1st-level feat, because it would be near-worthless to him (sure, heighten a cantrip to 1st-level to raise its DC by 1). I suppose you could claim he retrained his feats somewhere in there, but as a GM I would force you to have paid for that.
You don't take your Spell Focuses until 7th-level, which would match the point where you get some actual spells that use DC, but if what you're trying to sell as an illusionist is true, you probably would have Spell Focus (illusion) much earlier, if not 1st-level.
I'm not saying there's anything 'wrong' with the build, but as a GM I require characters to be believable, not just legal. In this case, it doesn't fit what you're selling it as, though if you just said "Here's my gnome wizard," that would be different. (Other than the unbelievable feat progression.)
Best advice, make sure you read all the rules for how illusions work and then talk to your GM to make sure that both of you understand the same way, because how he views illusions is...
Yeah I agree that I need an image spell. I changed Major Image out this level and the plan is to take persistent image next level. It was a very hard choice but I felt that I needed to have Fireball for basic damage, haste for obvious reasons and then slow as it is a very good battlefield control spell. This is only one level I have to get through without an image spell (I had silent image at level 1 and changed it out when I took Major Image at level 6)
Since I took Leadership I felt that I had to do something to support my cohort and Greater Magic Weapon is what I went with. I am thinking about also taking Greater Heroism so I can boost him, and other teammates further. Ranger has undead as favorite enemy of course.
About the heighten spell at first level. This character used to have the Sculpt Spell feat (3.5), which he got at level 3. It was very powerful with burning hands and color spray at level 4. So much so that the DM nerfed it and later we decided to ban it. The character was built early on around that feat but I had to change course around level 4-5. You need a metamagic fear as a prereq for sculpt spell and I thought Heighten spell at level 1 fit thematically with the sorcerer since his powers are innate and can grow with him (I actually feel that sorcerers should get it as a bonus feat but that is another discussion) Also I could dispell darkness at level 4 with it by Heightening Light cantrip to 2 level.
Level 4 was when the character got into his own to begin with. He had color spray, burning hands, silent image, false life. Bunch of scrolls with mage armor and potions of CLW. So he was far from being useless early levels.
TheOrcnextdoor wrote: As others have said, you need to have a way for affecting undead. (who are by nature immune to mind affecting spells, IE enchantments/illusions)
I agree you may get more use out of persistent spell rather than heighten,
I would suggest taking spell focus (Illusion) for a +1 to DC at level one, and swap leadership(I never trust this feat, to easy to break) for Persistent, or if you insist, heighten, metamagic
Yeah I like Spell perfection. However DM nerfed it so that bonuses from feats dont get doubled :/
Undead are not immune to illusion spells with the shadow subschool so shadow conjuration/evocation spells work normally.
Persistent Spell is a good idea. Gonna see if I can work it in. I chose Ranger cohort because we had no ranged class. Party consist of a cleric, paladin, fighter and an arcane trickster.
I think I was unclear as to what I needed advice/opinions on. The character started out at level 1 and is currently at level 12. I can't make any backward changes to him so I am asking for advice and opinions on future feats and spells. That's why I put my current spell ideas in parenthesis. I agree that some of the selections I have made seem weird but I had to change the character around level 4-5 because feats I had selected at level 3 (sculpt spell) got banned and it affected my spell selection as well.DM gave me permission to make some changes to my character because of this and I tried to stick with my original idea as best I could but since I didn't have much time to rethink my building plan it wasn't optimal :/
But what is done is done, and I feel like I can do something to tweak the character a little better, so that is what I am asking, new perspective on where I could go with this sorcerer.
This is an undead heavy campaign but they are not the only monster type of course. There are also a lot of abberations and dragons as well in this adventure path. Because I don't have many HP I tried to compensate by taking False Life early on and Mirror Image shortly after (on of the best defence spells in the game imho). Invisibilty came with the bloodline, can't change it. It is a solid spell but isn't optimal when I'm fighting. One casting of fireball, color spray or something and I am no longer invisible.
the DM banned sculpt spell?
TheOrcnextdoor wrote: the DM banned sculpt spell? First we decided that you needed caster level 7 to use it, then we banned it - but it was fun at level 4 - basically I finished encounters or made them extremely easy for the rest of the party. 20 ft. radius color spray is insane. So yeah, that's basically why it got banned.
Honestly, you don't seem to be thinking like an illusionist. "I need fireball for basic damage" is the thought process of someone who isn't confident in his shadow evocation's save DC. There are also Shadow Enchantment and Shadow Transmutation now.
I am admittedly somewhat biased in favor of the shadow subschool, but it can give you great versatility and even work on undead somewhat. But Image spells are important too.
Is the APG allowed? There's good stuff for your character to be found there:
- Robes of Arcane Heritage
- Phantasmal Web
- Wandering Star Motes
- Persistent Spell
I'd also drop Fireball (as someone suggested) and get heroism instead. +2 to all saves for hours (at your level) is very useful. Less important if you have a good hope casting bard or some other kind of morale bonus, of course.
The Golux wrote: Honestly, you don't seem to be thinking like an illusionist. "I need fireball for basic damage" is the thought process of someone who isn't confident in his shadow evocation's save DC. There are also Shadow Enchantment and Shadow Transmutation now.
I am admittedly somewhat biased in favor of the shadow subschool, but it can give you great versatility and even work on undead somewhat. But Image spells are important too.
Yeah you're probably right. This is only my second time playing an arcane caster and first time trying out all of these illusion spells, I'm clinging to some spells that worked well for my old wizard. My thought process regarding fireball was I could use the rod of lesser empower with it.
Since we just leveled up to 12 at the end of last session I probably could decide to keep Major Image and rather change out Fireball for Greater Magic Weapon - and give the rod to the arcane trickster inn our group.
Haven't heard about Shadow Transmutation and Shadow Enchantments. Going to look that up, that sounds very interesting.
Thanks for your input, point well taken.
Edit: Actually my third time playing arcane caster, first one took part in a fantastic TPK :D
Blave wrote: Is the APG allowed? There's good stuff for your character to be found there:
- Robes of Arcane Heritage
- Phantasmal Web
- Wandering Star Motes
- Persistent Spell
I'd also drop Fireball (as someone suggested) and get heroism instead. +2 to all saves for hours (at your level) is very useful. Less important if you have a good hope casting bard or some other kind of morale bonus, of course.
AGP isn't allowed by default, DM has to approve it.I know that Phantasmal Web and Persistent Spell are ok, need to ask about the other two. This Wandering Star Motes spell is very interesting, never noticed it before for some reason. Gonna ask DM to consider it. Also need to ask about the robe, it could be very useful, both I would get the +2 to any DC right away and the capstone ability much sooner.
I was actually torn between Heroism and Slow, but opted for Slow for battlefield control with the plan to get Greater Heroism. Tbh it kinda sucks that the Greater version is only min/lvl when the lower version is 10min/lvl. I still might get a wand for Heroism, it would last at least 50 minutes and would actually work very well if I could get the Robe as well and use the capstone ability to "fuel it".
I think I could cancel me changing out Major Image this level and change out Fireball instead. That would mean I could skip taking persistent image next level and rather take Phantasmal Web. It is a great spell. I'm also going to consider taking Persistent Spell instead of Empower Spell, although first impression is to wait with taking persistent spell until higher level.
Thanks a lot for your input, I like these ideas.
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