When do player stats become broken?


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I'm an aspiring DM whose currently just running Adventure Paths until I get a better understanding of the game to homebrew my campaigns. One thing I've become concerned about is if player stats can reach a point of absurdity, that it becomes unbalanced in their favor. This hasn't happened to me yet, I'm just wondering if it's something I should look out for.
As a side question, what would you say is the highest reasonable number for a stat? I imagine this number would be different for each stat, right?


Use 20 point buy for character creation and you wont get any "broken" stats lines.

Don't worry about how high they can pump stuff. It's too pricey to raise it much until very late levels.


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I like 25 point buy, with a maximum starting stat of 18 post-racials. Attributes aren't really problematic unless you have full casters starting with 20's in their casting stat, and having some extra points that you're not allowed to put in your primary stat gives players breathing room for tertiaries (how you get Fighters with charisma for example).


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I agree with Chess Pwn, 20 point buy, core races (maybe others, but definitely the core ones can keep stats sane), and I recommend Automatic Bonus Progression, Unchained pg 156. This eliminates the need for all these stat boosting items (the items are not in the game with this system) because it gives the PCs the bonus from those items automatically. This is good because modules and Challenge Ratings assume that your PCs have the items which characters are supposed to have (roughly) at whatever level they are (Core Rulebook, Table 12-4, pg 399, Character Wealth by Level).Auto Bonus Prog prevents situations where a PC just saves up all their money and buys the best +6 stat thing way earlier than the challenges faced anticipate. Which could be good or bad, but the Auto Bonus Prog is fair to all the PCs. Any stat above 25 (with or without Auto Bonus) just seems a bit extreme for characters under 14th level to me.


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Nothing is broken... it's all working just as I intended...


If 20 point is still too rich for you to cope with from your Players, then consider going even leaner with 15. Barring that, so long as you give them fair, but not excessive loot (try sticking to base values instead of demands they may make of you), and asking, maybe privately, what their intentions are in purchase of magic items. The Munchkin part of me is cussing my DM side out right now in my mind.

Is it control or challenge that you seek to maintain in your campaign regarding your PCs? Even if they had low attributes, barring entry restriction on feats, etc, an optimized build could still turn the humble (no CvsM here ^_^) fighter into a bestiary-wrecking powerhouse and the ubiquitous prepared caster a la Wizard could always bypass narrative with the right Batman-Gambit spell selection for the day.

In a point buy, think of it this way, the Player would choose for a hole/weakness to develop in their character in order to maximize their potential in their SaD/MaD concept. If someone chose to spend the what, 17 points to raise base value to 18, and of course choose a race for a further 2 increase to 20, a la +5 at Level 1 (and some races like Goblin can even get +6 to DEX at start), then they did so at significant penalty/hindrance to their remaining stats. I personally play with at least one stat at 8 or even 7 in my point-buy arrays; this player would seriously have to consider two "dump" stats just to have a middling secondary ability score in their backup field.

You wish to encourage "moderate" ability scores, which I presume would be +2->+3 at Level 1? Then try enforcing more rules... track weight for example to encourage spellcasters to not throw away all their Strength. Your Martials insist on min-maxing their physical vs cerebral stats? Employ more social ability/professional rolls during roleplaying segments.

I don't know if your passively-aggressively trying to curb your Players power curve, and I do not mean to come at you accusingly, however, just inform your Players to treat you kindly as you try to give everyone a fun experience running APs till you become more confident in your own abilities. The ones you would wish to keep will accomodate you, and you get to learn how to be ruthless towards the ones that still choose to try and bumrush your gaming enjoyment. DMs need to have their fun too instead of being a chef serving up punching-bag NPCs to feed Player ego.

That being said -I switched from homebrew to APs btw ^_^- good choice to start with APs. I believe that Paizo crafts excellent adventures that are well balanced and enjoyable. Personally, I choose to use them only as "guidelines/waypoints" and let the PCs naturally run amok within the setting until they find their way and get back on the plot's track.

In summary: I let the Players build within the system, and let them reap the rewards and repercussions of their construction choices.


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I found high stats to be one of the easiest ways to upset game balance. Primarily this is because the more aspects of play that you can contribute to, the more fun you will have. If your character can only meaningfully participate in combat, or only in adventuring situations, you are going to be bored when other aspects of play come up. For example, if you make a PC with a 6 charisma, you are going to be a detriment to the party in any social situation. On the other end of the spectrum, high stats generally make you dominate at things your character is already good at. For example, if you start you wizard with a 20 Int, and then craft items that boost it even more, you will be able to throw out spells that almost no monster can save against. You will not just be effective at what you do ,you will be neigh unstoppable.

Finally, high stats are much more effective for some characters then others. That wizard for example gets almost all of his power from Int. If you drop other scores, and boost your Int, you will be better at almost everything, because everything you do is Int based. On the other hand, a monk, needs wisdom, strength, and also con, and dex because you will be on the front lines. The monk just can't get those whopping high stats, because he is spread so thin. This is often a problem because full casters are usually the ones who are considered "overpowered", while non-casters tend to lag in power later in the game.

The best advice I can give is to start characters off by evening out their ability scores. For example, it is much more difficult to become a game shattering god wizard with a starting intelligence score of 16. I recommend limiting the max starting ability scores (AFTER racial adjustments) to 16! For the same evening-out reasons, I also recommend limiting minimum stats to 10 or 8 (AFTER racial adjustments). These limits will encourage PCs more capable of dealing with a variety of situations, and less able to damage game balance.

In general, stats are supposed to climb throughout the game, and that is part of the fun of leveling up and gaining treasure. If you start stats off fairly low, then you don't have to worry about restricting access to higher scores later on.


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Agree with arachnofiend, 25 PB really doesn't break anything at all, especially if you're not allowing 20s.

Quote:
Auto Bonus Prog prevents situations where a PC just saves up all their money and buys the best +6 stat thing way earlier than the challenges faced anticipate

Well, the WbL guidelines already say a player should never have a magic item worth more than half their wealth, which means a +2 item no earlier than 5 and ABP awards them at 6 and 7. So it doesn't seem like you can really game the system that much.


In my experience, it's not so much ability scores that you have to look at, but the comparative combat statistics of the party against what they will face in the adventure. Those stats can come from ability scores, items, feats, traits and everything else under the sun. When players have too high (or low) a chance to hit in melee, too high (or low) a chance to make saves, or their spell DCs are too high (or low), too much (or too little) damage output, that's what breaks the fun. Things either become too easy and boring, or too hard and frustrating. You'll often hear the advice that you should simply compensate with clever tactics, terrain, situations, timers, templates, extra minions, etc.

In the beginning, when the imbalance is relatively minor, those are easy and good ideas. However, if anything is true of Pathfinder, it's that as the levels rise, the imbalance between PCs and the bad guys inevitably grows. As a DM, you will find it increasingly difficult to adjust for, deal with and account for that growing power imbalance so that everyone has fun. It will also cause you to spend more and more time on "balancing" instead of being a good storyteller and thinking about the narrative you're trying to tell. It is even more problematic when some of your party are at an "elite" tier of power while some members are average or below. The weaker players will have their fun somewhat stolen by the stronger ones, and your job will be to continue to find ways for the weaker characters to shine. It's something every DM should care about and do, but if you can address the issue before it becomes an issue, you save yourself a lot of trouble.

Limiting players to a max of 18 after adjustments is a very good policy, in my experience. However, what you're really after is to have an understanding and gentlemen's agreement between yourself and your players as to what power levels you're all aiming for. Both you and your players have to keep to the agreed power curve. If they break the agreement, they won't find the adventure challenging and you'll have a lot more prep work, for the whole campaign. If you break your word on the power curve, you betray the trust of your players, and the game becomes "vs. the GM" instead of a co-operative one. If your fighters are hitting on a 5+, killing bad guys in one full attack, it's too much. If the bad guys only save on a 16+ from the player's spells, it's too much. If your monsters can take a PC from full health to dead in one full attack, it's too much. You want the balance to be in the party's favor about 60% to 40% for most of the math.

Hope that helps. It's a lot of work to kind of learn what makes for appropriate numbers at first, but eventually you get a natural feel for it.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
swoosh wrote:
Well, the WbL guidelines already say a player should never have a magic item worth more than half their wealth

APs blow this out of the water. Generally speaking, players are about a level ahead in their WBL, and that doesn't cover the artifact or two they have from either the 1st or 2nd book. By the 5th book, one of my Giantslayer PCs (a fighter) will have a major artifact and 2 minor artifacts, and the party will have access to yet another major artifact. Stats are the least of your worries. :)

The Exchange

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Stats aren't what break the game.

Picking and choosing the best items, archetypes, feats, and spells from 100+ books are what breaks the game.

I would recommend setting down guidelines for what books the party is allowed to use. Say...Core, APG, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, and Ultimate Equipment (plus the Adventure Path's Player Companion) at most to start. Add in Advanced Race Guide and Occult Adventures if you're comfortable with them. If they want to use anything else, take a good long look at it and decide if it is going to be too much. Especially the spells.

OK, stats do matter a bit:
The "game-breaking" stat is a caster's primary stat because that determines the save DC. If it gets high enough they end all the combats. However even then it won't be too bad. Most APs end by level 17 or before. So even if they start with 20 (after racial adjustment) and put all 4 level bumps in it and find/make/buy a +6 headband of that stat they get a maximum of 30. So a DC of 20 + spell level (+spell focus possibly). I would peak ahead towards the end and see if the BBEGs have a good chance of succeeding on a DC 31 save. If so, don't worry.

I wouldn't let them buy (or give them the time to make once they hit level 17) a tome. A few APs have books in them but I don't think they exceed a +2 inherent bonus (for a +1 to DC).


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One thing to really consider for game breaking purposes is a few "problem" spells. I call them "problem" spells, not because they're bad, but because they can accidentally throw things out of whack. Simulicrum is a strong contender, as are the calling or binding spells in general. Fabricate is an amazingly useful spell, and generally not problematic, but it can be when paired with infinite resources by, say, wall of stone (which is shaped into convenient blocks by stone shape).

While high stats can cause problems, this is less true for martial characters. I might recommend materials getting a few more ability score points to start, though still under the limited scores, if you feel worried about those. Bear in mind, though, that martial characters can have a head of a time meeting all the stat-requirements for their feats... a very real problem I'm only just now coming to understand as I work on the "Foght Good" project.

As others have said: usually, it's not the stat's fault, directly, but the combinations of things that blend with the stat to create a "problem" - but again, bear in mind, such things are only problems for your table, if they're problems for your table. You may find you enjoy "broken" stuff... or not! Either way, I hope you enjoy! :)

Hope that helps!


In the end, the only thing that breaks a game are the people playing. As a beginning GM, you need to be careful to keep a modicum of control. Don't start out trying to run PFS official games where you as a GM have more constraints than even the players. I mean Official Games, not modules, which are ok. Give yourself some leeway until you get a feel for how things go.

Higher stats mean the characters can be more effective with more things. How big a challenge do you want them to face? If they are underpowered it is easier to challenge them, but harder to allow them enough success to have fun when you yourself are inexperienced. It is too easy for weaker characters to die meaningless deaths. Remember, you ultimately command the world. As the big man said, "The players can out-think you, but they can never outgun you." For a beginning GM, Belefon's advice has ..some.. merit, it is easy to get baffled by the wide array of powers out there. Don't panic, it will NEVER go as planned. Nobody real is going to die if a game session falls apart. You will get better.

I'd probably start them at 20 points, it is actually harder to run a fun game for weaker characters, unless you actually want to be a torture master. Then maybe we have differing ideas on what fun is, and you should ignore this post.


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Honestly, lower point buys lead to more "brokenness" than high point buys. A wizard can still buy a 18 int on a 15 point buy and is the most broken thing in the game. Martials on a 15 point buy are hurting pretty bad and have to dump multiple stats. All higher point buys really do is open up more viable MAD builds, not meaningfully affect the peak of the Pathfinder power curve.

Basically, if a decision favors 9th level casters over martials, your probably heading the wrong direction on the balance curve.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Exactly, Daw.

Scarab Sages

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swoosh wrote:


Well, the WbL guidelines already say a player should never have a magic item worth more than half their wealth, which means a +2 item no earlier than 5 and ABP awards them at 6 and 7. So it doesn't seem like you can really game the system that much.

note, that unless you are starting at level x, the WBL guidelines about how much money can be spent are meaningless. Unless the dm says no item worth more than 50% of your WBL exists anywhere in the world, you could in theory save up and buy something worth more than half your wealth.


20 point buy is the one right way to generate stats.


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In my experience stats don't become broken.

I use a stat generation system that averages around a 40 point buy, and I've had players reach a stat as high as 50 during the course of the campaign. Didn't create any problem for me as the DM.

Then again, I run my own stuff, so everything is customized for the party. I've heard APs are pretty easy already, so I imagine they'd be a cake walk with the kind of stats my players' characters have.


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Stats don't really get broken unless you take to an extreme that well beyond what is normal. It is the build than can cause a problem, and even that varies by table.


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Stats don't break the game unless you do something really odd. Personally I go for 25 point buy with nothing over a 17 after racial modifiers. But ultimately a 20 just means a +10%chance for success over a 16 or 17. That is far from broken.

What potentially creates problems is aggressive optimization or under optimization(particularly when there are different levels of optimization within the party), not handling treasure/magic items wells and probably taking the game past around 14th level. Everything else can be managed by adjusting the challenges by the dm. The above examples go past the simple need to tweak encounters.

Sovereign Court

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If you're worried about it, just go with a stat array instead of a point buy. I actually prefer it a bit because point-buy is so beneficial for SAD classes (especially casters) and stat-array is better for MAD classes (many of whom need the love).

The only 'broken' way to jack up stats is the djinn wishing trick, but I know of games where that is considered par for the course. (APs do not.)


Stick to the 15 point buy if you're worried or 20 point if you're not. If you go with a 4d6 drop the lowest method, just add +1 APL to adjust for it. GMs that know how to use the CR system properly don't have problems with anything being "broken".

Scarab Sages

I always do 15 point buy in my games. It helps that I tend to run for larger parties of 5-8 players.

At a certain level, though, wily players will not be challenged much by combat alone. Then you have to get super creative and weird.


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Brother Fen wrote:
Stick to the 15 point buy if you're worried or 20 point if you're not. If you go with a 4d6 drop the lowest method, just add +1 APL to adjust for it. GMs that know how to use the CR system properly don't have problems with anything being "broken".

4d6 drop low is the equivalent of a 30 point buy (6X 5 points). You are claiming that this is the CR equivalent (+1) of the advanced template (+4 to all stats)?


thorin001 wrote:
Brother Fen wrote:
Stick to the 15 point buy if you're worried or 20 point if you're not. If you go with a 4d6 drop the lowest method, just add +1 APL to adjust for it. GMs that know how to use the CR system properly don't have problems with anything being "broken".
4d6 drop low is the equivalent of a 30 point buy (6X 5 points). You are claiming that this is the CR equivalent (+1) of the advanced template (+4 to all stats)?

My players used 4d6 as well, and through 5th level homebrew the encounters come out more closely to what I envision when I add 1 to the APL, or use the advanced template.

Encounter design isn't an exact science, but as you point out the 4d6 method results in a 30 point (all 4 of my players were even higher than 30), and you'll not be seeing the same encounter effectiveness if you don't adjust it upward. APL +1 or Advanced template is a quick way to do that.

Sovereign Court

GM 1990 wrote:
thorin001 wrote:
Brother Fen wrote:
Stick to the 15 point buy if you're worried or 20 point if you're not. If you go with a 4d6 drop the lowest method, just add +1 APL to adjust for it. GMs that know how to use the CR system properly don't have problems with anything being "broken".
4d6 drop low is the equivalent of a 30 point buy (6X 5 points). You are claiming that this is the CR equivalent (+1) of the advanced template (+4 to all stats)?

My players used 4d6 as well, and through 5th level homebrew the encounters come out more closely to what I envision when I add 1 to the APL, or use the advanced template.

Encounter design isn't an exact science, but as you point out the 4d6 method results in a 30 point (all 4 of my players were even higher than 30), and you'll not be seeing the same encounter effectiveness if you don't adjust it upward. APL +1 or Advanced template is a quick way to do that.

Just because it ends up being a 30pt buy does NOT make it as powerful as a 30pt buy. A 30pt buy goes exactly where you want it to while 4d6 doesn't. If nothing else, you'll likely end up with 2-4 odd numbers where the last number up does nothing for you mechanically.


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I wouldn't worry about it. I've come around to the thinking the 25 point buy is the way to go. It let's MAD classes be effective, it enables everyone to have a decent amount of skills (except for clerics who will often struggle to have a decent number of skill points). I would adjust encounters appropriately, but by the time spell DCs becoming insane, there is SR and other immunities to cause failure chances.

People who want to break the game will break the game. A generous point buy or letting casters get their main stat to 20 is not going to change that. In fact, it's pretty understandable because getting the casting stat to 20 gives an extra spell early on; it's less than fun to have 2-3 spells for an entire day. At later levels the extra 5% to DC and extra incremental spell is not going to matter terribly much. It just keeps casters from being horribly boring at 1-3.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:


Just because it ends up being a 30pt buy does NOT make it as powerful as a 30pt buy. A 30pt buy goes exactly where you want it to while 4d6 doesn't. If nothing else, you'll likely end up with 2-4 odd numbers where the last number up does nothing for you mechanically.

you're right, you can be more precise since you're picking which stats to dump, and bump. So yes, if you allowed 30 point buy, they'd be even more stacked on the primary stats. As it is, none of my players have a 9 or lower, one has 12 as lowest.

Overall the outcome still results in PCs that have considerable starting power, compared to a 15point buy, this will balance out over time, but for the first few levels they are closer to APL +1 than not, so consider it during encounter design.


Thanks for all the replies,everyone.
What my real concern is about whether or not players will have fun in combat; I'm not trying to kill them, but I want them to feel like they accomplished something instead of just walking through encounters. But from what everyone is saying building encounters to match the party should always be possible.
I see a lot of mention of early game, but I was thinking more of late game where things like belts+6 and tomes+5 become craftable. I don't want the barbarian in the group using Greater Vital Strike with his 36 str to one-hit the biggest threat before the Druid gets a turn.


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Sunstream wrote:

Thanks for all the replies,everyone.

What my real concern is about whether or not players will have fun in combat; I'm not trying to kill them, but I want them to feel like they accomplished something instead of just walking through encounters. But from what everyone is saying building encounters to match the party should always be possible.
I see a lot of mention of early game, but I was thinking more of late game where things like belts+6 and tomes+5 become craftable. I don't want the barbarian in the group using Greater Vital Strike with his 36 str to one-hit the biggest threat before the Druid gets a turn.

I've personally never played that high level, even back in my 1E days we tended to top out around 9 or 10th.

You'll read plenty of people on the forums who have, and the general theme of late game (15-20th) is that it is difficult to avoid just the scenario you describe. Its often referred to as "Rocket Tag", both sides have potential to drop the other fast.

That being said, if you start your game at 1st, and build up, you'll learn what the players can do as they gain those powers. It doesn't mean it'll change the late game, but you'll grow a set of skills in encounter design as well, and may be able to continue to create fun, challenging, and memorable encounters even at high levels.


Wait, what. How are you all getting 30PB with 4d6 drop lowest?
As far as I'm aware, it's roughly equivalent to 18.7 point buy.
4d6 drop lowest reroll all 1's is around 20.7.
2d6+6 is around 25.7.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

In 1E days, 9th/10th level was significantly different than it is today. Weren't dwarves capped at 9th?

APs in particular are all designed to go to around 16-18. The additional stats from a 25 point buy or even a 40 point buy aren't going to make the difference for 1-hit kills at level 16. I've not yet seen an encounter in the later books that will result in the scenario Sunstream described, but I can't say it doesn't ever happen, either.

I know the Order of the Amber Die crew ran through Giantslayer using the standard method and wound up with rather epic stats, but STILL basically lost against the final baddie.


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Broken means that it interferes with the way you want play to go, be it pont cost, class abilities/balance, or whatever. The value of all this is seeing where the different play styles fall into these numbers.

.....but.....

My nitpicking nature will not let this go.
You cannot convert the general 4d6-1d6 roll to a point cost. To get a point cost you MUST do the rolls, then calculate the cost. First, the roll might not average out. Second, even if it did, an 18 & a 10 average to to 14s, costing 17 and 10 respectively.

Minor point, but bad math bugs me.


Wow, I should never type distracted. The idea is still right, but I apologize for the incoherence. Assigning point cost cannot validly be done before the rolls.


Sunstream wrote:
I don't want the barbarian in the group using Greater Vital Strike with his 36 str to one-hit the biggest threat before the Druid gets a turn.

Don't worry about this specifically. Vital Strike doesn't benefit much from strength bonus, I'm pretty sure only the weapon dice are multiplied.


I believed in 25ptb. I dont anymore, 15pb all the way. I can give extra stats along the way as items, boons, divine interference.

A high point buy will cover weaknesses in pcs and make their resources last much longer. Swashs get more parries, monks more ki, people sacrificing stats for that 18/20 arent sacrificing much any longer.

Player mastery is a factor.


Do your players want to be mastered?


Just limit max starting stats to 18, or even better, 16. That will also make SAD classes less dominant. If you have munchkin players that'll start flipping tables at this then present it as a challenge for their superior build skills. These type of people usually love flattery.

And remember, high stats are only high in relation to low obstacles. Your players want to use every munchkin feat and ability from every obscure source there is? They want +30 pt builds? That's what you all enjoy? Fine, just raise every DC, AC, save, attack bonus etc of all opponents by, say, 10, and triple the HP of monsters. If they want to play a superhero game from level 1 (instead of from around level 10, were it usually starts) and you all think its fun, then just give them super villains and super obstacles to overcome.


taks wrote:
swoosh wrote:
Well, the WbL guidelines already say a player should never have a magic item worth more than half their wealth

APs blow this out of the water. Generally speaking, players are about a level ahead in their WBL, and that doesn't cover the artifact or two they have from either the 1st or 2nd book. By the 5th book, one of my Giantslayer PCs (a fighter) will have a major artifact and 2 minor artifacts, and the party will have access to yet another major artifact. Stats are the least of your worries. :)

The Skulls and Shackles game that I'm running has the same issue. The 5 PCs have a total of about 500,000gp worth of equipment and are just about to level up to 11th level.


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Since there was some discussion on equivalent point buy of a 4d6 drop 6 roll, I decided to try it out. I rolled 10,000 characters attribute arrays using that method. Since that allows for stats below the minimum starting stats in a point buy method, I used the following for the very small numbers: 6 -6 points; 5 -8 points; 4 -10 points; 3 -12 points.

My results:
Minimum: -19
Maximum: 64
Mean Average: 18.94
10th Percentile: 5
20th Percentile: 9
30th Percentile: 13
40th Percentile: 16
50th Percentile: 19
60th Percentile: 21
70th Percentile: 24
80th Percentile: 28
90th Percentile: 34
95th Percentile: 38
99th Percentile: 47


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A Barbarian isn't going to kill anything in one hit with Greater Vital Strike unless you're using the Mythic rules and Mythic Greater Vital Strike. A Druid should have plenty of ways to remain relevant.

If you want combats to be tough use good tactics for the monsters and have some of them "go for the kill" if appropriate. In a homebrew game you can also customize the monsters a little if you want. With a few extra levels and feats a lot of monsters can become a deadly threat. Something as simple as giving the monster a level of Fighter, having it wear armor to boost AC, and giving it the Cleave feat so it can Bite two PCs per round can make a dramatic difference. My players pretty much freaked out over that, like, "His AC is so high!" (ironically the "high" AC was the same AC one of the PCs had) and "How did he Bite twice?" (that's Cleave)

There could still be stuff which "breaks the game", but it probably won't be a high stat unless that's due to it setting a high DC on an overpowered spell. I'd put Greater Forbid Action or any damaging area effect cast as a Dazing Spell onto that list since they don't offer a new save each round like Greater Command, which is a reasonably powerful spell even though it does.

Scarab Sages

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Again, past a certain point the party will become too powerful to truly challenge with standard combats. Stuff starts to scale in weird ways past level 10 as your players find funky interactions and synergies in the ever-expanding pool of rules.

Don't worry about making ALL combats interesting or challenging: Sometimes it's okay to let the PCs steamroll an encounter and feel like big damn heroes. Just make sure to start throwing in "weird" battles or fights that happen under strange conditions:

- Aerial or underwater combat

- Combat in a structure which is collapsing/falling end-over-end down a mountain/falling out of the sky

- Illusions or mind control to set the party fighting each other (always a favorite)

- Weird gravity or topography (inside a spherical room, for instance, or among the gears of a giant clockwork.)

- Time dilation effects (time moving slower or faster in different parts of the battle-space)

- Lots of environmental hazards (lava, spikes, poison gas, fog, etc)

That kind of thing will challenge and engage the Players more than basic combat mechanics ever will.


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Mashallah wrote:

Wait, what. How are you all getting 30PB with 4d6 drop lowest?

As far as I'm aware, it's roughly equivalent to 18.7 point buy.
4d6 drop lowest reroll all 1's is around 20.7.
2d6+6 is around 25.7.

In my case, I worked the numbers backwards. How many "points" would you have needed to get the array each player produced with 4d6. None of my players were under 28, and one was almost 40. Saying it approximates something around a 30pt buy just puts a ball-park number on what you're going to be seeing.


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taks wrote:

In 1E days, 9th/10th level was significantly different than it is today. Weren't dwarves capped at 9th?

APs in particular are all designed to go to around 16-18. The additional stats from a 25 point buy or even a 40 point buy aren't going to make the difference for 1-hit kills at level 16. I've not yet seen an encounter in the later books that will result in the scenario Sunstream described, but I can't say it doesn't ever happen, either.

I know the Order of the Amber Die crew ran through Giantslayer using the standard method and wound up with rather epic stats, but STILL basically lost against the final baddie.

True. All demi-human's had caps on different classes, only humans had unlimited advancement. There were also some minimum pre-req stats for some classes, and of course "10% bonus if you had a score over X in the class prime requisite".


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

@MeanMutton:
Indeed. I don't really mind this because the party will ultimately get to use stuff designed for levels they'll never reach. Giantslayer caps at 17th level (not a hard cap, just how it works out), as do Hell's Rebels and Mummy's Mask. The final battles in all 3 will be epic.

@GM 1990:
And basic D&D was even worse. My mom recently told me she still has some of my books from then. I need to do a search when I'm back at her house this summer.


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Go big or go home. Lol


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taks wrote:

@MeanMutton:

Indeed. I don't really mind this because the party will ultimately get to use stuff designed for levels they'll never reach. Giantslayer caps at 17th level (not a hard cap, just how it works out), as do Hell's Rebels and Mummy's Mask. The final battles in all 3 will be epic.

@GM 1990:
And basic D&D was even worse. My mom recently told me she still has some of my books from then. I need to do a search when I'm back at her house this summer.

Yep but those paper books hooked my imagination back in the 70s. Somewhere in the last 2 PCS moves I lost a few moving boxes. Inside were a few years of Dungeon, Dragon mags, but also my Isle of Dread module from expert and Caves of Chaos . :-( I do still have my orange 20side from my basic box...its not playable though..will roll for a while before finding an edge.


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Sunstream wrote:

I'm an aspiring DM whose currently just running Adventure Paths until I get a better understanding of the game to homebrew my campaigns. One thing I've become concerned about is if player stats can reach a point of absurdity, that it becomes unbalanced in their favor. This hasn't happened to me yet, I'm just wondering if it's something I should look out for.

As a side question, what would you say is the highest reasonable number for a stat? I imagine this number would be different for each stat, right?

It's really for you to decide how high-powered a campaign you want to run. You should follow your players' cues about how high-powered a campaign they want to play in. Make it challenging for them. Make it fun for them.

There are myriad ways for a party to grow in power. Often, a party will develop gaps, blindspots, and Achilles's heels, and the more aggressively strong the party is, the more aggressively weak they often are. Keep an eye on that, and exploit it to make things challenging for the party. Don't give them more flavor than they can handle.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Do not EVER caps stats after racials. Put your caps in before racials. Otherwise, you're killing off a good part of the flavor of many races. Put the pre-racial cap at 14, rather than using an after racial cap of 18 if you need to. Playing a goblin who can't be any more dexterous than anyone else destroys half the fun.

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