Way of the wicked swashbuckler

[Undone]

My group completed this adventure and now one of them wants to run it for another group. I'll be participating and while not metagaming too much I'm allowed to use the same piece of knowledge I gave them before they built characters.

Charisma matters, a lot. You can also become undead eventually.

With that in mind and the somewhat unique build rules (+2 skills/level, 25 point buy, bonus trait) I saw a chance to play an otherwise underwhelming character in a swashbuckler.

We also have one special home rule, +3,+4,+5 weapons don't bypass anything You need holy/unholy/spell buffs/metals to bypass DR.

Spoiler:

Swashbuckler
Inspired Blade
Half Orc

-City-Raised: Half-orcs with this trait know little of their orc ancestry and were raised among humans and other half-orcs in a large city. City-raised half-orcs are proficient with whips and longswords, and receive a +2 racial bonus on Knowledge (local) checks. This racial trait replaces weapon familiarity.

-Sacred Tattoo: Many half-orcs decorate themselves with tattoos, piercings, and ritual scarification, which they consider sacred markings. Half-orcs with this racial trait gain a +1 luck bonus on all saving throws. This racial trait replaces orc ferocity.

-Skilled: Second- and third-generation half-orcs often favor their human heritage more than their orc heritage. Half-orcs with this trait gain 1 additional skill rank per level. This racial trait replaces darkvision.

Intimidating: Half-orcs receive a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks due to their fearsome nature.

STR: 7
DEX: 20
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 14

Traits

9 Skill/Level :The swashbuckler's class skills are
Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha),Perception (Wis),
Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Knowledge (local) (Int), Stealth (Dex)

3 Traits:
+1 Will save Campg trait (High Treason),
Fate's Favored,
Highlander (Hills or Mountains) You gain a +1 trait bonus on Stealth checks, and Stealth is always a class skill for you. This trait bonus increases to +2 in hilly or rocky areas.

1 Drawback: Paranoid

Feats It costs 5 feats to be a vampire. I will retrain several feats to it when we get there.
1B) Weapon finesse
1B) WF Rapier
1) Fencing Grace
3) Combat reflexes -> Vamp Feat
4) WS Rapier
5B) IC Rapier
5) Iron Will -> Vampire Feat
7) Vile leadership
8B) GWS Rapier
9) Lunge-> Vamp Feat
11) Improved Iron Will -> Vampire feat
12B) GWF Rapier
13) Vampire feat
15) Iron Will
16B) Lunge
17)
19)
20B)

My problems with the character are as follows

1) The best possible +1 weapon enchantment is also terrible later on because answering is like a jump forward but later on is straight up bad. What weapon enchants would you use? I'll 100% be using fortuitous because it's great but I like unholy due to home rules and bane humanoid is a pretty good investment if you go for answering.

2) This character at level 15+ feels like a joke a best due to know magic. Any remedy?

3) I don't really WANT to play a half orc I want a dex/cha -con or -str race but all the races I looked at with those mods don't have a way to improve your will save.

Any advice on these issues would be appreciated. Especially the weapon since it's not unusual to get+7-10 weapons in this game since it goes to 20.

[Philo Pharynx]

1) Are you limited to using the same weapon? Can you change it out when answering isn't as important?

2) Magus can have a similar feel, but with magic.
UMD and the item mastery feats can simulate magic.

3) Iron will, wisdom boosters, resistance bonuses, indomitable faith.

[Charon's Little Helper]

1. I'd just use straight + bonuses. You'll be getting enough static damage that the extra accuracy is great, and with Parry it helps you defensively.

2. Nope - it's true of all martials. I can only say that most campaigns don't get that high anyway.

3. Why not a halfling? They make great Swashbucklers, and they get +1 to all saves. Also - there is a Swashbuckler archetype which gets a bonus vs mind-affecting spells (Which is about 2/3 Will saves). I would also put your Wisdom up to at least 12. (14 Con is also nice.) The 20 dex at 1 might be overkill.

Ex:
STR: 6
DEX: 19
CON: 14
INT: 13
WIS: 12
CHA: 16

(Though if you really want the 20 Dex you could put Con & Int down to 12 to get it.)

Also of note: If you dump STR you should grab the Muscle of the Society trait so that encumbrance doesn't become an issue.

[avr]

2) Item Mastery isn't a good option for a swashbuckler (poor Fort) but UMD could be. You can't use your free hand to attack without losing precise strike, but you could carry a staff or wand and use it when you're not attacking with the rapier.

[Charon's Little Helper]

avr wrote:

You can't use your free hand to attack without losing precise strike, but you could carry a staff or wand and use it when you're not attacking with the rapier.

While it would work with Precise Strike, it wouldn't work with either Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace, and they're pretty standard for Swashbucklers.

[avr]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

While it would work with Precise Strike, it wouldn't work with either Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace, and they're pretty standard for Swashbucklers.

True. Maybe with a wand since they don't qualify as weapons, but they're pretty limited at high levels anyway.

[Charon's Little Helper]

avr wrote:

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

While it would work with Precise Strike, it wouldn't work with either Slashing Grace or Fencing Grace, and they're pretty standard for Swashbucklers.

True. Maybe with a wand since they don't qualify as weapons, but they're pretty limited at high levels anyway.

No - those feats actually require your hand to be free since their errata. I know my PFS bard with Fencing Grace had to switch from a heavy shield to a light shield for just that reason.

[Undone]

Philo Pharynx wrote:

1) Are you limited to using the same weapon? Can you change it out when answering isn't as important?

I can switch but it'll cost me the half cost of a +3 weapon since my first enhancement is fortuitous because +1 attacks/round is much stronger than +1/+1 to hit/damage. Which is around 9000 some gold. This is a possible option but I'm not sure it's a good one. It's also possible to go something like +1 Answering, Fortuitous, Bane good outsider, Bane Humanoid Human, Unholy exct.

Philo Pharynx wrote:

2) Magus can have a similar feel, but with magic.

UMD and the item mastery feats can simulate magic.

Magus also isn't charisma based and lacks the primary mechanic that makes me want to be a Swashbuckler which is parry which makes defenses feel dynamic.

Philo Pharynx wrote:

3) Iron will, wisdom boosters, resistance bonuses, indomitable faith.

Literally all of that sans 12 wisdom is something I have or will get by a very low level. I was hoping there was something I was missing.

Quote:

1. I'd just use straight + bonuses. You'll be getting enough static damage that the extra accuracy is great, and with Parry it helps you defensively.

The thing about accuracy is that my accuracy will already be absurdly high as it's my defensive stat. I get a 20 starting stat, Weapon training, 2 weapon focus feats, and possibly applying bane to a +5 weapon. I also will NOT have power attack which helps to hit a lot power attack on a 2 handed weapon trails off at the giant 60 total damage. For 1 handed weapons at 40 average damage (which I achieve at level 6-7 or so) it stops being useful. The alternative is the generic vanilla +5 fortuitous, unholy, good outsider bane.

Quote:

2. Nope - it's true of all martials. I can only say that most campaigns don't get that high anyway.

This game goes to 20. I ran it for my group already to 20. It will get to 20. I'm figuring out how to be useful at levels that high.

Quote:

3. Why not a halfling? They make great Swashbucklers, and they get +1 to all saves. Also - there is a Swashbuckler archetype which gets a bonus vs mind-affecting spells (Which is about 2/3 Will saves). I would also put your Wisdom up to at least 12. (14 Con is also nice.) The 20 dex at 1 might be overkill.

Quote:

for each size category the attacking creature is larger than the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler takes a –2penalty on this roll.

1) Because halflings make terrible swashbucklers and half orcs get a higher bonus to saves, and more skill points without the defensive/offensive penalty.

2) odd stats are bad. Especially in high level games. You get all 5 stat bumps and a +5 stat book. If you take a lower stat amount you take the 16 instead of 18 but never 17. Con is also not that important in a game where you are told up front you can be undead by level 11-12 which means con will never provide more than 10 hp per 2 points and is later replaced.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Undone wrote:

Quote:

for each size category the attacking creature is larger than the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler takes a –2penalty on this roll.

From a practical standpoint it's only -1 since you're always getting a +1 size bonus to accuracy.

Undone wrote:

1) Because halflings make terrible swashbucklers and half orcs get a higher bonus to saves, and more skill points without the defensive/offensive penalty.

Of course half-orcs get better if you cheese it out with the Fate's Favored combo. They get higher than everyone except maybe dwarfs.

Why do half-orcs get more skillpoints? More for the particular stats that I recommended, but not in general. Halflings will slightly be better off due to skill bonuses they get.

How are they getting an offensive penalty? They get -1 damage (d4 vs d6) for +1 accuracy. Level 3+ and that becomes higher DPR. Not to mention more panache from higher CHA.

Defensively they take a total of -1 to Parry, but they also gain +1 AC all of the time, as well better Charmed Life due to better CHA and the ability to use Parry more often due to more panache.

[Undone]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Undone wrote:

Quote:

for each size category the attacking creature is larger than the swashbuckler, the swashbuckler takes a –2penalty on this roll.

From a practical standpoint it's only -1 since you're always getting a +1 size bonus to accuracy.

Undone wrote:

1) Because halflings make terrible swashbucklers and half orcs get a higher bonus to saves, and more skill points without the defensive/offensive penalty.

Of course half-orcs get better if you cheese it out with the Fate's Favored combo. They get higher than everyone except maybe dwarfs.

Why do half-orcs get more skillpoints? More for the particular stats that I recommended, but not in general. Halflings will slightly be better off due to skill bonuses they get.

How are they getting an offensive penalty? They get -1 damage (d4 vs d6) for +1 accuracy. Level 3+ and that becomes higher DPR. Not to mention more panache from higher CHA.

Defensively they take a total of -1 to Parry, but they also gain +1 AC all of the time, as well better Charmed Life due to better CHA and the ability to use Parry more often due to more panache.

1) it is -1 to defend yourself.

2) Half orc's always take FF because it's strong. It's no more cheesy than a warpriest taking the trait for divine favor. Dwarfs get higher.
3) The offensive penalty comes from the lower chance to hit out of turn.
4) Half orc's get 1 more skill point per level. Just like as a fact.

Quote:

Skilled: Second- and third-generation half-orcs often favor their human heritage more than their orc heritage. Half-orcs with this trait gain 1 additional skill rank per level. This racial trait replaces darkvision.

Overall the differences are

Halfling
-1 damage
-1 skill/level
-1 hit out of turn
-1 all saves
-10 movement

+1 panache
Equal saves 3/4/5/6 times a day when you do not riposte
+1 hit on turn
+1 AC

The ac doesn't really matter since you chose to parry pretty much down to 1 panache starting at level 5. Halfling is meh unfortunately. I'll take a deeper look but my initial impression was they are just underwhelming for swashbucklers compared to half orc's, drow, and ifrits.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

a inspired blade 1/Mesmerist 19 works very well with the theme of becoming a Vampire because the Mesmerist has swift action debuff's to opposing will based off of their sight you get casting that synergies nicely with your theme and you get some wicked precision damage with deadly stare's and some party support as well.

You'd also make a pretty nice skill monkey with your parties rules. Vishkanya are a good race (+Dex and +Cha) with negative wisdom, but Mesmerists get Cha to Will so your race won't fixed it but the class does.

Plus I'm pretty sure you can get Dex to damage at level one this way and >.>

[Java Man]

Have you considered drow, half elf or nagaji? All have some typenof will booster built in and stat bonuses on par w half orc.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Undone wrote:

Halfling
-1 damage

True

Undone wrote:

-1 skill/level

With the human-raised racial trait - okay

Undone wrote:

-1 hit out of turn

Nope. Only affects the Parry part of parry/riposte.

Undone wrote:

-1 all saves

Okay - if you grab Fate's Favored. Other than for half-orcs, it's not as standard since the Jingasa change, so you should include it as a cost.

Undone wrote:

-10 movement

Nope. No halfling ever doesn't take Fleet of Foot to get a 30ft movement.

Undone wrote:

+1 panache

Equal saves 3/4/5/6 times a day when you do not riposte
+1 hit on turn
+1 AC

Also +2 perception

+2 saves vs fear

The higher Charisma also has skill benefits.

Also - being small actually makes encumbrance be less of an issue, which it certainly can be for a Swashbuckler who dumps STR. With a STR of 7 as a medium creature you can't even wear a chain shirt without the Muscle of the Society trait and remain at a light load. With the trait you still can't wear a chain shirt, buckler, and rapier even if you're naked otherwise.

Small size gives you 3/4 carry capacity while gear weighs 1/2. A small-sized 5 STR is better off with gear weight than a medium 7 STR.

Undone wrote:

The ac doesn't really matter since you chose to parry pretty much down to 1 panache starting at level 5. Halfling is meh unfortunately. I'll take a deeper look but my initial impression was they are just underwhelming for swashbucklers compared to half orc's, drow, and ifrits.

The AC applies to all ranged attacks and whenever you're flat-footed. It should also be used against iterative attacks or against mooks. While extremely useful, I think that you're overestimating how consistently you'll be able to Parry.

[Undone]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

The higher Charisma also has skill benefits.

Also - being small actually makes encumbrance be less of an issue, which it certainly can be for a Swashbuckler who dumps STR. With a STR of 7 as a medium creature you can't even wear a chain shirt without the Muscle of the Society trait and remain at a light load. With the trait you still can't wear a chain shirt, buckler, and rapier even if you're naked otherwise.

Small size gives you 3/4 carry capacity while gear weighs 1/2. A small-sized 5 STR is better off with gear weight than a medium 7 STR.

While I am slowly coming over to the side of halfling it's largely due to something my brother pointed out

"I only have 3 traits, the WoTW trait gives me +1 trait will save, fate's favored gives me +1 saves, so does adopted glory of old." At which point since I need a stealth trait halfling improves. Additionally since he ok'ed gloves of dueling to work with swash Weap training my to hit is decent enough. The +1 to will saves basically at all time

as to this

Quote:

The AC applies to all ranged attacks and whenever you're flat-footed. It should also be used against iterative attacks or against mooks. While extremely useful, I think that you're overestimating how consistently you'll be able to Parry.

Plume of panache costs 1k and can be replaced after usage. I'll likely buy 5-6 and just replace them every combat. Along side the +3 from my weapon later on I expect to be able to parry at will by the 3rd book.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Undone wrote:

Plume of panache costs 1k and can be replaced after usage. I'll likely buy 5-6 and just replace them every combat. Along side the +3 from my weapon later on I expect to be able to parry at will by the 3rd book.

Fair enough - that would certainly make it able to be used more frequently after the first couple books. I hadn't checked, though in my head I'd wrongfully assumed that it had been hit by the same errata which prevented you from cycling through quick-runner shirts. (Though it wouldn't surprise me if it happens the next time they print the Advanced Class Guide.)

Of note: I'm not saying that half-orc isn't a solid option to play Swashbuckler with - just that halfling is also a solid choice.

[Azten]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Nope. No halfling ever doesn't take Fleet of Foot to get a 30ft movement.

Not true.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Azten wrote:

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Nope. No halfling ever doesn't take Fleet of Foot to get a 30ft movement.

Not true.

Okay... no halfling that I've ever seen played.

[Azten]

The halflings you've seen put too much emphasis on 10ft then.

[nennafir]

Can you fit in crane style and slashing grace?

[Undone]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Azten wrote:

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Nope. No halfling ever doesn't take Fleet of Foot to get a 30ft movement.

Not true.

Okay... no halfling that I've ever seen played.

'

Honestly I was going to take +2 stealth and +2 bluff and stack it with boots of elven kind. Blend is a pretty fun spell when your stealth is >40. The value of 10 move speed drops off hard less than 1 book in when you can get vile leadership by level 7 and use my organization to get a buff wizard who follows me and gives me flight.

Quote:

Can you fit in crane style and slashing grace?

If I could fit it I'd be a kitsune with vulpine pounce instead and not take said feats. Unfortunately I cannot take said feats, no space. Pounce is clearly the right choice but having a wizard who's job in life is to telekinetic charge , fly, and haste me makes it matter less. Crane style is cute but losing 5 feats for vampire makes it a tough sell.