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Whoa there, ease up on the poor Druid. That's not how summoning works. The rules don't really specify where animals being summoned come from exactly, but they are actually safer while being summoned than any other time in their life (assuming they have one and aren't pulled from some Platonic ideal catalog).
A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.They're about as immortal as the Terrasque for those few rounds of summoning.
Moving on, though, if you're going to make Druid fall for using a class feature as intended, definitely trade it out. Druids already get Wild Shape at 4th level, so maybe you're thinking of an archetype. If the player does take one of those archetypes, moving it back to 4th isn't a bad idea. In most cases, though, I'd recommend allowing spontaneously casting from the Fey Spell Lore feat's list. While the spell level is a little delayed, the lower level spells stay more useful than the summons do.
Still causing them Pain. It's unnatural and cruel. Better would be to spontaneously summon human peasants to die horrible deaths for some treasure.
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If one were to follow this logic, then Druids and Hunters should be mortal enemies. After all, Hunters not only dedicate their career to ordering around a displaced animal, but they steal other powers of nature that they clearly have no respect for.
I also hate animal companions and never opt for this feature for that very reason. I've see so many bosom buddy animal companions scarified in a oh s&*~ that sucked guess i'll get another fashion that they are more like edilons (sp) with a longer casting time.
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If one were to follow this logic, then Druids and Hunters should be mortal enemies. After all, Hunters not only dedicate their career to ordering around a displaced animal, but they steal other powers of nature that they clearly have no respect for.I also hate animal companions and never opt for this feature for that very reason. I've see so many bosom buddy animal companions scarified in a oh s#%& that sucked guess i'll get another fashion that they are more like edilons (sp) with a longer casting time.
If you're the GM then you should probably talk to your players about not treating their ACs like they're a cheap consumable that they can go shopping for like it's nothing.
I don't. My ACs are my buddies.
Of course Troll is on the SNA list, You think a Druid is going to be computer savvy enough to protect nature on these boards all by her lonesome?
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Yeah that's not how Summoning spells work. The create a copy of a creature, or at the very least it isn't the "real" creature because it can't die and doesn't take any actual injuries.
Planar Binding and Planar Ally spells are calling spells which actually bring the real creature, but summoning spells are not.
If anything, maybe feel bad about the animal companions which are sent into battle. Of course, the Druid is right there along with them and generally speaking the druid does try to take of his animal companion, even though they often have missions which means risking danger for both of them.
Frankly, any ruling you make which would strip away a classes powers for using them as intended is simply a bad ruling. I don't say this to be rude, but if you really stick to such a ruling you probably shouldn't bother being a GM because you're punishing people for using things as the game intended.
I LOVE druids (I am one) I just think that they didn't consider what they were doing when they created them. I'm saying that like a Paladin or Cleric they have something they revere and would not simple throw it to the lions. If forced to defend nature. Sure, sacrifice some soldiers. But for treasure, or xp, or a princess etc. Nope.
Personally I would fix this with wild shape at 1st level. Then the only life/pain the druid is risking is their own.
I LOVE druids (I am one)
I see where you are going wrong. Your DnD druid is NOT the same thing as your modern day doodad.
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So what if a druid that loves nature wouldn't use SNA? A druid that understands nature wouldn't agree to the ban on metal.
Slight tangent: Druids aren't banned from using metal, they're banned from wearing manufactured metal armor. A Druid who takes the proficiency can wield a greatsword perfectly fine.
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I just started playing a Dwarf Druid for the Earth domain that is all about creation and crafting, worshiping the "Great Creator."
He does not really care about animals per se, but nature's ability to recycle and grow or build upon itself though its processes... dirt, metal, stone, minerals, he adores. Craft Alchemy, Profession Metallurgist. Creating-as-worship.
Non-optimal and I don't care.
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I LOVE druids (I am one)I see where you are going wrong. Your DnD druid is NOT the same thing as your modern day doodad.
I assume your trying to insult my religion (we get so much of that it's just par for the course honestly *yawn*), but to be honest I don't get your point. I'm talking about Pathfinder druids as described in the Core Rulebook. Not actual druids. Last I checked I couldn't summon a pack of deer to stampede people I didn't like. Not that I would, I have too much respect for the deer.
However the thread has given be some ideas on how to handle this issue. My friends and I are (as you can imagine) respectful of nature on our various paths and the desire to play a true champion of nature in a fantasy setting is something we enjoy.
Here are the helpful suggestions you all have provided:
Spontaneous Casting of all spells
Spontaneous Casting of a domain spell
Choosing a different spontaneous spell from the druid list
So what I'm looking for is helpful suggestions. Not Hate.
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We respectfully disagree with your premises, and your often judgmental tone suggesting we are morally deficient for not agreeing with what a Conjuration(summoning) entails, and further, what our individual Druids world views must be to meet with your criteria.
You have continually dismissed any idea that did not agree with your own, and helped to foster an antagonistic interplay. I don't really condone posters going over the line, but I do understand them.
You can play it any way you want and no skin off of our... Noses. No one of us appreciates your treating us as morally deficient because we don't agree with your take in a Fantasy. Roleplaying. Game.
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Cole, you didn't come here for help, you came here to foist your beliefs off on others and then get help. That's how you chose to write the first post of this thread, and it's how you've chosen to continue posting here. Instead of saying, "I personally prefer to play druids this way, any tips?", which would have gotten much more helpful answers, you gave your thread a baiting title and declared your interpretation to be the One True Answer.
A Poster Who Loves Getting Constructive Answers Would Not Use Absolutes Unless Looking For A Fight.
I get that you really want help with this, and it sucks that someone took a potshot at your religion—that's not good behavior on these forums. But there's a reason this thread turned into one big argument. You started it as one.
The Alignment of Natural Order Debate: the Advanced form of Paladin Debates. Everyone take 2 shots
The Alignment of Natural Order Debate: the Advanced form of Paladin Debates. Everyone take 2 shots
Of vodka or wild turkey?
I'm inclined to take one of each.
Wild Turkey obviously for the Nature Debate.
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Alternative viewpoint: Summon nature's ally and the animal companion are powers granted by nature to its ally, the druid, to be used to protect the life of that druid and not be eschewed because of some human moral consideration.
This is the way I've always played it.
I feel a bit odd agreeing with my self.
Yes, this was put forward by several posters (including my self LOL)
Cole rejected them because they did not support the end-state he was pushing for.
Honestly, I am not fond of SNA, because it is a pain for everyone in combat, with occasional exceptions, and has no interesting uses really. She does summon on those occasional exceptions.
My Druid has a home-brew feat that allows for non-combatant summoning (1 hour per level), the allies run from fights or die, but they can act as mounts, act as scouts or even till the fields if for some reason the Druid has chosen not to help the farmland return to wildlands.
OK, she really isn't that harsh, mostly.
This story was so cool bro, but it totes needed more dragons.
I liked that we had a real legit druid commenting, gave it some gravitas. Good that it started with such an open and inviting premise and then just stayed calm and relaxed throughout.
Best thing about SNA? Never having to carry rations.
could take Legion of Folded Paper, that works with summon natures ally.
Would give a druid that instead of summoning animals to fight for him, summons origami animals to fight for him.
Not how it works, Shifty. Eating a summons would only last a few rounds.
SNA has few real advantages over SM, but it does have one that's pretty big: The tiger, which, by standard rules (not counting weird AP issues), is not on the Summon Monster list and is objectively better than the lion.