willuwontu |
In my game, I'm required to take at least 10 levels as bard, which isn't bad since we've got gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)
I'm also taking the arrowsong minstrel archetype for bard as well.
We are starting at level 6 (with appropriate gold) and have tier 2 mythic.
I'm also starting off with a +5 CHA stat book (has to do with the reason for the bard *previous campaign nostalgia*), and have rolled stats with GM of 18, 18, 16, 16, 16, 17.
I was considering going fighter/bard with these feats (rapid shot (mythic feat as well), manyshot (mythic path for feat as well), point-blank, wep focus feats, Imp. init., and hammer the gap)
And then next level grabbing arcane archer in place of fighter.
Other things to note:
My GM won't let me have more Caster levels than levels in bard + arcane archer.
Is this a good idea? Any builds that you might think is better?
Kolokotroni |
Wait your dm is running a gestalt AND mythic game? with stats of 18, 18, 16, 16, 16, and 17? You would have to work hard NOT to break that character.
Though if you truly want to go nuts with a gestalt bard, go paladin on the other side. You already have the high charisma, the full bab, complementary saves, and better HD will serve you well, and ofcourse, paladin archers are pretty outrageous, even when they cant also give themselves inspire courage. In my opinion that's a better choice then the zen archer, but ofcourse that depends on whether a paladin can fit your concept or not.
Cuup |
Paladin is a great Gestalt option for Bards (add Cha to all saves and attack rolls to Smite (which synergies very well with archery), and your uses per day of Lay on Hands). There are Paladin archetypes that lose their spellcasting.
Ranger and Slayer are also great for archers in general, as they're able to ignore a lot of feat taxes.
Fighter's a good gestalt choice with just about any class, just for the sheer number of bonus feats, so you're on the right track already.
With Mythic in mind, you could certainly do worse than Mythic Vital Strike (add Gravity Bow to make the damage dice 2d6) paired with the Unstoppable Shot ability, which lets your ranged attack hit as many targets as possible in a straight line (and you can spend an extra Mythic Power to arc the shot up to two times up to 50 degrees each!) up to the attack's range. Add the Limitless Range ability, and you can theoretically hit an number of creatures. Unfortunately, the Unstoppable Shot ability pointedly says you can't hit the same target more than once with it. At second Tier, you can spend a Mythic Point to gain an additional Standard Action, letting you do it twice in a round.
Doing this, you'll be firing one massive shot at multiple targets with no attack roll penalties, using a fraction of the number of feats archery usually requires. I ran a gestalt mythic campaign once. It was bananas.
Atarlost |
You basically have no concerns over stat synergy with that array.
Slayer gets you a combat style feats and in just one level studied target becomes a swift action. You'll do almost as well for feats as a fighter since in addition to taking ranger style feats you can take a combat feat via rogue talent and weapon focus via rogue talent, leaving you short only an extra feat at first level. Hammer the Gap is lousy so drop that one.
I can't find the Arrowsong Minstrel on PFSRD, but if your feat plan is tight you can consider Arcane Duelist instead to get free Arcane Strike.
Are you forced to go into Arcane Archer? Bard 20 is better than Bard 10 AA 10, especially when you can get full BAB from the other gestalt track. AA really isn't a very good prestige class. Actually, apart from the deific observance classes no Paizo prestige class is a very good prestige class.
The strongest thing you can do is probably martial 20//bard 20 where the martial is either ranger, slayer, or fighter. Rangers have some good archery buffing magic that isn't on the bard list, fighters get an extra bonus combat feat and weapon focus at levels 4 and 8 beyond ranger style feats if you use the rogue talents, and fighters get lots of feats but have less in the way of class features. Be sure to archetype out armor training because you won't use it if you're in light armor anyways.
willuwontu |
Nice suggestions,
Tying to figure out if divine hunter paladin is worth, still might go fighter for all the extra feats.
Paladin is a great Gestalt option for Bards (add Cha to all saves and attack rolls to Smite (which synergies very well with archery), and your uses per day of Lay on Hands). There are Paladin archetypes that lose their spellcasting.
Let me clarify, because i see how this was misread, I can't have more caster levels in any one class than that class + spellcasting prestige class levels.
Does unstoppable shot work with Vital Strike? I thought it was it's own separate action, but if it does then that's probably better than anything else I can get to work.
willuwontu |
Slayer gets you a combat style feats and in just one level studied target becomes a swift action. You'll do almost as well for feats as a fighter since in addition to taking ranger style feats you can take a combat feat via rogue talent and weapon focus via rogue talent, leaving you short only an extra feat at first level. Hammer the Gap is lousy so drop that one.
Hmmm, now I need to do a slayer mock-up, it seems like a nice choice too.
I was considering hammer simply for the fact that I currently have 7 attacks (with haste), although i will probably switch it out for PBM instead.
Are you forced to go into Arcane Archer? Bard 20 is better than Bard 10 AA 10, especially when you can get full BAB from the other gestalt track. AA really isn't a very good prestige class. Actually, apart from the deific observance classes no Paizo prestige class is a very good prestige class.The strongest thing you can do is probably martial 20//bard 20 where the martial is either ranger, slayer, or fighter. Rangers have some good archery buffing magic that isn't on the bard list, fighters get an extra bonus combat feat and weapon focus at levels 4 and 8 beyond ranger style feats if you use the rogue talents, and fighters get lots of feats but have less in the way of class features. Be sure to archetype out armor training because you won't use it if you're in light armor anyways.
I was going to do bard 10/AA 10, but I don't have to, It's just bard doesn't seem to offer anything much better post 10 than AA does, while AA offers a lot of utility. (But if you can explain why it is, please do so, I'm not great at min-maxing).
The arrowsong minstrel actually lets me grab some of the archery buffing spells, and the other I was going to go weapon master (longbow) Fighter, (archer archetype sucks). If i do decide on slayer any particular archetypes you'd recommend?
blashimov |
It depends a lot on your character concept.
Arcane archer loses some caster levels, skill points, and bard class features for relatively little in return. The thing at high levels of optimization is that a d6 here and there doesn't matter anymore. More bard and banner of ancient kings is great for you and your party. With archery, you can kill a dude. With dominate person, you can have him join your side.
If you go spellless paladin, definitely raise cha. Otherwise I'd raise STR because you shouldn't miss often. But raise that 17 To 18 first.
It's hard to beat casting.
blashimov |
Ok, I think I am a little too harsh on arcane archer. Still, I would be sad having to wait an extra two levels for Irresistable Dance and Overwhelming Presence.
I also happen to like an extra +5 to knowledge checks and bardic lore. At crazy levels it's nice to know stuff.
Arcane archer doesn't help you with hit points or attack bonus, because of gestalt.
Spells that deal damage get worse and worse relatively the higher powered the game is, and you have 16+ in every stat with gestalt mythic characters!
Note that even mythic vital strike doesn't multiply the elemental damage from arcane archer, and I don't think you can vital strike while using the standard action abilities.
More spell slots open up quicken uses.
Atarlost |
Atarlost wrote:
Slayer gets you a combat style feats and in just one level studied target becomes a swift action. You'll do almost as well for feats as a fighter since in addition to taking ranger style feats you can take a combat feat via rogue talent and weapon focus via rogue talent, leaving you short only an extra feat at first level. Hammer the Gap is lousy so drop that one.
Hmmm, now I need to do a slayer mock-up, it seems like a nice choice too.
I was considering hammer simply for the fact that I currently have 7 attacks (with haste), although i will probably switch it out for PBM instead.
You won't hit all 7 consecutively. If you were a druid//barbarian who never misses it might be, but with the accuracy drop on iteratives and the need for deadly aim it just doesn't work out.
I was going to do bard 10/AA 10, but I don't have to, It's just bard doesn't seem to offer anything much better post 10 than AA does, while AA offers a lot of utility. (But if you can explain why it is, please do so, I'm not great at min-maxing).
The arrowsong minstrel actually lets me grab some of the archery buffing spells, and the other I was going to go weapon master (longbow) Fighter, (archer archetype sucks). If i do decide on slayer any particular archetypes you'd recommend?
The first things you lose with AA is your Inspire Courage going up, your third 4th level spell known, and your second 4th level spell slot. Arrowsong Minstrel makes this worse. In return, Enhance Arrows doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus you have to have on your bow to get to this point. Bard wins.
At 12th the bard gets a minor healing ability he'll rarely use, but the AA gets imbue arrow which is mostly useful with certain sorc/wis spells you don't have. Kind of a wash. Oh, and if you stick with ASM you get a wizard spell staying bard but the AA doesn't.
At 13th the AA gets to add elemental damage and the bard gets nothing but casting. This is a good level for the AA in isolation, but the elemental damage is worth the lost inspire courage and he's down a casting level. Also, thanks to the lost casting level the bard has 5th level spells and the AA doesn't.
At 14th the bard has frightening tune and the AA has an ability superseded by a +1 equivalent weapon enhancement.
At 15th the bard gets some stuff you don't sound interested in and the AA can shoot farther, but doesn't progress casting. From here on out the AA is two casting levels behind the bard.
At 16th the AA gets phase arrow, which is kind of cool. The bard just progresses casting. Again, this is a relatively good level for the AA, but the bard now has 6th level spells while the AA is two levels away.
At 17th the AA gets elemental burst enhancements, which aren't very good. The bard gets another +1 from inspire courage. Nominally these have equal value, but the difference between elemental and burst is the worst +1 bonus equivalent I know of.
At 18th you're giving up Mass Suggestion it's replacement. For the ASM that's the ability to ranged spellstrike multiple targets. The AA can spread his damage around to avoid actually killing anything once per day.
At 19th you probably don't care for what the bard has, but the AA again fails to progress casting. Alignment enhancement is a little better, but really, golf-bagging arrows isn't that hard by level 19.
At 20th level both capstones are death attacks. The AA must make a normal attack roll and the DC is fort 20+cha. The bard's DC is will 20+cha with 1d4 staggering on a passed save. The bard can do this as many times as he has performance rounds if he wants to. The AA can only use slaying arrow once a day. Bard just has a better capstone here, not surprising since PrC capstones are expected to be 16th level abilities.
All casting prestige classes that don't explicitly require a medium casting class ability to enter are balanced to be entered from full casting classes and almost all of them are on the weak side because Paizo doesn't like the way everyone took prestige classes in 3.5. A few like Magambayan Arcanist slipped through in setting splats, but AA is core and designed to fail.
Losing 3 levels of casting is just weak. When also dealing with diminished spellcasting and having an ability to add spells to your list that the prestige doesn't progress it's horrible.
If you're set on AA and don't have to use it with bard you can dip one level of wizard on the other track and using AA with it. That will probably lose you one BAB (the gestalt rules are a little unclear), but you'll get utility spell variety and not mess up your bard casting progression. AA really isn't very good, though. Mostly it does stuff that can be duplicated by spending money and you're not allowed to go into it until those savings stop being significant.
Honestly, I think you should avoid Arrowsong Minstel as well unless you really need the bonus feat, and probably even then Arcane Duelist is better because diminished spellcasting is going to hurt even with your extreme charisma. (You are taking Arcane Strike, right?) Precise Minstrel is nice, but it's the only really good ability. You're going to find you just don't have the spell slots to get much use from Arcane Archery or Arrowsong Strike. Gravity Bow is nice, but having it with the bard casting makes it compete with the excellent Saving Finale and Glibness. Getting it from ranger or wizard lets you use it without impacting your bard options.
blashimov |
I wouldn't even take arcane strike. With mythic gestalt, you can find better uses for a swift action, and, I can't emphasize this enough, even 4 damage per attack is mostly irrelevant.
He can't take any classes with caster levels besides bard, though I am still confused as to whether a spell-less paladin counts, but maybe. But a wand of gravity bow works fine.