Back when I was writing Book of Multifarious Munitions: Vehicles of War, I quickly realized that vehicles are not going to get much use because there is no real way to balance them. Sure, they have gold pieces to balance their worth, but how do you balance vehicles in combat? A basic kobold is a CR 1/4, but what about a basic kobold with a kobold flame dragon? There's no information in the rules on how vehicle A is more combat effective than vehicle B and there is no XP for defeating a vehicle, only the vehicle's crew.
Proposed Solution: Ships have levels. The Ship "Class" (if you will) should be ripped straight from the Summoner's Eidolon, except you don't get to cash in all the points every level and make a whole new ship, the way you do with the eidolon. You get a few more points to upgrade the ship. If you happen to get a hold of a ship above your level, you take a penalty to all operations since its complexity is beyond your capability of handling it, and you don't get any points to upgrade the ship that level. But if you get a ship that is your level, when you gain a level, you can add modifications the ship. And a ship with a level will figure into XP nicely.
Yes and no. I think they should have some category/class/levels as far as defining their general power level, cost, and useability but I wouldn't link it to class levels, class features or XP mainly because that would limit the kind of game you play based on APL. For example flying has an informal limit so that early levels you definitely aren't getting it, however I may want to model a campaign to be like 'Dragonflyz' or 'Skies of Arcadia' where floating islands and airships are the norm and not flying at all is a huge detriment. Vehicles that don't have level roadblocks are helpful for where class features fail, in fact the book you quoted contains a magic broom and the crescent hover board which helped out in early levels of that campaign by just allocating a group 'vehicle budget' that was the equal to the price of the cheapest flying vehicle times the number of players.
That said categorizing them by levels is very helpful for when you do want to synch up class features. For example Thunderscape has something I call a 'Motorcycle Wizard', the Thunder Scout, which gets progressively more powerful vehicles, which is all fine and dandy when it comes to the vehicles in the book but since no other vehicle has any such progression I have to do things on a case-by-case basis because sometimes price reflects very poorly on the combat effectiveness of a vehicle.
The problem gets worse because a lot of vehicle rules assume that you won't be piloting vehicles until late levels when you can afford it, so the checks and DCs for doing simple things are basically impossible to deal with unless you're using third party vehicle rules.
I think I would probably have a ranging of "starting" ship types, relatively balanced to one another. Possibly with some basic evolution point type system so that character can add some minor modifications. I would then simply allow a range of options that characters could purchase for their ship, with more powerful modifications costing more money. I would probably also have some higher tiers of ships that higher level characters could buy should there ship go boom or they just want a new ship.
what I am having difficulty thinking about is the balance element. Do we automatically default that ALL groups start with a vehicle/ship? If not how do we accommodate games where for whatever reason PCs don't need or want a ship? Do they just ignore that set of rules? If the expectation is that PCs are throwing money into the improvement and maintainence of a vessel, than a group that doesn't have that will have way more money to upgrade their personal equipment and won't be balanced.
I'd be very satisfied with a system where the PC ship functioned with PC stats (highest ranged attack bonus for laser cannons, highest Perception bonus for sensors, highest Diplomacy bonus for communications), whereas NPC ships had monster style stat blocks with a listed CR. However, I think it's pretty settled at this point that the APL vs CR equation has always been a bit of a knotty problem from d20 systems.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try Dale, I'm saying better you than me. :P
I think it would be cool, but probably should be in some RPG as it's own thing. Having ship leveling could be overly complex in some ways.
However, in it's own RPG, it could be easily described as the crew growing more experienced, the ship's spirit (like in WH40K) getting more powerful, etc.
Why, if I had the currency or engineering skill, could I not just buy and attach new and better parts?
Because you didn't have the engineering skill. That's exactly the point. Its like adding new spells to a wizards spell book every level, it represents you working more stuff for the ship over time.
Actually, that could be apart of every class. Every class gets X points to add to the ship every level, like skill points. So it is hp per level, skill points per level, and ship points per level. This way, if you don't get a ship until everyone is 4th level, you should expect to see the total number of ship points you get would be the sum of everyone's ship points multiplied by 4. The GM can add or subtract the number of ship points as he sees fit from that starting ship. The engineer contribute more than anyone else, the figher analogue would contribute the least, etc.
However, in it's own RPG, it could be easily described as the crew growing more experienced, the ship's spirit (like in WH40K) getting more powerful, etc.
Or the ship from Farscape.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
On a ship, wouldn't they be called "decks"? :-)
I think it would make more sense for ships to have a CR, rather than a level adjustment, or ignoring their effect altogether.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I could see a artifact/intelligent/nanotech ship having levels. But not an ordinary one. Non-magical ships are like investments, the more you put in the more you get out. Rare materials for the hull, magic accoutrements, better crew, and let's not forget the cargohold of holding.
A lot of what the ship does is not dependent on the ship itself. The players are going to fire the cannons so they will use their ranged attack bonus, which goes up as they level. And assuming feats like deadly aim still exists, so will the damage. The piloting is also done by a player who's skill goes up with level.
You can probably assume that the players will (have to) spend some character wealth on upgrading the ship here and there, improving guns, armor plating and whatever. That is a well established practice already, except normally PCs do it to themselves by buying better magic armor and weapons.
Where it becomes difficult is hit points. Sure you can also handle it through ship upgrades in some way, but this is where the system kind of falls apart.
It is assumed that hit points are a measure of physical resistance but also a creature's ability to mitigate hits by twisting and turning out of them. So since the pilot is the one making the ship move, theoretically it should get temporary hit points being piloted based on the pilot's skill, or their own hitpoints.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, a 'Modification Pool' that's similar to a Evolution Pool could work really well in giving a ship a more personal touch. I would just make the pool static dependent upon ship type. I.e. a Transport only has a Mod Pool 2, while a Heavy Cruiser has a Mod Pool 8.
Then, you make the Modifications have certain costs like the Eidolon Evolutions. Some cost 1 Mod Point, others cost 4.
And just like there's an Extra Evolution Feat, you can have an Additional Modification Feat. Just give it a Knowledge: Engineering (or whatever the equivalent is.) Prerequisite. That way you don't have to be an Engineer to take the feat, but it would be a good idea. Perhaps give it to the Engineer Class as a bonus feat at third level or something.
Now how to go about installing the Mods, perhaps you can do it a couple of ways. For those without the Engineering skill, a space dock is required and a payment of 100 currency per point of the Modification. For those with Engineering, they can either add or swap out a Modification when they up their Engineering skill.
Am I making any sense?
The only thing at this point though, is what about when the PC's purchase their first ship? Would it start with Mods or no?
I assume it could work similar to mounts and other animals in Pathfinder: you can buy them, but certain classes would get a ship "companion" that levels with them. That way your roguish captain gets a signature ship that runs on love and duct tape, but can still outperform the fancy prefab ships everybody else has.
"He's riding a bicycle powered by love. Which is a common thing on this planet!"
- Lurr, Ruler of Omicron Persiei 8