So... is the Hungry Earth spell a non-starter? Can it be made good?


Advice


I generally dislike the Hungry Earth spell for the same reason I dislike toppling metamagic: it relies on CMB checks, but those checks just don't scale with level well. At a certain level, everything can escape the check.

However, Hungry Earth seems to be even worse than toppling metamagic. At least with that, you can do things like take Spell Specialization to effectively increase your caster level, which increases your CMB score. And Hungry Earth pays lip-service to that idea by using the caster level for your CMB checks, but ONLY lip-service, because your CMD is set to a flat 20, no matter your level.

In other words, even if you could win the grapple, the enemies will always break out. And even if they fail to break out once, since they get multiple chances they will pull it off before they get buried.

So my question is: have I read the spell wrong, and/or is there any way to make it better? For example, are there feats that make "static numbers" of a spell increase? Or is there any magic item to improve this?

(Also, what happens if someone IS buried? The spell says they need to "escape" but offers no rules for that. I found a rule for getting free from being buried (DC 25 strength check) under Cave In Or Collapse but I have no idea if there are other better rules.)


Eh... If you could debuff their CMD/B enough for that CMB/D to be effective at CR 9+ then you probably wouldn't need to cast Hungry Earth. I'm going to go with no, this spell is not useful.

Edit: and the spell says "The DC to escape the grapple increases to 25 for a creature that has been pulled beneath the earth." which implies you use the same mechanism as before with DC 25 instead of 20.


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What you say about the DC 20 to escape seems true. I don't really see any basic way to increase the spell's 'power' in that regard.

I guess to try and put the spell's best foot forward I would say:
It's a 20-foot radius effect, that's 40 feet of battlefield control.
Assume you get the spell at 9th or 10th level, you've got a +14 or +15 CMB initially. That's not bad.

The downside is that you roll only once, when cast or at the end of your turns and that's used for all opponents, so a good or bad roll will pretty much determine whether the spell will be 'useful' or not for that round. It seems that the number you roll also is used throughout the round, so a possibly really low roll could be a sign for enemies to "Quick, run across now" but I may be reading that wrong.

If you assume that you can catch a creature with that first grapple or when they enter the area, you've at least paused their movement. They can't get any closer to you until they break out. So even though a DC 20 is probably doable, that's still their action. Then they may have a move, but at 40 feet across some creature's may not be able to completely get across the effect. They could back up out of it and begin moving around, but then that's battlefield control advantage.

If somehow a creature does fail (and it happens). The next roll you make for the spell will get a +5 against them (so about +20 when you first get the spell.)

Grappled wrote:
Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform.

So on the 2nd successive CMB check, in addition to the +5 the spell is getting for maintaining the grapple, being grappled gives the target a -4 to Dexterity, which should translate to -2 to their CMD. The additional -2 to attacks and combat maneuvers is clearly not applied. So the spell's chance of succeeding on the 2nd successive check is pretty good. At that point, the target falls prone.

Now being prone, means that they're getting a -4 to their CMB check to escape on their turn since being prone is -4 to attack (Escape Artist checks aren't affected by prone but are still at -2 for the -4 Dex penalty). Even if they pass, they're still prone, so they have to expend their remaining move action to just stand up. End of your turn, they may end up Grappled all over again.

If they do fail, which is likely since they had a -4 to their CMBs, then at the end of your next turn, not only is the spell getting the +5 for maintaining the grapple against them, their CMD is at -4 (-6 counting the Dex penalty) because being prone gives you a -4 AC against melee attacks (which this is considered.)

Now they're underground and need to hold their breath and beat a DC 25 check before they can even try to dig themselves out. (I don't have the rules for that, the ones you found about cave-ins may be applicable.) This is all happening for about 10 rounds all without you having to do a thing after casting the spell.

I would say that your initial skepticism and concerns about the spell are valid, but the spell can be a lot more dangerous in some situations depending on how well you roll that first CMB check.


The spell is from the monster codex, so not exactly meant for PC use. It can be a good quality of life spell though. You can quickly bury all of the corpses after a fight to hide the evidence, since dead creatures also still count as creatures. It's also a spell with no save or spell resistance, so something is bound to be vulnerable to it.

I believe the main purpose is to remove enemy casters from the battle field.


Melkiador wrote:
The spell is from the monster codex, so not exactly meant for PC use.

I agree, but Pathfinder Society has this:

Quote:
Monster Codex: The hungry earth spell is legal for play.

So at least the Society play allows it to be used, and maybe I can make an argument that if the super conservative Society rules allow it, my home GM should allow it, too.


Not saying you shouldn't be able to use it. Just that it's designed to work against PCs rather than be used by them. That's why it seems weak.


Ohhh, I see. You're suggesting it's an NPC-ish spell that isn't meant to be as good as "normal" spells. Got it.


It is pretty good against PCs at that level range though. Your average adventuring party is going to have at least one member with bad CMD. And if you hit the whole party, someone else is likely to get an unlucky roll and fall into it too. And those PCs lose their standard actions on their turns just to get out. And then they need to be able to walk out with their move, yet the spell has no clearly defined edges, so you don't know where to run to to not get hit again.


This seems more like a utility spell with combat options, like stoneshape, then just a combat spell.

This would be a favorite of evil druids murdering hordes of townsfolk.


Is there a table similar to the Monster Statistics by CR table which shows average CMB and CMD ratings for different CRs?


Getting yourself a Fortune-style effect to roll twice and take the better result greatly increases the power of this because of the one roll. Having an ally drop Grease or Black Tentacles helps as well, since it means successful escapes don't get somebody out. If all you do is keep people locked down, you still eat a bunch of standard actions.


RegUS PatOff wrote:
Is there a table similar to the Monster Statistics by CR table which shows average CMB and CMD ratings for different CRs?

Yes. CR 9 has a median CMD of 31 - which makes a +14 succeed on a roll of 17+. Adding a reroll increases the success chance to 36%, or about the same as 14+.

If you can target a caster-type with low CMD, or a bunch of mooks it may be more effective. You probably don't want to use a spell of your highest spell level on mooks though so it is unlikely to be used that way until a higher character level.

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