Arcanist Vs wizard


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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So, as the title asks? Which do you think is better (or prefer) and why?

To keep it a bit more focused.

-which class do you feel works better mechanically and it's stronger.

-which class do you feel has more flavor and is easier to RP/has more easily used RP options/ideas.


A third level Wizard can cast Invisiblity. A third level Arcanist can not.
A fifth level Wizard can cast Fly and Haste. A fifth level Arcanist can not.
A seventh level Wizard can cast Scry and Phantom Chariot. A seventh level Arcanist can not.
Etc.Etc.

While people may say that Quick Study is a great asset to the Arcanist, I say that it's a requirment to stay on-par with the Wizard's versatility. Take a look at 4th level: Both have two 2nd level spell slots. But the Arcanist can only prepare 1 type of spell.

Exploits are cool. But nothing compares to the Divination/Foresight School (which the School Understanding Exploit has trouble mimicking). Also, the number of Exploits starts to diminish when you take a look at what the Wizard gains for free: Familiar, Scribe Scroll and Arcane School occupies the 3 first Arcanist Exploits, by that time the Wizard has already gained his first Bonus Feat (at level 5). It's not untill 9th level that an Arcanist can catch up with an equivalent Bonus Feat and Quick Study (and still have a sub-par School Understanding compared to the full class feature). The Wizard is ahead again at level 10 with his new Bonus Feat, which is caught up again at level 11 by the Arcanist. By this point, you're almost through an entire PFS career and half an AP.


exploiter wizard! Gets the perks of faster spells and the neat exploits. And the trade is just for your school

lv1 take familiar exploit. You now have a Reservoir for you lv1 school power. at lv5 and every 4 levels you get a free exploit.

drawback? less spells per day.


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I like the Arcanist better.

Yeah, getting spells 1 level later sucks, but its casting system feels a lot more intuitive in my opinion.


Technically, I believe (the common consensus is that) the wizard is better mechanically. This is mainly due to the aforementioned faster spellprogression, but the other odds and ends still do play their part.

That said I vastly prefer the Arcanist. I love their semi-Vancian casting mechanic and I feel the exploits are just more fun than most of the wizard's features (which the Arcanist could potentially copy).

In terms of flavor I oddly enough consider both of them to be very bland by themselves, possibly due to the incredibly broad scope of their spells. It really is up to the player to narrow it down (or play it up!) and define the individual's flavor.

Of course... I play an Arcanist with 1 lvl of Sorcerer with Wizard VMC sooo.... Really?! Don't choose, have it all! Thats what real Gods... I mean... Mages do!


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Even though on a level-by-level basis wizards are the most powerful option, arcanists are indeed very flavorful, and they will still be plenty powerful enough in comparison to non-spellcasters. Sure, they'll get fewer spells and a level later. But they'll still be fun.

The game isn't about maximizing power. It's about having fun adventures. So go with the arcanist, and have fun with it!


Wizard is probably better in long run, especially if you have a lot if system mastery. Arcanist looks a little more forgiving and interesting though.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The problem with this comparison is the same as the one between the Wizard and the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer and Arcanist are ham strung to get less spells (though they can cast any spell at the time of casting) and have access to higher level spells at later levels. This is to make the old Vancian man still be relevant more than a balance act.

It is a crutch to have two casting mechanics in the game that do not really belong in the same game. Which is better? It depends on what resources the player wants to expend, as the Wizard will use more outside resources than the Spontaneous caster, being more dependent on scrolls, wands and such. It depends on how prepared the player is to work on memorization of multiple spells and what Archtypes are used.

I favor any class that uses the cleaner mechanic rather than "fire and forget."

My two coppers.


They are pretty much equal in power. If the wizard is a 10, then the arcanist is a 9.8 or 9.9 and vice versa. The ability of the player should be your concern because if he can wreck your game with one class he can also do it with the other one.


The arcanist does seem to get better archetypes though. And the generally best wizard archetype is the one that lets it do arcanist things.


Arcanists have a lot of advantages, but I'm not sure it's enough to make up for getting new spell levels a level later, stuck with level 1 spells until level 4, finish the campaign at level 17 and you never see 9th level spells. Exploits are amazing though and the archetypes are pretty good.


Wizards get better spell access and more spells per day if you specialize. That says it all right there.

Some exploits are pretty great, but so are some of the better school powers.

And even if you really love exploits that much, there's an archetype for that, so go pick up Exploiter Wizard and basically invalidate the Arcanist class in the same book it was printed.


Just gonna throw my hat in on the Exploiter Wizard, which I refer to as "the archetype that shouldn't have been printed." Spell progression is a big deal.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

My stance is that the Spontaneous casting mechanic is superior to the old Vancian ways, so anything the Wizard does to mitigate the disadvantage of Memorization, such as Bonded Object or an Archtype, pulls the Wizard closer to being a Sorcerer/Arcanist, or at the very least more like a Arcane Cleric caster, but without healing.

I just don't see a comparison between the two because the mechanics each use is so far apart from one another that any hindrances put upon the superior mechanic will not be enough to warrant going back to the inferior class.

The only reason to take a Wizard class is to multiclass, use an Archtype, or get into a PrC sooner than using the other classes.

The Wizard is also the class that changed the least from 3.5 to Pathfinder in the Core Rulebook. The Sorcerer got beefed up to include the Bloodlines that was an add on after the PHB in 3.5.

Being a combonation of the Sorcerer and the Wizard, the Arcanist might be a preview of what can be done in PF ver2.


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Arcane Addict wrote:
Of course... I play an Arcanist with 1 lvl of Sorcerer with Wizard VMC sooo.... Really?! Don't choose, have it all! Thats what real Gods... I mean... Mages do!

Real gods don't give up access to Immortality.

Real gods play the long game. And by long, I mean eons.


Snowlilly wrote:
Arcane Addict wrote:
Of course... I play an Arcanist with 1 lvl of Sorcerer with Wizard VMC sooo.... Really?! Don't choose, have it all! Thats what real Gods... I mean... Mages do!

Real gods don't give up access to Immortality.

Real gods play the long game. And by long, I mean eons.

Ahahaha! I've actually thought about that! The wizard VMC gets you a discovery at 15th level. Retrain it at level 20 and BAM! Immortality, baby!


Snowlilly wrote:
Arcane Addict wrote:
Of course... I play an Arcanist with 1 lvl of Sorcerer with Wizard VMC sooo.... Really?! Don't choose, have it all! Thats what real Gods... I mean... Mages do!

Real gods don't give up access to Immortality.

Real gods play the long game. And by long, I mean eons.

The wizard discovery doesn't actually prevent you from dying of old age tho.


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swoosh wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Arcane Addict wrote:
Of course... I play an Arcanist with 1 lvl of Sorcerer with Wizard VMC sooo.... Really?! Don't choose, have it all! Thats what real Gods... I mean... Mages do!

Real gods don't give up access to Immortality.

Real gods play the long game. And by long, I mean eons.

The wizard discovery doesn't actually prevent you from dying of old age tho.

Luckily, being dead does not prevent you from casting spells.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't feel this is quite as clear cut as people are making it out to be. Some of the arcanist exploits are quite powerful.

I feel that the Arcanist is easier to run well than the Wizard or Sorcerer. You don't need to know exactly how many of each spell you need like the Wizard nor are you locked into a fixed set of spells like the Sorcerer. Some people say you get the worst of both worlds, but for some it would be the best of both.

As people have pointed out, the greatest weakness is the limited number of spells per day. The other issue is that depending on archetype and exploits chosen, you may want or need to have a good Charisma as well and Intellect. It can require you to spread your attributes out slightly more -- which isn't always a bad thing.

In the end, I believe it will depend much more on what the person playing the character is comfortable with than any class differences between the three.


swoosh wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Arcane Addict wrote:
Of course... I play an Arcanist with 1 lvl of Sorcerer with Wizard VMC sooo.... Really?! Don't choose, have it all! Thats what real Gods... I mean... Mages do!

Real gods don't give up access to Immortality.

Real gods play the long game. And by long, I mean eons.

The wizard discovery doesn't actually prevent you from dying of old age tho.

What makes you think that? I actually think thats pretty much all it does... No perpetual youth, no immunity to sickness or disease and of course no immunity to bodily harm. What else is there but not dying from old age to make this worthwhile (and I know that its technically a waste to choose this Discovery anyway. Its purely a flavor thing.)?


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It only does what it says. What it says it does is eliminate physical aging penalties. Dying from max age is not a penalty, so it's not prevented by this.

That said, as written this should be a level 10 discovery. There are all day spells that provide the same effect.


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Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

It only does what it says. What it says it does is eliminate physical aging penalties. Dying from max age is not a penalty, so it's not prevented by this.

That said, as written this should be a level 10 discovery. There are all day spells that provide the same effect.

It also says you discover a cure for aging, which to me means you don't age anymore at all. You could argue that is purely flavortext and, consequently, meaningless, I would usually do that too. But... Then I look at the name, and other abilities, like the Druid's and Monk's, which specify you will die whereas this one does not, and finally the level at which it is attainable and then I find it hard to actually stand by such an argument.

That said, if it is like you say, 10th level does seem far more appropriate.

Regardless, this is how my table plays it... Or, well, would, if we'd ever reach that point! We like it our way :)


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Not to derail further, but I agree with Arcane Addict. Called Immortality, it says you have stopped aging. And while that could mean you look and act young, it's hard to believe that's a power a level 20 wizard has to devote resources into learning. I mean, at that level, they can create permanent demiplanes where time doesn't pass.

I'd say they become immortal.

I really like Arcanists, but I'm having a hard time building one. The best I could do was an Occultist Arcanist, VMC Foresight Divination Wizard. Elf with the Overwhelming Magic racial trait, to get Augment Summoning at level 1, Superior Summoning at 5. Pragmatic Activator for high UMD, Staff-Like Wand discovery and craft wand. Maybe a 1 level dip into crossblooded sorcerer, Orc/Draconic with Blood Havoc for lots of extra damage on blast spells (and maybe a small handful of hand-crafted blasting wands), and retrain Draconic to Abyssal at Level 15 so I get 3 Fiendish summons with my highest SLA Summon Monster.

I think the Arcanist has the only effective counterspell in the game, and I like it. I just wish they got more points in their pool (my build only gains 12 points a day at level 20, but would burn 3 level 8 spells for another 24 points).

Even had room in the build for a staff that casts Shield other (Extend Spell, Familiar Spell), and have an Arbiter Inevitable (probably in a cage, cause all he'd do is lay unconscious), so my frail self only takes half damage on stuff.


Plus, with Plane Shift as level 5 spell, I can have it on as a contingency, to take me to my timeless demiplane if I die. I know with 3.5, you could have Raise Dead spells as traps, dunno about Pathfinder. If it has them, then I die, shift away, and come back fully healed and fully charged with all my spells (with another contingency, too) :)


Mechanical Pear wrote:


I think the Arcanist has the only effective counterspell in the game, and I like it. I just wish they got more points in their pool (my build only gains 12 points a day at level 20, but would burn 3 level 8 spells for another 24 points).

The arcanist is not burning an arcane point per spell level so for those 3 8th level spells you should only be burning 3 points.

Quote:
By expending 1 point from her arcane reservoir, the arcanist can attempt to counter a spell as it is being cast.


wraithstrike wrote:
Mechanical Pear wrote:


I think the Arcanist has the only effective counterspell in the game, and I like it. I just wish they got more points in their pool (my build only gains 12 points a day at level 20, but would burn 3 level 8 spells for another 24 points).

The arcanist is not burning an arcane point per spell level so for those 3 8th level spells you should only be burning 3 points.

Quote:
By expending 1 point from her arcane reservoir, the arcanist can attempt to counter a spell as it is being cast.

Pear is referring to points in his/her arcane pool, and the ability to consume spell slots to increase how much is available.

Scarab Sages

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swoosh wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Arcane Addict wrote:
Of course... I play an Arcanist with 1 lvl of Sorcerer with Wizard VMC sooo.... Really?! Don't choose, have it all! Thats what real Gods... I mean... Mages do!

Real gods don't give up access to Immortality.

Real gods play the long game. And by long, I mean eons.

The wizard discovery doesn't actually prevent you from dying of old age tho.
Immortality
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Artanthos wrote:


Notice any difference in the wording?
A wizard's immortality is just that. The chance to live forever. With appropriate secondary precautions, a wizard becomes effectively unkillable.

Correct.


Saethori wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Mechanical Pear wrote:


I think the Arcanist has the only effective counterspell in the game, and I like it. I just wish they got more points in their pool (my build only gains 12 points a day at level 20, but would burn 3 level 8 spells for another 24 points).

The arcanist is not burning an arcane point per spell level so for those 3 8th level spells you should only be burning 3 points.

Quote:
By expending 1 point from her arcane reservoir, the arcanist can attempt to counter a spell as it is being cast.
Pear is referring to points in his/her arcane pool, and the ability to consume spell slots to increase how much is available.

Ok, I see what is being said now.


Mechanical Pear wrote:
Plus, with Plane Shift as level 5 spell, I can have it on as a contingency, to take me to my timeless demiplane if I die. I know with 3.5, you could have Raise Dead spells as traps, dunno about Pathfinder.

I'm fully cognizant of the 3.5 trap exploits, I, nor any DM I ever knew, allowed that crap.


If you have a timeless demiplane and plane shift as a contingency, I would assume you would have a 10th level cleric simulacrum available.

Neither of which a paranoid caster will rely upon. Astral Projection from the demiplane is much safer.


Can someone explain to me about these 3.5 trap exploits work? First time hearing it.... But I bet it is something Pun-Pun the kobold approves of.


Klay Fireheart wrote:
Can someone explain to me about these 3.5 trap exploits work? First time hearing it.... But I bet it is something Pun-Pun the kobold approves of.

There were rules for traps to cast spells when triggered and infinite resets were possible. If you could afford it infinite Wishes were available via traps.


Spell using traps? Then again my love of 3.5 traps was the realistic traps and the two prestige classes that made them useful in battle. I loved using snare traps and throwing around combat traps and landmines.


Through archtypeing wizards can get exploits and arcanists can get full schools, so this evens out.

It pretty much comes down to number and levels of spells available and how well the player is at preparation.

With a wizard, you have a definite edge if you know what's coming. If you can prep the right spells, you are awesome. If you can't, you're just some guy with scrolls and wands. Leaving spells open gives you more flexibility during the day at an expense of having less readied for any specific encounter.

The arcanist has flexibility to use the different things he needs within what he has prepped, and can even change in battle if needed. Beyond what they have, they also have the same options for scrolls and wands as a wizard. They don't get the free scribe scroll feat, but they can get it as one of their exploits.

One issue with preparation is that some GMs are more generous than others at giving out information about future challenges.


Wizard is more powerful.
Arcanist is better.
(And Sorcerer is now just inferior to Arcanist - Only to be played for Flavor.)

;)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Aren't reusable spell traps still around in Pathfinder?


Neo2151 wrote:

Wizard is more powerful.

Arcanist is better.
(And Sorcerer is now just inferior to Arcanist - Only to be played for Flavor.)

;)

unless you want to nuke the world, in which case you take crossblooded sorc 1 for orc and dragon bloodlines and then 19 levels of wizard so you can throw 10d6+20 fireballs n such all day long

Sovereign Court

Frogsplosion wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

Wizard is more powerful.

Arcanist is better.
(And Sorcerer is now just inferior to Arcanist - Only to be played for Flavor.)

;)

unless you want to nuke the world, in which case you take crossblooded sorc 1 for orc and dragon bloodlines and then 19 levels of wizard so you can throw 10d6+20 fireballs n such all day long

10d6+30 if you go Evoker.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And a whole lot more if you take Spell Perfection and lay on the metamagic (especially if you have the magical lineage trait).

Empower Spell
Intensify Spell
Maximize Spell

9th-level spell slot that deals (135 + [15d6+45]/2) damage followed by one with...

Empower Spell
Intensify
Quicken Spell

...for another (15d6+45*1.5) damage.

You might even be able to take it further with a metamagic rod in hand.

Sovereign Court

Neo2151 wrote:

Wizard is more powerful.

Arcanist is better.
(And Sorcerer is now just inferior to Arcanist - Only to be played for Flavor.)

;)

Besides the crossblooded dip as mentioned above, there are a few niche builds which can't be done with the Arcanist.

Ex: The ultimate enchanter DCs are found with a Kitsune/Fey build.

Plus going Tiefling/Sorcerer (abyssal or infernal) can get +1 higher DC in general.


The arcanist's biggest weakness is that the exploiter wizard gets to poach half their class features.


A good wizard will trump a good arcanist. It is much easier to be an ok arcanist than an ok wizard.


Gimme a sorceror anyday.


strayshift wrote:
Gimme a sorceror anyday.

I'm curious. Why?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Because they're better, that's why. ;)


Wizards and arcanists are both better than sorcerers and arcanists can even grab a bloodline if they want.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Sorry, but being treated as a 1st-level sorcerer only for the 1st-level bloodline power is not nearly the same thing, even if you can expend resources for temporary boosts.


I think he's talking about the bloodline archetype for arcanist.


Sorcerer will always have the Razmiran Priest Archetype to fall back on. Arcanist post ACG-errata just makes me sad though.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think Arcanist vs Sorcerer is not as clear cut as people make it out to be. They're both on the same spell progression so the sorcerer's advantage in spells per day is a lot more impactful than it is when comparing them to the wizard. The arcanist definitely has a huge advantage in potential versatility with quick study and a spellbook, but human sorcerers aren't exactly starved for spells known either.

Bloodline mutations are pretty sweet too and arcanists can't pick them up, though I guess blaster arcanists can grab school understanding evocation which is also nice.

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