Question on the spell banishment


Advice


If any of my players happen to find this post - stop reading it or any replies.

question in the spoiler.

Spoiler:

How have you handled what happens when a player is banished from a plane back to their home plane?

The following spells can be used offensively against a player on a separate plane:

Holy Word (and it's opposite)
banishment
plane shift
dismissal

I'm just curious as there is no rule, suggestion, or guidance on how this works and where the player ends up. I know for a monster it really doesn't matter - but if I'm going to use this against my players I'm unsure what to do with them. I have ideas - they would work - but I'd rather hear what others do without discussing the merits of my thoughts. Please post if you have had 'whatever' done to you or have used it against a group at a game session as well or if it's pure theory. Bonus points if you can say what happened to your character and if you found the experience fun or frustrating.

My goal isn't to be frustrating - I want this encounter to be a foreshadow of something they won't have the power to deal with for a while and end with them being forced back to their home plane. They have access to teleport and other fast travel so ending up in an odd location isn't a campaign ender.

Thoughts and opinions are welcome!


The PC ends up at a random location on their home plane and has to figure out where they are and how to get back. Unless they are banished as a group, they end up in different locations on subsequent banishes.

I tend to follow plane shift's rules if no others are present. Keep in mind, the caster is picking the location or not, so a smart caster could easily dunk a PC into the middle of an ocean.


Gevaudan wrote:

The PC ends up at a random location on their home plane and has to figure out where they are and how to get back. Unless they are banished as a group, they end up in different locations on subsequent banishes.

I tend to follow plane shift's rules if no others are present. Keep in mind, the caster is picking the location or not, so a smart caster could easily dunk a PC into the middle of an ocean.

So if the banishment was from 'holy word' you'd just make it random?

oddly - it just dawned on me that 'random' in the plane of existence could even be on a different planet.


I tend to have banishment and similar spells put the target back "approximately" where they left their own plane. Not necessarily 100% in the same spot (that might be tricky, or lethal, if they plane shifted out of a dangerous situation), but reasonably close.


Not a different planet. Planes are planets for terrestrials from a terminology standpoint in the game. Some planes are huge with many subplanes, but if I'm from golarion, that's both my planet and my plane, imo.

In a space adventure, where several planets in a solar system are regularly traveled between, I might allow hitting any of them.

Tonyz, that also, totally fair. I'd do that if my players wanted it for sure.


I'd consider another planet if my players were in the 'level 20 mythic tier 8+' range - possibly. Otherwise I'd use it if I wanted to end a campaign on a sour note (that is not).

From what I can gather the common theme seems to be 'near where they left the plane' - although I've seen (older) posts (in other forums) where they are adamant they use the 'random place' - I was just curious how anyone who has either used it as a GM or had it happen to them as a player experienced the situation - and how they felt about it afterwords.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gevaudan wrote:
Not a different planet. Planes are planets for terrestrials from a terminology standpoint in the game.

That's not something I'd noticed in my readings, and the existence of the interplanetary teleport spell suggests otherwise (to me, at least). SImilarly, the fact that both Earth and Golarion are part of the (same) Material Plane indicates otherwise.

What am I missing?


Ckorik wrote:


From what I can gather the common theme seems to be 'near where they left the plane' - although I've seen (older) posts (in other forums) where they are adamant they use the 'random place' - I was just curious how anyone who has either used it as a GM or had it happen to them as a player experienced the situation - and how they felt about it afterwords.

I think a better "common theme" is "whatever will be the most fun."

Since 99.99% of the observable universe is hard vacuum, most "random" distributions of locations will end up dumping the target of a banishment spell into interstellar space, which is probably an effective death sentence. This makes banishment into a Will-save-or-die spell, which may or may not be what you had in mind.

I have nothing against save-or-die spells, but I think we have enough of them and I think it makes the game more interesting if banishment were a save-or-lose-in-an-interesting-and-creative-way (SoLiaIaCW?) spell rather than just another version of finger of death or something.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Ckorik wrote:


From what I can gather the common theme seems to be 'near where they left the plane' - although I've seen (older) posts (in other forums) where they are adamant they use the 'random place' - I was just curious how anyone who has either used it as a GM or had it happen to them as a player experienced the situation - and how they felt about it afterwords.

I think a better "common theme" is "whatever will be the most fun."

...

I agree with this.

The great part about being the DM is that you make the final call, and while consistentcy with the rules is important, if there is an outcome within the scope of the rules that most benefits the story you're telling together (and the fun of the group), that seems like the best way to go.

In this case, while the spells seem to imply a certain level of randomness, that's also an opening to do what you think works best. Fate works in mysterious ways and all that...


Right - honestly I'm more worried about if my players will feel like it's a deus ex machina - at the end of the current quest they are on - an enemy that has been bothering them now for about 8 levels (they are currently level 11) is going to be accessible.

He's a half-fiend treant spawn of Ghlaunder (this is a very long arc I've been running along rotrl - they played through 'feast of ravenmoor' early in the adventure).

Long story short after the 'boss' fight a portal will be open - if they go through it they'll be in the abyss - and the treant will use unholy word on them - none of them being evil they'll be poofed back to home base.

I figure they will get to see their nemesis and come up with a way to avoid his ability to send them away.... hopefully -

Contrived? Too much? Epic? I'm not sure...


Ckorik wrote:

Right - honestly I'm more worried about if my players will feel like it's a deus ex machina - at the end of the current quest they are on - an enemy that has been bothering them now for about 8 levels (they are currently level 11) is going to be accessible.

He's a half-fiend treant spawn of Ghlaunder (this is a very long arc I've been running along rotrl - they played through 'feast of ravenmoor' early in the adventure).

Long story short after the 'boss' fight a portal will be open - if they go through it they'll be in the abyss - and the treant will use unholy word on them - none of them being evil they'll be poofed back to home base.

Personally, I'd send them back somewhere interesting that they wouldn't have gone on their own. The Material Plane is huge and includes all sorts of interesting things; this might be an opportunity to break out, for example, an adventure on Barsoom (while the party figures out what the heck just happened and how to get home).

Sending them back to home base is somewhat anticlimactic. Sending them to Endor during the construction of the second Death Star, or to Narnia during Caspian's rebellion though,..... that's interesting.


In reading that plan over, my concern for the PCs would be that some party members make the save versus banishment and some don't. Even with a -4 and a high DC, there is always the chance someone hits a Nat20, or otherwise beats it.

If that happened, those who are 'lucky' enough to make the save would then have to fight the enemy (and any other of the myriad threats in the Abyss) without the aid of their banished allies.

Probably a death sentence, and I'm not sure the PCs would really know it might be a good idea to choose to fail the save... Worth thinking over whether that possible outcome is something you're prepared to deal with.


The Steel Refrain wrote:

In reading that plan over, my concern for the PCs would be that some party members make the save versus banishment and some don't. Even with a -4 and a high DC, there is always the chance someone hits a Nat20, or otherwise beats it.

If that happened, those who are 'lucky' enough to make the save would then have to fight the enemy (and any other of the myriad threats in the Abyss) without the aid of their banished allies.

Probably a death sentence, and I'm not sure the PCs would really know it might be a good idea to choose to fail the save... Worth thinking over whether that possible outcome is something you're prepared to deal with.

I believe the holy word (and it's unholy side) do not give a save for the banish effect.

It's 'if you are on your home plane any non good (or evil) extraplaner creatures are banished' - all other effects are save or suck (up to dead but my players are high enough to avoid that effect). If I'm wrong about how that spell works I will need to rethink things for sure.


Ckorik wrote:

I believe the holy word (and it's unholy side) do not give a save for the banish effect.

It's 'if you are on your home plane any non good (or evil) extraplaner creatures are banished' - all other effects are save or suck (up to dead but my players are high enough to avoid that effect). If I'm wrong about how that spell works I will need to rethink things for sure.

"The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a –4 penalty) to negate."


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Ckorik wrote:

I believe the holy word (and it's unholy side) do not give a save for the banish effect.

It's 'if you are on your home plane any non good (or evil) extraplaner creatures are banished' - all other effects are save or suck (up to dead but my players are high enough to avoid that effect). If I'm wrong about how that spell works I will need to rethink things for sure.

"The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a –4 penalty) to negate."

Hrmmm - that'll be interesting then. I may have to have a geas ready to use if anyone manages to save. I could always mind fog the area but with my luck half the party will roll 20's on the save anyway. Good news is they will be paralysed even if they make the save so if I have 'alternate plans' ready it gives me a reason to not destroy them outright and keep the story moving.

So - regarding the entire spell then - one will save - and even if they save against the 'suck' parts the same save at -4 for banishment? Or would you make them roll separate saves?


Ckorik wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Ckorik wrote:

I believe the holy word (and it's unholy side) do not give a save for the banish effect.

It's 'if you are on your home plane any non good (or evil) extraplaner creatures are banished' - all other effects are save or suck (up to dead but my players are high enough to avoid that effect). If I'm wrong about how that spell works I will need to rethink things for sure.

"The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a –4 penalty) to negate."

Hrmmm - that'll be interesting then. I may have to have a geas ready to use if anyone manages to save. I could always mind fog the area but with my luck half the party will roll 20's on the save anyway. Good news is they will be paralysed even if they make the save so if I have 'alternate plans' ready it gives me a reason to not destroy them outright and keep the story moving.

So - regarding the entire spell then - one will save - and even if they save against the 'suck' parts the same save at -4 for banishment? Or would you make them roll separate saves?

That part is less clear to me. On one hand, the spell begins by speaking to the primary effects of the spell based on HD (in terms of conditions like deaf, blind, etc.), before stating that:

"The effects are cumulative and concurrent. A successful Will save reduces or eliminates these effects. Creatures affected by multiple effects make only one save and apply the result to all the effects."

However, it goes on to discuss the banishment effect separately, stating:

"Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nongood extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the holy word or not. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a –4 penalty) to negate."

While the earlier phrtasing could suggest a single save, my feeling is that the intention is for them to roll a separate Will save for the banishment. In other words, they would furst save versus the condition effects. Then again, versus the banishment effect with a -4 penalty.

My reasoning for that is simply that: (a) in the first part, the "effects" being discussed are the aforementioned conditions, rather than the banishment; and (b) the later banishment language speaks of a separate save with a -4 penalty. Also, if the banishment was intended to use the first save result, the drafters could have said so, but did not.


I believe that Holy Word grants everyone who is affected by alignment a will save to determine the standard effect, and another, more difficult save, if you are an outsider, who could be banished.
Another interpretation would be that there is only one save rolled to determine the standard results, and then is checked against outsiders, if a -4 to their roll would fail it and banish them.

That can get a lot more complicated once feats or abilities come into play which add more saves to a spell, like Persistant Spell.

The tricky part for the DM is to determine if banishment happens before death or afterwards, if that is possible :)


Did this to a group once. They were locked in a large mansion with a significant boss(2nd from final in evil heirarchy). The players were level 10 at the time so plane shift, scrying, and teleport were operational

When he cast the spell I explained "If you fail this saving throw you get sent to a random location on the material plane. Whoever makes it gets to stay and fight a CR inappropriate lich who's phylax is currently unknown. Each of you has about a 20% chance of succeeding a save. Who volunteers to fail their save?"

Gave each a percentile chance to see how bad their situation was. The next session began with a quick comedic scene for each of them going from best off to worst. The trick was to keep the not active players laughing. They spent the rest of the session finding each other then researching the lich


Dastis wrote:

Did this to a group once. They were locked in a large mansion with a significant boss(2nd from final in evil heirarchy). The players were level 10 at the time so plane shift, scrying, and teleport were operational

When he cast the spell I explained "If you fail this saving throw you get sent to a random location on the material plane. Whoever makes it gets to stay and fight a CR inappropriate lich who's phylax is currently unknown. Each of you has about a 20% chance of succeeding a save. Who volunteers to fail their save?"

Gave each a percentile chance to see how bad their situation was. The next session began with a quick comedic scene for each of them going from best off to worst. The trick was to keep the not active players laughing. They spent the rest of the session finding each other then researching the lich

This sounds awesome - and I think that's exactly how I'm going to run with it (and have backups plans for what happens if they try and fight - because players).

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Question on the spell banishment All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.