Skill Replacement Powers and Check Types


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion

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Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber
Hannibal_pjv wrote:

Heh... I would not maind a whole article about skill replasement power and some full examples how They work with different characters in different situations.

It is one of those my mind hurts and I am still not sure if this special case will count.

A really good candidate to Paizo blogs!

+1. Solid examples with pictures for visual learners would go a long ways in getting this all ironed all for future references.


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Still no official ruling?


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Slacker2010 wrote:
Still no official ruling?

I'm curious about this as well. I just bought the Occult Adventures character deck, and now I need to know if the many cards in that deck that use Ranged or Disable for your combat check are unusable for Rivani.

Lone Shark Games

It is intended that Rivani uses her power to fire crossbows, hurl daggers, etc, yes.


It appears that this specialized ruling is just to stop Varril from using his power with a weapon. If that is the case, why not just FAQ him to adjust the wording on his power? Currently from Vic's Post this will affect with the intent of a lot of characters and they will all have to be FAQ'd to be allowed to function.

On a side note: Does it matter that Varril can use his power for combat? With the release of the Ultimate decks he can use the Ultimate magic deck to get some combat spells.

Lone Shark Games

Well, these are all actually running afoul of a rule that attempts to disambiguate what happens when you play multiple cards - like weapons and spells - that entirely change how you make a skill check.

So that, for instance, people don't try to somehow stack:
For your combat check, discard this card to use your Arcane, Divine, or Perception skill + 2d8.

and

For your combat check, reveal this card to use your Dexterity or Ranged skill + 1d10+2.


I think everyone understands you can only use one power/card to set your combat. But replacement powers should still allow you to replace an aspect of that.

So you would play a weapon for the ability of: For your combat check, reveal this card to use your Dexterity or Ranged skill + 1d10+2. That is the one power to determine what you are using for the check. Then you could replace your Dexterity or Ranged skill with some other stat. Rivani could use her knowledge. Varril his Divine. Assuming its a dagger or chain trait weapon, Zelhara use her divine.

I think you just need to stress the "replacement" so there would be no issue with people trying to stack.


Keith Richmond wrote:

Well, these are all actually running afoul of a rule that attempts to disambiguate what happens when you play multiple cards - like weapons and spells - that entirely change how you make a skill check.

So that, for instance, people don't try to somehow stack:
For your combat check, discard this card to use your Arcane, Divine, or Perception skill + 2d8.

and

For your combat check, reveal this card to use your Dexterity or Ranged skill + 1d10+2.

Ah, now I understand the dilemma. Certainly most of us knew to only use one card to assign a skill to a combat check, but it's true some people might attempt it if there's no rule preventing it.

The solution may be as simple as saying that for any combat check, you can only play one card or power allowing you to use a skill "for your combat check". Of course the problem is that this should also apply to any other kind of check as well.

At least the intent is understood now, so this should help my gaming group from constantly interrupting the game to figure out if these types of card interactions are allowed.


Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber
Dulcee wrote:


Ah, now I understand the dilemma. Certainly most of us knew to only use one card to assign a skill to a combat check, but it's true some people might attempt it if there's no rule preventing it.

The solution may be as simple as saying that for any combat check, you can only play one card or power allowing you to use a skill "for your combat check". Of course the problem is that this should also apply to any other kind of check as well.

At least the intent is understood now, so this should help my gaming group from constantly interrupting the game to figure out if these types of card interactions are allowed.

I think this is a scenario where the harder we try to explicitly define the rules the more confusing it's going to get. When I teach new people the game they intuitively understand that it's against the rules to try to use both an attack spell and a weapon on the same combat check (or a weapon and a power like Valendron's bolt power). They also understand the intention of skill replacement powers as well.

Perhaps I just don't have the required skill with the English language but the more I try to explicitly parse out every component of what the design intention of the rules are the more confusing things get.


It feels to me that the rule should be "a given skill can only be replaced once" rather than "a given check can only have one replacement". Not sure if that's precise enough to go in the rulebook, but its the right sort of idea - parallel replacements of the same thing do not work, but nested replacements are okay (with the possible exception of cycles).


Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber

And then there is Also the difference of replasing die and the skill...


So why not formulate a new rule like this:

Some cards allow you to use a particular skill for a specific type of check, or to use one skill
instead of another. (These cards generally say things like "For your combat check, use your Strength
or Melee skill" or "Use your Strength skill instead of your Diplomacy skill.").

You may only use one power that allows you to use a particular skill and one power that allows you
to replace the skill you’re using for a given check.

So you can use an effect that says "For your combat check use your Dexterity skill" and then another one that says
"Replace your Dexterity skill with your Wisdom skill". However, you cannot use an effect that says "For your combat
check use your Dexterity skill" and an effect that says "For your combat check use your Strength
or Melee skill" at the same time.


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No cohesive conclusion to this? I'm tossing up on a purchase of the Inquisitor Class Deck either way, though it'd be helpful to help analyse the boons and characters based on this information (well, how Varril should or shouldn't work).

Re-reading this entire thread, it's pretty clear that Varril cannot use a weapon in addition to his replacement power, as the intent is for only one "replacement power" to be usable in a given check. It seems a little murkier, but reasonably well defined that a combat check using Varril's power will have the Divine and Strength (or Melee) traits, and be able to be modified (but not further replaced) by additional effects and cards as appropriate.

This generally leaves Varril as a poor combatant by Inquisitor Class Deck standards, at least if reliant on the class deck box, but still a highly capable all-rounder.

I second the desire for a full blog post on something like this, though, once it's all sorted out. What cards could/couldn't be used in these situations? What check is it in the end? What is the key wording difference between Varril and a dozen other 'replacement' effects which are intended to be used alongside weapons and the like?

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