So my newest group of 4 veteran players has proved to conquer all my combat encounters I threw at them. They're level 1, almost 2, and we're playing through the first chapter of Council of Thieves.
While scheming how to make this adventure path more of a challenge to them, I noticed all 4 of them have chosen charisma as their dump stat, with some low (7-9) wisdom values here and there.
My question to you creative GMs out there: how would you make this walk in the (Westcrown) park that is "The Bastards of Erebus" more challenging for this group?
(The classes are human witch, halforc cleric of War, elf magus and human Zen Archer monk)
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Abberations and debuff spells. It is likely that they will have terrible Will saves.
Honestly, Council of Thieves is a very easy AP in general. Rogues everywhere.
That said, just wait until they need to do the play, and face off against the vampires with their at will dominate. It'll even out.
Goblin Dogs deal CHA damage.
Are we trying to give fun challenge, or rub their noses in it for leaving such a a huge gap in their metaphorical defenses?
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It sounds to me like your players are using their own wisdom and charisma instead of their characters'.
A party where everyone is dumping charisma is a party that is going to have a difficult time influencing others. They are going to be viewed unfavorably in general by everyone they meet. They're not going to easily rally people behind their cause. Heck, they aren't even going to get bargains when buying stuff.
If they are pouring skill points into Diplomacy to work around these limits, then you need to adapt to that, too. You basically have a bunch of aloof characters who happen to be good at talking...once someone agrees to let them talk. The problem is that first impression, before they ever start speaking. Maybe they won't get that chance.
If they are all CHA-dump, give them penalties on skill checks because there is basically no one in the party who is naturally good at relating to others. Or, make them role-play their diplomacy rather than die roll it. Challenge or penalize them if they show too much of themselves in their characters. Or up the DC on the results that are required.
Same thing goes for low wisdom. Someone with below-average wisdom has bad judgement. A party of low-wisdom characters has fantastically bad judgement because, wihtout anyone to point out otherwise, they think they have good judgement. If one of them has a brilliant insight in the game, make them defend it with something their character knows or has experienced, to separate that from the player. Or, up the DC of skill checks for things like Sense Motive. You can even throw in NPCs that give them false leads so that they actually do make poor decisions.
They really need to experience what it means to be low-CHA and low-WIS. This is a party of aloof, tactless characters, prone to saying the wrong thing at exactly the wrong time, and likely to misconstrue others' actions. Heck, I'd even be tempted to use their table talk against them. If they are chatting or joking OOC about what they would do, interject as the DM. Make them make a WIS or CHA check to see if their character would actually have done that dumb thing they were joking about. I bet that would get their attention, real quick.
This sounds like a place for charm person.
The penalty for asking someone to do something they normally wouldn't (but not too obviously suicidal or harmful) is an opposed charisma check. Which means if you throw a bard out there with decent charisma, they are about 4 or 5 points below the caster, which makes it a fairly safe bet. And they don't exactly have the great will saves to resist the charm in the first place.
I am sure there are some things you can do with that. Maybe convince them to take actions that make important NPCs more hostile towards them, which they can't deal with using their poor diplomacy checks.
OP asked for ways to challenge the party, not ways to maliciously punish them for playing a certain type of character. Arbitrary skill check penalties and Wis checks that force them to lose control of their characters are the worst possible things you could do here.
Hell, the OP didn't even mention the quality of the roleplaying, so I don't even know why that's your first assumption either.
Whether or not these items are "malicious" is a matter of opinion. The point is to think about what it really means to have low stats across the party in the exact same two areas. How does that affect the characters? What kind of party is that? How does that manifest in terms of game mechanics?
There are several legit game mechanics. Skill checks are one of them. Saves are another, and other people have already suggested tossing in more will saves. Fine. That targets wisdom, but what targets charisma? Answer: very little. Charisma is a "soft" ability and it's a popular dump because it doesn't affect the majority of characters in a game that is mostly about combat. It's like taking necromancy as your opposed magic school. Players do it because it's an easy answer.
If you are OK with that as a GM, then fine. But if you aren't, then the quuestion comes back to whether or not your players are really playing the game with those low scores across the entire party. I certainly don't know, but I'm suspicious.
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Throw them into a social scenario where they need to gather information and one failure incurs massive penalties to gathering more information/influencing others. Diplomacy only, Bluff and Intimidate incur more penalties.
GM: You meet with <Mr. Pompous Asshat>, how do you inquire about the information?
Player 1> Intimidate!
GM: Your aggression has caught the attention of the town guards. They detain you, while Mr. Pompous Asshat leaves. What do you wish to do?
P1> I chase after him!
GM: The town guard chase after you and apprehend you. How do you explain your previous actions?
P1> err... bluff?
GM> Roll.
P1> *Rolls low.*
GM> The town guards prevent you from talking to Mr. Asshat.