Grapple, Move and Attack of Opportunity ...


Rules Questions


I'm a front rank monk and I've grappled my opponent. My party is in 2 by 2 formation and there's 8 of us. I'm positioned on the front right of the party. During my turn I want to move down the right flank with my grappled opponent. Do I incur an attack of opportunity from my grappled opponent? I step one diagonal back and 2 more squares down for my 15' move while I've got my opponent grappled. Will he now provoke attacks of opportunity from my party mates for each square I move? Do I get a say on which adjacent square he's in while I move? If it's relative to position before the move let's say hes in front of me. But by stepping back and bringing him with me in the same position he was when he started he's going through several squares that my party mates threaten.

Is there an official rule clarification on this already that I may have missed? Appreciate any help!

Sovereign Court

If you move out of someone's threatened area, normally, you provoke attacks of opportunity. You can't combine maintaining a grapple with a Withdraw, although you could combine it with a 5ft step.

Involuntary movement normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, unless some specific ability is used (see Greater Bull Rush for example).

So that means that you might provoke while your victim won't.

---

CRB > Combat > Grappling wrote:
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.

It seems reasonable that since you can move your victim to any spot you like that meets the conditions, you also can control which spaces he passes through on the way there. After all, you could stop moving earlier and he'd be right where you wanted.

While your friends don't get AoOs, they could Ready actions for the moment your victim passes by at a particularly good spot (say, a flanking moment).


Baztuz wrote:
Do I incur an attack of opportunity from my grappled opponent?

For as long as your opponent is Grappled, he gets no Attacks of Opportunity.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Involuntary movement normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, unless some specific ability is used (see Greater Bull Rush for example).

Are you sure that involuntary movement normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity?

archivesofnethys, Greater Bull Rush, Normal wrote:
Creatures moved by bull rush do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

That's true for being Bull Rushed, but that does not clearly apply to being moved via some other means.

The Combat Section doesn't specify that the movement has to be voluntary.

Core Rulebook, Combat, Attacks of Opportunity wrote:
Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.

I guess you can say that when you have been moved, you are performing no actions at all, let alone a distracting action. But moving out of a Threatened Square has been singled out as separate from taking actions. And if you have been moved, doesn't that mean you moved? It seems fair to say that someone who is Grappled would be pretty darn distracted, and if they are also moving--even if only by being moved--shouldn't they provoke attacks of Opportunity?

I think so, but I can see it both ways.


From your other thread where you asked similar/exact questions:

"You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus."

You get a choice to where he is adjacent to you at the END of your movement. While moving, I'd say he stays adjacent to you in the same relative position when the movement started. So get the rest of the party to position themselves or be prepared to do some zigzagging.

For the movement, both the successful grappler's movement and the grapplee's forced movement because of the sustained grapple check would provoke AoOs from non-grappled opponents of the grappler/grapplee. While most of the forced movement by maneuvers (bull rush, reposition, I can't think of another example) don't provoke without a Greater version of the maneuver feat allowing it, each maneuver had to specifically state such a case of not-provoking. The grapple-move action does not state such an exception.

The Concordance

Core Rulebook, Combat, Attacks of Opportunity wrote:
Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.

Actions are what provoke Attacks of Opportunity. In this case, the creature being moved is not taking an action and thus not provoking. The Improved Combag Maneuver feats are simply reiterating the normal rule, and their Greater versions allow allies to make special AoOs not normally allowed.

During your movement, you provoke as normal. Grappled creatures cannot take AoOs so you are safe from the one you are grappling.

Sovereign Court

I agree with ShieldLawrence. Being moved is not the same as moving. Only the action of moving has rules saying it provokes.


ShieldLawrence wrote:
Core Rulebook, Combat, Attacks of Opportunity wrote:
Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.

Actions are what provoke Attacks of Opportunity. In this case, the creature being moved is not taking an action and thus not provoking. The Improved Combag Maneuver feats are simply reiterating the normal rule, and their Greater versions allow allies to make special AoOs not normally allowed.

During your movement, you provoke as normal. Grappled creatures cannot take AoOs so you are safe from the one you are grappling.

In the passage you quoted, it lists moving as separate from taking an action.

Moving might specifically mean taking the Move Action, but

if you are being moved, you are moving, right?

My salt shaker is moving across the table when my wife is passing it to me, right?

It is clearly specified that being Bull Rushed out of a Threatened Square doesn't provoke attacks of Opportunity, but being Greater Bull Rushed does. But that doesn't necessarily apply to all kinds of involontary movement.

You might be right, but can we bring any more evidence to bear on the subject?

The Concordance

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@Scott Wilhelmina: There is a colon. It links the moving and other actions phrases to the "two kinds of actions" phrase. It also uses the number "two" because "moving out of a threatened square" and "performing certain actions" make up the two necessary for the statement to be true.

I don't see another way to read that.

Quote:
Two kinds of ice cream can be purchased: chocolate and vanilla.

What are the "two kinds of ice cream?" (1)Chocolate and (2)vanilla.

Does this phrase allow me to purchase types of chocolate that are not ice cream? No.

Quote:
Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.

What are the "two kinds of actions?" (1)Moving out of a threatened square and (2)performing certain actions within a threatened square.

Does this phrase state that moving out of a threatened square provokes when it isn't an action? No.


ShieldLawrence wrote:

@Scott Wilhelmina: There is a colon. It links the moving and other actions phrases to the "two kinds of actions" phrase. It also uses the number "two" because "moving out of a threatened square" and "performing certain actions" make up the two necessary for the statement to be true.

I don't see another way to read that.

Quote:
Two kinds of ice cream can be purchased: chocolate and vanilla.

What are the "two kinds of ice cream?" (1)Chocolate and (2)vanilla.

Does this phrase allow me to purchase types of chocolate that are not ice cream? No.

Quote:
Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.

What are the "two kinds of actions?" (1)Moving out of a threatened square and (2)performing certain actions within a threatened square.

Does this phrase state that moving out of a threatened square provokes when it isn't an action? No.

Good answer.

Even if any move must be made as the result of an action being taken, I haven't seen where the rules specify that the target has to be the initiator, the taker of the moving action. And again, just because I am not taking the Move Move Action to leave a Threatened Square, that doesn't mean I'm not moving.

ShieldLawrence wrote:

What are the "two kinds of ice cream?" (1)Chocolate and (2)vanilla.

Does this phrase allow me to purchase types of chocolate that are not ice cream? No.

No kind of chocolate can be purchased that is not ice cream, but that does not necessarily mean that I paid for my own ice cream. Somebody out there might love me enough to buy me a treat. And love me enough to forcibly grapple me into the ready spears of my enemies. That would do me up a treat!

I think we really need something that says that the target needs to be the initiator of whatever it is that lets he guard down. I don't think that letting your guard down is something that must happen voluntarily.

Core Rulebook, Combat, Attacks of Opportunity wrote:
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action.

And as I said earlier, if I were being Grappled and not in control of the Grapple, in principle, it would be fair to say that my guard would be down as I was being moved past those spear points.

Since greater Bull Rush, Drag, and Reposition net Attacks of Opportunities for your allies, I am starting to think there is no intentional conceit that you must do something intentional to Provoke Attacks of Opportunity; it's just that it's not enough that you be pushed backed, dragged, or repostioned, you have to be Greater pushed back, dragged, or repositioned. In the case of the Move Grapple effect, you first had to take an action to establish control of the Grapple, then you have to Move them. And in almost every case when you Grapple someone, you suffer the Grappled Condition yourself.


Involuntary movement does not provoke, unless a specific rule says that it does.

It may not seem realistic, but it does provide a level of game balance.


Any action that provokes will still provoke if it's done as a non-action: making an untrained combat maneuver as an AoO or the movement from Following Step, for example. Taking an action is not required to provoke an AoO.

The is no general rule that states involuntary movement does not provoke. While many types of involuntary movement do not, the rules must specifically make an exception for the movement to be excluded, not the other way around.
Moving out of a threatened square provokes: that's the general rule. Exceptions are on a case by case basis.


bbangerter wrote:

Involuntary movement does not provoke, unless a specific rule says that it does.

It may not seem realistic, but it does provide a level of game balance.

Well, can you show me where it says that?

It says that moving out of a Threatened Square Provokes. It doesn't say that that movement must be voluntary anywhere that I have been able to find. How do you find that such movement must be voluntary?

You say that the requirement for movement to be voluntary is necessary for game balance, and I just showed that it isn't.

The Concordance

Things that explicitly provoke AoO's:
-taking an action to move from a threatened square
-taking an action that provokes attacks of opportunity (such as manipulating items or casting a spell)
-meeting the conditions for a feat or class feature which allows an opponent to take an AoO on you (some Greater maneuver feats, elephant stomp, some teamwork feats, etc)

Being involuntarily moved is not on the list, but some of the greater maneuver feats allow it. Bring dex-denied or flat footed suggests your guard is down, but it doesn't provoke AoOs either.

The Concordance

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
bbangerter wrote:

Involuntary movement does not provoke, unless a specific rule says that it does.

It may not seem realistic, but it does provide a level of game balance.

Well, can you show me where it says that?

It says that moving out of a Threatened Square Provokes. It doesn't say that that movement must be voluntary anywhere that I have been able to find. How do you find that such movement must be voluntary?

You say that the requirement for movement to be voluntary is necessary for game balance, and I just showed that it isn't.

If you spend the action moving, you provoke. If someone else spends an action to move you, they may or may not provoke depending on the ability, but you don't provoke as you didn't take an action.

Quote:
An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you.

The person taking the action is the person provoking. Some feats give you AoOs when you opponent hasn't taken a specific action, these feats are exceptions to the rule.


ShieldLawrence wrote:

Things that explicitly provoke AoO's:

-taking an action to move from a threatened square

The Core Rulebook, insofar as we have examined it, doesn't say that you have to be the one who takes the action in order for you to provoke.

You have made the point that that movement has to be the result of some kind of action. Arguably, if you are moving past the tentacles of a Kraken because of a wave washing over the deck, then you don't provoke. A little shaky, but okay.

The examples you gave,

ShieldLawrence wrote:
Greater maneuver feats... some teamwork feats, etc)

Are actually specific exceptions to movement out of Threatened Squares that don't provoke AoOs. These are exceptions that prove the rule.

ShieldLawrence wrote:
Being involuntarily moved is not on the list,

Moving voluntarily isn't on the list, either! It just says "moving."


ShieldLawrence wrote:
you don't provoke as you didn't take an action.

I really think this needs to be supported with more evidence.

ShieldLawrence wrote:
The person taking the action is the person provoking. Some feats give you AoOs when you opponent hasn't taken a specific action, these feats are exceptions to the rule.

But it does mean that it is the case that you must perform an action to provoke an attack of opportunity.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:


I really think this needs to be supported with more evidence.

Can you show any general rule that you ever provoke when not taking an action? Because the only general rule I've seen quoted is the one ShieldLawrence has already provided. "Two kinds of actions can provoke..."

Scott Wilhelm wrote:


But it does mean that it is the case that you must perform an action to provoke an attack of opportunity.

Yes, this is correct - you probably meant to say something different than what you typed? The general rule is that you must be taking an action to provoke. Either of 'move' or 'other provoking action'.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Are actually specific exceptions to movement out of Threatened Squares that don't provoke AoOs. These are exceptions that prove the rule.

And the greater versions are specific rules that prove the exception in the opposite direction.

SRD wrote:


Whenever you bull rush an opponent, his movement provokes attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).


"Move" or "Moving" is a specific action which provokes under specified circumstances (leaving a threatened square). See CRB pg. 180, Table 8-2, and pg 182.

Being moved (such as by Bull Rush, Drag, Grapple, or Reposition), or being carried while unconscious, is not an "Action"; therefore RAW you do not provoke an attack of opportunity. It is as simple as that.

Moreover, Bull Rush does not "move" an opponent, it "pushes" them, Drag does not "move" an opponent, it "drags" them, and Reposition does not "move" an opponent, it "repositions" them. Later references to "moving" in these maneuvers' descriptions are the result the limitations of the English language and of the author's vocabulary, and not the result of the game designer's intention for involuntary movement as a result of a combat maneuver's success to be equated with the victim taking the poorly named "Move" Action (which is just one of the actions in the poorly named category of "move actions").
These maneuvers specify the victim does not provoke because the game designers wanted it to be clear that there are conditions under which enemy will provoke, not because the being moved would have provoked if the game designers had omitted that phrase.

Involuntary Movement is never mentioned in regard to Attacks of Opportunity for very simple reasons:
A) Because internet trolls would use it to argue that they do not provoke while their character's are moving under the effects of Confusion or Charm/Dominate Person spells. Then the party mage would be casting Charm Person the party fighter so that they are able to avoid the Attacks of Opportunity they should be provoking.
B) Because internet trolls would claim that their enemies' equipment or a carried ally provokes when the enemy leaves a threatened square. Then they would be making "free" sunder, disarm, or even trip attempts against the enemies equipment (don't ask me how tripping a carried creature would work, I don't know).

Obviously this is not the intention of the Attack of Opportunity system. Which admittedly seems to be punishing players for performing any kind of creative action, unless the player is willing to pay the opportunity cost of not getting better at the actions they aren't already being punished for performing. I really hate the AoO system.

One noteworthy thing I noticed while researching this:
While mounted, your mount performs the move action at your direction; instead of yourself (see CRB pg 201). This means that, rules as written, it is your Mount that provokes the attack of opportunity, and not yourself. It's a good thing that a Cavalier's mount gets so many hit dice.

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