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Overall, I really like it.
I absolutely find parts of it distasteful, as any good person should, but a lot of that is optional.
They certainly ratchet up the difficulty of encounters I've found, which is a good thing. It ain't easy being evil, that's for sure.
I actually like book 3 a lot, despite it's negative reviews, mostly because of a few factors.
1. As my party pointed out, you don't have to take control or shut down The Inferno Gate
2. No truly evil party will allow lying Paladins to live, they'll take their armor cast alignment concealing spells and pretend to be the reinforcements at the gate and use the Glorious Reclamation as fodder to get to the gate.
3. Darellus Fex gets his.
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Mechanically, it's an interesting ride. I can't help noticing that sometimes a Glorious Reclamation base is suspiciously devoid of actual Paladins in order to give our lying evil sleazebags a chance.
They definitely don't skimp on the vile actions. There's one bit in Book 5 which I'll be curious to see how my group handles- they're definitely playing bad people, but the rationalizations* their characters have been using are going to feel thinner and thinner- I live in dread of a semi-face turn from one of them in particular, 'cause... well, unless something major changes, boy's gonna need a new character, even if he stays Lawful Evil, once they get around to the, uh, mass donation section of "how to build your Tathlum."
I think that coming up for air and playing other sessions is a solid way to get through HV- unremitting villainy can really wear a group out!
All in all, I salute Paizo for taking a chance on an Evil AP where your party really isn't a bunch of cool anti-heroes... but I'd be very surprised if we ever see the like again.
*It's interesting because while the AP is absolutely about being the vilest scumbags around, my villains have developed rather odd scruples in some ways- even as they do utterly reprehensible things as a matter of course(the Slayer's "collection" of prisoners is both disturbing and not really fit to talk about on these boards, but suffice it to say, sometimes dead is better).
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It helps to have someone play the comic relief. We have a goblin in our party that's more then willing to do Tammy's Charlie work. :-)
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I still wanna play as the glorious reclamation. :(
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If I ever ran it I'd be playing up the "mustache-twirling badguys" vs. "Dooright Mounty" aspect so the good guys are dumb and comical and the PCs can be over-the-top bad guys that bilk old women of their lives savings and the like. Make it a comedy of evil, even as the PCs do horrible things.
I realy love it! And hope more of the like will be presented in the years to come. Tough i only have read the installements up to the fourth i can easily say this is going to stand among my top 3 AP. I absolutely love volume 4 for all the non combat role play heavy court section. If I must find a problem with the AP it is that you end up pretty much being someonelses underling all the time. Sure you apre left free tu pursue your evil tastes but it's all about someone elses objective. At least IMHO.
And yay for angel slaying!
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So far the only part I'm going to completely omit is part two of book four, but that won't be too difficult.
I'm not going quite as far as out and out incompetence, but I'm definitely going with a more mustache twirling aspect to it.
One of our PCs actually has a mustache to twirl, and is already looking at taking down Fex because he's jellin' over his mustache. :-)
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I love how they made House Thrune the mob. :-)
I will be interested to see what goes wrong on Golarion if the PCs fail (presumably we have to wait for the last book to find out so that the thread just linked can be updated -- Thread Necromancy expected).
My idea is that if the Glorious Reclamation is not stopped, it gets hijacked by the meteoric rise of the Demonic State of Isger and Cheliax and converts the region into a second Worldwound that is even worse than the original. I wonder if Hell's Vengeance can be played as the PCs being tragic fallen heroes (rather than just out-of-the-box villains) that are forced into the service of Evil to prevent an even greater Evil from taking hold.
They actually cover how the rest of the region reacts to the Glorious Reclamation winning in book five.
My particular favorite is Nidal. :-)
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I wasn't looking forward to this AP.
But, after reading through the issues I have, my opinion has worsened, if anything.
The AP tries way to hard to push the "Cheliax is our awesome spheshul sneuawxflayke that can't do wrong. Love them. LOVE THEM."
That and during this and the buildup in Hell's Rebels they made the Glorius Reclamation not only come across as good guys (duh) but also cool. Pretty much everything the protagonists do in HV comes across more as douchebaggy than cool or interesting. Reading over how everything plays out it doesn't give me, from the perspective of a player, a feeling of accomplishment or succeeding. It just makes me feel sorry for everyone who isn't allied with the protagonists (and annoyance with those that are).
I'm okay with Evil characters. I'm okay with Evil campaigns. That being said I still want to play a cool/fun/interesting character/campaign no matter the Alignmnet.
If I have to play evil I want to play Ragnar Lothbrok, not Ramsey Bolton.
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I have no idea who either of those people are. :-)
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This is where I have to disagree, pretty emphatically, with Rysky.
I think making it "evil versus diet evil" would have made it a bad AP, honestly. You could easily play whatever evil character or party you want in most other APs for that flavor. (The Viking in our Reign of Winter party was literally named Ragnar Lothbrok, for the record.) The Glorious Reclamation is Good, with a capital G. Not a bunch of lawful neutral guys (who are actually bad men so it's OK to kill them). Paizo wanted to give people the chance to play full-on, capital-E Evil - including killing the righteous heroes they would otherwise be allied with.
I also strongly disagree that it was some sort of... um...
"Cheliax is our awesome spheshul sneuawxflayke that can't do wrong. Love them. LOVE THEM."
Yeah.
They wanted a place where evil PCs could fit in without being completely unable to fit into society. Given the nature of most of the Inner Sea, there aren't a lot of good places for publicly evil PCs, unless you want to tie them all to a very specific theme (Nidal would basically require an all-Kuthite party, for example). Cheliax gives them a place where evil PCs have to fit in a little, but can still be open about their darkness. PCs like being able to buy things and rest, I hear.
So I guess my question is... how would you have done the Evil AP?
(I hope this doesn't come off too harshly.)
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Not at all Kali ^w^ (though you will be punished later)
While I would have liked an Evil vs Evil campaign I know that's not what a lot of people would have wanted. I guess the problem with this one is just that they made me like the GR way too much.
And showboating Cheliax is just the impression I got from it. Frankly anything that deals with that place annoys me. It's almost a too perfect evil society. Where nothing can ever amount to anything and everything was always going according to someone else's plans. That thinking gets old really fast.
I actually would have preferred being in a non-evil area. Making you an outlier rather than the expected.
For your questions:
A) Galt? Hunting down someone who stole a final blade?
Taldor? Burn that f%@%er down.
Absalom? You can pretty much do anything here.
Irrisen? Working for Baba Yaga again doing all sort of things would be fun.
Geb? Haven't done much with that place.
B)It'd depend. For Irrisen helping defend the country against Lands of the Linnorm Kings could vary in Alignmnet, but I could see playing in Geb and defending your homeland against Paladins while also working for Arazni to get vengeance against servants of the Whispering Tyrant.
C) Not set it somewhere that is over saturated. Not make the antagonists more likable than the protagonists or their allies. Playing a Daemon worshipping campaign and saying f%$$ all of you! to everywhere else could be fun.
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I'm pretty sure nobody likes the Glorious Reclamation (at least according to our most recent polls).
Besides, I just want it more.
I wouldn't really want the first adventure path set in GALT!!!! to be the evil adventure path.
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The other thing about setting it in Cheliax is, well... you aren't ruining any place particularly nice...
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There are more evil places and organizations than just Cheliax and Thrune in Golarion.
And I specifically didn't mention the Worldwound cause we had Wrath of the Righteous set there (I know I said Irrisen but RoW was only partly set there).
As for not ruining anything, I guess that's why I also don't like it. You're effectively not changing or achieving anything like you would in the other APs, but enforcing the status quo.
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You're effectively not changing or achieving anything like you would in the other APs, but enforcing the status quo.
I dunno, this particular point is a bit... Lots of the APs are about maintaining the status quo.
EDIT: Note that not liking it is still a perfectly reasonable position- as I noted earlier, I doubt this sort of AP will be repeated, since it really leaves the PCs as the least admirable people on the board.
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Really, the best way to do a "change things" Evil game is an Evil Kingmaker style game - set in that region and conquering various regions deliberately and with malice.
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I wasn't looking forward to this AP.
But, after reading through the issues I have, my opinion has worsened, if anything.
The AP tries way to hard to push the "Cheliax is our awesome spheshul sneuawxflayke that can't do wrong. Love them. LOVE THEM."
Abrogail is getting what Elminster got way back when.
Elminster used to be a high powered wizard who had abilities and powers that a high level wizard would probably have and within the realm of what PCs could become. "You too could be a mighty wizard/cleric/etc!'
As time went on, Ed Greenwood used him more and more as a self-insert and piled on even more abilities just so he can't be killed and bang hot women and appeared everywhere with transparent disguises 'I am not Elminster, even though everyone can tell' He was soon joined by Drizzit as creator's pets. Abrogail has these whacked out abilities and artifacts that put her in video game boss territory(Meaning the abilities you often use are outright negated or work so little that you are better off just stabbing it in the face)
Despite it's flaws, Way of the Wicked puts it right up front that your PCs are evil and are going to do things that are better left unsaid. Cheliax tries hard but beyond a few parts never really cuts loose with evil since NPCs often say 'Don't go killing everyone, we still need this town.'
Way of the Wicked:Dude, step it up, we poisoned a keep, set the troops at each other's throats and opened the gates to a bugbear horde. We'll just repopulate with loyal citizens.
Or perhaps there should be more brutal honesty where the NPCs make no bones whatsoever about enslaving entire races, wiping out entire towns and so on, law and order comes after the war machine crushes everything into fertilizer.
Not at all Kali ^w^ (though you will be punished later)
While I would have liked an Evil vs Evil campaign I know that's not what a lot of people would have wanted. I guess the problem with this one is just that they made me like the GR way too much.
And showboating Cheliax is just the impression I got from it. Frankly anything that deals with that place annoys me. It's almost a too perfect evil society. Where nothing can ever amount to anything and everything was always going according to someone else's plans. That thinking gets old really fast.
That was kind of my complaint about Council of Thieves and now that we have more Cheliax material brings up a big point.
Ilnerik came to Westcrown at the bequest of House Thrune, which makes him a trusted agent to do the whole Shadowcurse. By killing him the PCs committed Treason and there really isn't any indication that he was breaking off so The PCs would get their heads stepped on by the navy since they have been engaged in open rebellion(Raiding the Mayor's manor, breaking into Delvehaven,attacking Hellknights, poking Pit Fiends with sticks) People have been excruciated for less.
{. . .}
They wanted a place where evil PCs could fit in without being completely unable to fit into society. Given the nature of most of the Inner Sea, there aren't a lot of good places for publicly evil PCs, unless you want to tie them all to a very specific theme (Nidal would basically require an all-Kuthite party, for example). Cheliax gives them a place where evil PCs have to fit in a little, but can still be open about their darkness. PCs like being able to buy things and rest, I hear.
Cheliax strongly leans towards the Infernal type of Evil. Obviously from Hell's Vengeance they are willing to use other types, but in the long run, all must submit to the Infernal -- it is a core part of their ideology. I wouldn't be surprised if Nidal would be similar in that regard, although probably even more treacherous to get through.
So I guess my question is... how would you have done the Evil AP?
Where do you set it, if you don't like Cheliax?
Skull & Shackles seems to be at least of enhanced friendliness to Evil characters, if not absolutely an Evil AP, and it is set in the Shackles; it seems to be reasonably popular, so this works. It requires a pirate theme, but that leaves a lot of latitude. If you don't want to reuse the Shackles, Riddleport and its extended vicinity could serve the same purpose.
Galt would certainly work, although I understand the objections of some above to making the first Galt AP an Evil AP. This probably would leave even more latitude than Skull & Shackles or Hell's Vengeance.
Razmiran would certainly have a use for cooperative Evil characters. They would need to have a pro-Razmir theme outwardly, but under the robes, that would leave a good bit of leeway, except that any worship of actual deities would have to be done in secret. (Although Razmiran bans worship of anything other than Razmir, it is not known how competent the enforcers of this are at rooting out divine classes.)
Geb has already been mentioned above, but I'll mention it again for the prospect of an AP in which you have to protect the production and trade in Soylent Green . . . .
Who are the opposition? Are they capital-G Good? Neutral? Villains vs. villains?
What would you do to make the best Evil AP?
{. . .}
I am still wondering if it is workable to run Hell's vengeance as a scenario in which the PC villains started out as tragic heroes, up against opposition that consists of tragic heroes of a different type, that are doomed to bring about thte rise of even greater villains if they succeed, hence requiring the PCs villainy to stop them.
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I confess I was one of those not excited by an evil AP. I want to play paladins, not kill them. I went into Hell's Vengeance with as open a mind as I could, hoping to be converted. I was not converted.
It wasn't even the evil that turned me off (though I didn't really like that). I feel like the AP lacks a narrative. The PCs are just going from place to place being evil, with generally no more interesting a goal than "take back this town" or "collect these plot coupons. I don't get a feel of fighting a war, and I don't get a feeling of a story.
I'm not a fan of the way the good guys are portrayed. I feel like their flaws are over-emphasized, as if to say, "No, but really it's okay to kill these guys."
I hate to be all negative, so some stuff I did like:
The boss of book one. A Kuthonite who found salvation in Iomedae? And then the PCs use the prejudice against her to quell the remains of the rebellion? That's pure evil right there, and beautifully tragic.
The group of faceless stalkers who the PCs can ally with or not. Fun and creative.
A stat block for Abrogail Thrune! I was excited for that.
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I wasn't looking forward to this AP.
But, after reading through the issues I have, my opinion has worsened, if anything.
The AP tries way to hard to push the "Cheliax is our awesome spheshul sneuawxflayke that can't do wrong. Love them. LOVE THEM."
***
Despite it's flaws, Way of the Wicked puts it right up front that your PCs are evil and are going to do things that are better left unsaid. Cheliax tries hard but beyond a few parts never really cuts loose with evil since NPCs often say 'Don't go killing everyone, we still need this town.'
Way of the Wicked:Dude, step it up, we poisoned a keep, set the troops at each other's throats and opened the gates to a bugbear horde. We'll just repopulate with loyal citizens.
Or perhaps there should be more brutal honesty where the NPCs make no bones whatsoever about enslaving entire races, wiping out entire towns and so on, law and order comes after the war machine crushes everything into fertilizer.
Way of the Wicked is a 3pp AP set in a 3pp Setting kinda build just for it.
Kinda agree with the authors' pets thing.
I absolutely hate Way of the Wicked, the worst adventure path I've ever seen. I'll never understand why people like it.
But to each their own. :-)
The ending was whiffed with I think, the creator suddenly realizing they made something really evil and urging players to lose so Good can win
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You're effectively not changing or achieving anything like you would in the other APs, but enforcing the status quo.I dunno, this particular point is a bit... Lots of the APs are about maintaining the status quo.
** spoiler omitted **
EDIT: Note that not liking it is still a perfectly reasonable position- as I noted earlier, I doubt this sort of AP will be repeated, since it really leaves the PCs as the least admirable people on the board.
Hmm fair points, I guess it's just the difference between playing them and actually reading them, though there are a few things,
It just feels like HV is too much about keeping the status quo than the others.
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Do you even know the meaning of testing? Paizo probably didn't want a repeat of WotR and Iron Gods in testing too many new things at once.There are more evil places and organizations than just Cheliax and Thrune in Golarion.
And I specifically didn't mention the Worldwound cause we had Wrath of the Righteous set there (I know I said Irrisen but RoW was only partly set there).
As for not ruining anything, I guess that's why I also don't like it. You're effectively not changing or achieving anything like you would in the other APs, but enforcing the status quo.
*rolls yes*
Pretty much ALL of the APs are testing/experimental in some form or another.
And too many things? WotR was the Mythic AP, Iron Gods (which was received quite well actually) was the high tech AP. Wasn't "too much" in there beyond what they were advertised as.
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You're effectively not changing or achieving anything like you would in the other APs, but enforcing the status quo.I dunno, this particular point is a bit... Lots of the APs are about maintaining the status quo.
** spoiler omitted **
EDIT: Note that not liking it is still a perfectly reasonable position- as I noted earlier, I doubt this sort of AP will be repeated, since it really leaves the PCs as the least admirable people on the board.
Hmm fair points, I guess it's just the difference between playing them and actually reading them, though there are a few things, ** spoiler omitted **
It just feels like HV is too much about keeping the status quo than the others.
I think that is the point. Thrune WANTS things to be nice and quiet. As Roose Bolton would say 'A peaceful land and a quiet people.'
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The main thing I'm dissapointed about is this:
And by making APs in Cheliax that do not do this, they've effectively said "no" to this.
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
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Do you even know the meaning of testing? Paizo probably didn't want a repeat of WotR and Iron Gods in testing too many new things at once.There are more evil places and organizations than just Cheliax and Thrune in Golarion.
And I specifically didn't mention the Worldwound cause we had Wrath of the Righteous set there (I know I said Irrisen but RoW was only partly set there).
As for not ruining anything, I guess that's why I also don't like it. You're effectively not changing or achieving anything like you would in the other APs, but enforcing the status quo.
*rolls yes*
Pretty much ALL of the APs are testing/experimental in some form or another.
And too many things? WotR was the Mythic AP, Iron Gods (which was received quite well actually) was the high tech AP. Wasn't "too much" in there beyond what they were advertised as.
Both Mythic Adventure and WotR felt rushed, well, more rushed than they actually were, WotR was almost a second playtesting of the Mythic rules, that what I meant by "testing too many things at once.
Hopefully, people will give constructive reviews and critics of Hell's Vengeance.
And remember that Paizo stuff is PG-13, so there are locations that would be hard to use for their first foray into Evil AP, unless they made it in the humorous style of the "We Be Goblin" modules line.
The world neutral Core Rulebook line may try to stay PG-13 but the Golarion material frequently heads into R - AO territory, more so for the modules and APs (this one is especially an AO adventure I believe).
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The AP tries way to hard to push the "Cheliax is our awesome spheshul sneuawxflayke that can't do wrong. Love them. LOVE THEM."
How would you say they do that?
That and during this and the buildup in Hell's Rebels they made the Glorius Reclamation not only come across as good guys (duh) but also cool.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but what did you think was cool about the Glorious Reclamation?
I absolutely hate Way of the Wicked, the worst adventure path I've ever seen. I'll never understand why people like it.
But to each their own. :-)
How come you don't like Way of the Wicked?
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I'm with Cpt. Yesterman on WotW. Between the purlpe-prose-ish writing writing style ("And lo and beholdeth. The villains rideth into the villageth. Ze ground zrembles. The weight of their evil deeds hovers over the village like an iron tombstone cover waiting to close." and ridinkolous ending ("Now kids, the whole point of the AP was to show you that evil never wins and that depravity will be punished") it was a chore. I understand the "first full evil AP yay!" appeal, but when you take the rose...evil red-tinted glasses off, it's really nothing special.
I'm with Cpt. Yesterman on WotW. Between the purlpe-prose-ish writing writing style ("And lo and beholdeth. The villains rideth into the villageth. Ze ground zrembles. The weight of their evil deeds hovers over the village like an iron tombstone cover waiting to close." and ridinkolous ending ("Now kids, the whole point of the AP was to show you that evil never wins and that depravity will be punished") it was a chore. I understand the "first full evil AP yay!" appeal, but when you take the rose...evil red-tinted glasses off, it's really nothing special.
Okay, I see the issue with the purple prose, but there are actually two different endings: one where you win, and one where you lose. Gary gives the GM the option of the villains winning normally or making the encounter so hard that it's impossible to win. And considering he wrote an epilogue about what happens immediately after the PCs win, he's not opposed to having them be victorious.
I'm preparing for the campaign at the moment (should be starting in about 3 weeks) and I've read the content so far only once, so if anything I bring up is incorrect feel free to correct me, but I'd like to bring up some points that irk me a bit.
First off, my players are tossing character ideas around at the moment and they have some trouble figuring out why they should start their journey in Longacre. What would draw anyone, who isn't a local, to that town? The town doesn't feel particular special or interesting, or doesn't offer any perspective on job opportunities, etc. It feels like the reason for the characters to start there, is because the AP starts there, not much more. I think the player's handbook doesn't setup the city or the character motivation as well as other handbooks did.
Which leads me to my next point: Character motivation and agency. It feels like the AP is tailored too much to loyalists, who'd love to defend their country and serve House Thrune. Many ideas my players brought up to me, will sooner or later conflict with House Thrune and the oath they are supposed to take (for example I have at least one aspiring Hellknight, who can't pledge to Thrune, and one wannabe Lich, who is in need of his soul). I know that the books say that they don't have to take the oath (with which I agree), but it will probably result in a conflict of interest between the characters who have taken it and those who haven't. Having a natural divide in a group can lead to tension and tension between evil characters is rarely a good thing. I don't mind conflict between characters per se, I just hope that it doesn't escalate, because they feel the need to be evil.
What I like about the AP so far are the choices the PCs are allowed to make throughout the AP. As someone mentioned already, keeping the portal open or closing it, is a good example of that, but I wanted also too add my favorite: Choosing sides between the two noble people in "For Queen & Empire" (the whole book actually looks fantastic, my favorite book out the AP so far).
While I'm looking forward to the vile acts committed by the PCs in the "Scourge of the Godclaw", running the Citadel is something I'm not looking forward to, because it looks kinda tedious to run.
So overall, the AP as a whole looks very good to me, but Longacre looks kinda bland, so I expect a rocky start and I foresee player agency becoming a potential problem in my group.
I'm with Cpt. Yesterman on WotW. Between the purlpe-prose-ish writing writing style ("And lo and beholdeth. The villains rideth into the villageth. Ze ground zrembles. The weight of their evil deeds hovers over the village like an iron tombstone cover waiting to close." and ridinkolous ending ("Now kids, the whole point of the AP was to show you that evil never wins and that depravity will be punished") it was a chore. I understand the "first full evil AP yay!" appeal, but when you take the rose...evil red-tinted glasses off, it's really nothing special.Okay, I see the issue with the purple prose, but there are actually two different endings: one where you win, and one where you lose. Gary gives the GM the option of the villains winning normally or making the encounter so hard that it's impossible to win. And considering he wrote an epilogue about what happens immediately after the PCs win, he's not opposed to having them be victorious.
Also, it's not really an EVIL campaign, it's a Lawful Evil campaign.
There were some other issues, but that was years ago, and someone else has it, so I can't be as specific as I'd like to be.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but what did you think was cool about the Glorious Reclamation?
They are a group of holy knights who fight one of the most powerful nations in the world, which is backed by Hell itself. They have angels, a gold dragon, and a .
Note: I don't actually have any of the books, because I don't really like evil campaigns.