Take this opportunity to get rid of iterative attacks


General Discussion


I'm not advocating for the complete remove of multiple attacks, but diminishing iterative attacks have always been one of my least liked features of the d20 system, going all the way back to the release of 3E in 2000.

I propose using Starfinder as a chance to remove them from the system, instead making multiple attacks where they all operate at your full attack bonus, but there are less of them overall, which also thusly makes them more valuable. Lets say high BAB classes eventually get a total of 3 attacks, with additional ones coming in around levels 7 and 15, and medium BAB get 2, the 2nd of which they get around level 11. Low BAB classes only ever get the 1 attack. Also, TWF only ever gives 1 additional attack.

This seems like it would be a cleaner system, and makes it where each extra attack is a huge boon and truly matters.


That would work if you reduce overall HP or up individual shot damage. As is, the Tech Guide has advanced weapons that are limited to no more than 3 shots per round and have an interesting approach to it. You can make three shots per wielded semi-auto from level one if you have Rapid Shot but all attacks are at -6. This is a big problem until your BAB is high enough to be able to land three attacks at full BAB-6... which doesn't take too long for a martial to be able to pull off. A 3/4 or 1/2 BAB has the same options for number of attacks from level 1 but takes a lot longer for that accuracy penalty to make it worth while. When dual wielding you can make up to six attacks but the penalties to all attacks get pretty severe, six shots at full BAB -10, due to not having light weapons (kind of punny that, the lasers are light weapons in their own way). Anyways, i like how that works even if i dont like that they are all energy weapons. It also means that Martials end up being flat out better using TWF if they have to use tech weapons since two handed weapons dont have any great advantage in damage over one handed and cant make any additional attacks beyond the normal 3. I would like Starfinder to adopt some of that model for attacks. hopefully if 3 is the limit for a full attack you can still take a move and get at least 2 off. Or some kind of shot on the run where you can make all of your attacks while moving and just take an extra -2 to hit. That would allow a high level martial to go full Rambo/True Grit and double move across the battle field while popping off 6 shots from dual wielded pistols and still land some hits with that full BAB -12 penalty to each.


You have to understand the rationale behind the diminishing iterative. They're there to prevent a sudden doubling of a character's damage output, something you would get if you don't adjust the attack bonus. D&D since 1st edition AD&D (at least) has phased in this increased effectiveness, though 1e/2e did it with an attack rate that started adding the additional attack on alternate rounds.


Gambit wrote:

I'm not advocating for the complete remove of multiple attacks, but diminishing iterative attacks have always been one of my least liked features of the d20 system, going all the way back to the release of 3E in 2000.

I propose using Starfinder as a chance to remove them from the system, instead making multiple attacks where they all operate at your full attack bonus, but there are less of them overall, which also thusly makes them more valuable. Lets say high BAB classes eventually get a total of 3 attacks, with additional ones coming in around levels 7 and 15, and medium BAB get 2, the 2nd of which they get around level 11. Low BAB classes only ever get the 1 attack. Also, TWF only ever gives 1 additional attack.

This seems like it would be a cleaner system, and makes it where each extra attack is a huge boon and truly matters.

This kind of reminds me of StarWars Saga Edition. However, in that, everyone only gets one attack. You can take two feats (Double Attack and Triple Attack) to get an extra attack, granted at a -5 to all attacks for Double and -10 for Triple.

You can mitigate those negatives, but to fully get rid of the penalties you have to spend 9 levels in a prestige class that you could use to get more interesting abilities.
Also, Two Weapon Fighting grants one attack with your off hand at a -10, which becomes a -5 with the first feat, -2 with the second, and no penalty with the last.

Saga Edition does have a lot of problems though...


Trailblazer by Bad Axe Games, and it is on sale, changes Iterative attacks to:

• At BAB +6, you get a 2nd attack, but both attacks suffer a –2 penalty (–2/–2 instead of 0/–5).
• At BAB +11, the penalty drops to –1/–1 (instead of 0/–5/–10).
• At BAB +16, the penalty drops to –0/–0 (instead of 0/–5/–10/–20).

It works well.

-- david


Papa-DRB wrote:

Trailblazer by Bad Axe Games, and it is on sale, changes Iterative attacks to:

• At BAB +6, you get a 2nd attack, but both attacks suffer a –2 penalty (–2/–2 instead of 0/–5).
• At BAB +11, the penalty drops to –1/–1 (instead of 0/–5/–10).
• At BAB +16, the penalty drops to –0/–0 (instead of 0/–5/–10/–20).

It works well.

-- david

How does that compare to HP totals, ie, does HP continue to scale up after PCs get their second attack and if so does it outpace static damage boosts? Can PCs move and get both attacks in?


Torbyne wrote:
How does that compare to HP totals, ie, does HP continue to scale up after PCs get their second attack and if so does it outpace static damage boosts? Can PCs move and get both attacks in?

It is 192 page PDF, linked in my last post. This is only one of many "improvements" to 3.0 / 3.5 / PF. For the sale price of $4.95, in my opinion, and I bought it at full price, it is worth it.

Two other quotes from the "Iterative Attacks" section. "This method returns results that actually increase damage by up to 15% across the vast majority of monsters that the fighting man will face." and "Against the edge cases — that is, monsters who are so easy to hit that you only miss them on a natural 3 or less, and monsters that are so hard to hit that you only hit them on a natural 18 or more—the expected damage goes down."

-- david


Papa-DRB wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
How does that compare to HP totals, ie, does HP continue to scale up after PCs get their second attack and if so does it outpace static damage boosts? Can PCs move and get both attacks in?

It is 192 page PDF, linked in my last post. This is only one of many "improvements" to 3.0 / 3.5 / PF. For the sale price of $4.95, in my opinion, and I bought it at full price, it is worth it.

Two other quotes from the "Iterative Attacks" section. "This method returns results that actually increase damage by up to 15% across the vast majority of monsters that the fighting man will face." and "Against the edge cases — that is, monsters who are so easy to hit that you only miss them on a natural 3 or less, and monsters that are so hard to hit that you only hit them on a natural 18 or more—the expected damage goes down."

-- david

Interesting, might have to check that one out. Thanks for the link too, i missed it the first time i read your comment.

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