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Greets all, I looked thru the posts to see if I can get some insight on a situation my group will soon face. The group is going to come up against a small colony of rust monsters. I looked over the beastiary, looked in the threads and I did not get any definitive answers, so I will pose my questions to see if you can help mw with this:

1. Rust monster has antennae +6 touch (rust) attack

Does this mean they make a normal touch attack against ? ? ?
a) the PCs touch AC
b) The item in questions touch AC

2. Also this "The object touched takes half its maximum hp in damage and gains the broken condition—a second hit destroys the item." The 2 attacks don't have to come from the same rust monster (does it)? Asa I mention there will be a few of these creatures and I am planning on having them come in waves or different directions, so a piece of armor or weapon may get targeted (hit) by a different Rust Monster. What I want to make sure that I understand correctly is that if I state that a weapon being hit by a RM has the broken condition, that if a different rust monster hits the same weapon then it got destroyed.

The way I see this playing out would be like this:
PCs come in contact with some creatures, RMs smelling metal move to engae (and eat). When a RM attacks, they make a touch attack against the PCs AC and they strike a piece of metal (I would guess the closest to them, prob a weapon), ontheir next attack they do the same and if it hits, they now have rust and an eat to their hearts content.
I also see it like this if there are two of them; PC strikes one, but does not kill it, RM 1 strikes touch AC and hits weapon (broken condition), RM 2 then makes a touch attack and hits the same weapon (destroyed).

Am I correct in this form of thinking or am I shouting Touchdown at a baseball game ?

Thanks for any help :-)

1. answer A. The item is wielded by a PC and the RM has a "touch" attack so the AC vs the RM's attack is the character's Touch AC.

2. correct, any 2 successful attacks on the same item from a RM's Touch attack and it is gone. It could be two hits from the same RM or two hits from 2 different RM's.

I love using RM's! PC's get quite upset once their armor and weapons are gone lol.
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The touched item gets a Reflex save to negate the rust effect, either use PC's save or the item's, whichever is higher.

The Rust Monster would go after whatever the nearest bit of metal is; could be a weapon, armor, shield, whatever. They're not smart so wouldn't necessarily coordinate attacks on one particular item unless there were just no other sources of metal within reach.

My best bit of advice on running rust monsters against PCs is: DO NOT RUN RUST MONSTERS AGAINST PCs!

This information will help.

Magical Items: Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item's Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.

Unattended Non-Magical Items: Non-magical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).

For added fun, add a couple RM with the Young template. The smaller sized and higher dex make them harder to hit.
Xot wrote:

For added fun, add a couple RM with the Young template. The smaller sized and higher dex make them harder to hit.

Or a Rust Lord ;) for a queen/colony leader scenario ;)

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Prepare to dodge flying books, dice, and whatever beverages are within arms reach of the players.
Sovereign Court

Note that rust monsters can (and will) rust metals other than iron. It may be worth it for players to toss a few handfuls of coins at the monsters to distract them for a couple of rounds so they can avoid being swarmed themselves. Pick off the monsters one by one or hide behind the druids/monks.

I've also seen a magus protect his new shiny adamantine scimitar by distracting the beast by tossing it all his old backup weapons one by one until he could make it to hiding behind my zen archer.

Also, Make Whole can help recover some lost items.
PRD Rust Monster wrote:
Melee bite +6 (1d3), antennae +6 touch (rust); and Rust (Su): An attended object, any magic object, or a metal creature can attempt a DC 15 Reflex save to negate this effect. The save DC is Constitution-based.

So they're getting both a bite, and a rust attack per round, although not a big amount of bite damage. Obviously these creatures are feared for what they do to metals.

A weapon, armor, etc on or being wielded by a PC is attended, so even non-magical items will get a save unless the PCs toss it at them. Upthread discusses the bonus the object uses for that DC15 save attempt.

Whether to use these types of monsters or not? They are in the Bestiary for a reason right?
I look at these just like monsters with level-drain - its a tool that used in moderation will often create a -real life- reaction that most encounters just don't do. Its not as dramatic as a PC dying, but that's probably the only thing greater than losing levels or losing magic items. For some groups or individual players, this kind of encounter will be enjoyable, I think for most groups it would be. I'd look at this and may even out of character say, "you are an evil, twisted, SOB." and then I'd look at my fellow players and say - Ok, now lets handle this problem. To me it's almost a sign of respect, just like actually killing a PC if that is what would have happened, that we as a group have enough trust and respect for the story that you the GM is willing to use some of the nastiest things in the Bestiary (in moderation).

You could even give them a clue or 2. Discover a discarded item, such as a wooden shield...where the small metal parts such as banding or nails holding the strap on it are gone. May build some tension.

However, if you have a player who tends to look at PF as a "win/lose" game, or who thinks there is a PC vs the GM atmosphere, this type of encounter will most likely lead to an out of character outrage. That kind of player will see this as you the person, taking something from them the player because you want them to "lose".

The only other thing to note, is that the game's reliance on magic/bonus progression and PCs keeping up a certain WBL can be affected quickly if they suddenly lose a weapon and armor. Two key wealth investments, that the "by the book" encounter and loot generation doesn't account for. You know the type of game you run, so you'll want to be prepared to account for this somehow with a reward sooner or later down the road.

I'd be interested to hear how the players (not the PCs) responded to the encounter and their thoughts afterward.
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I am far to paranoid as a player. I find my fighters investing in dragon scale armor, even in campaigns were we never encounter a rust monster.

I always wonder what's stopping Rust Monsters from getting out of hand, considering the crazy high concentrations of metals in civilized areas vs what can be scrounged.

I'd love to run a game where they've become more dominant, 'primitive' materials would be more common, as would other special materials, but in not sure much else would change,

Most adventurers carry things specifically to distract rust monsters. A bag of hundreds of copper coins with a few nails mixed in works great and is super cheap, horseshoes and pitons are also ready options... gives you plenty of time to pack up your metal stuff (away from touch attacks) and ready back-up armor and weapons.....
Blindmage wrote:

I always wonder what's stopping Rust Monsters from getting out of hand, considering the crazy high concentrations of metals in civilized areas vs what can be scrounged.

I'd love to run a game where they've become more dominant, 'primitive' materials would be more common, as would other special materials, but in not sure much else would change,

I would imagine commoners with bows would quickly deal with an otherwise annoying rust monster infestation.

It's not like farmers typically run around in metal armor swinging swords. Bows, on the other hand, provide food.
Snowlilly wrote:
Blindmage wrote:

I always wonder what's stopping Rust Monsters from getting out of hand, considering the crazy high concentrations of metals in civilized areas vs what can be scrounged.

I'd love to run a game where they've become more dominant, 'primitive' materials would be more common, as would other special materials, but in not sure much else would change,

I would imagine commoners with bows would quickly deal with an otherwise annoying rust monster infestation.

It's not like farmers typically run around in metal armor swinging swords. Bows, on the other hand, provide food.

True, but think how much metal is on a farm, plows, even cutlery, farm equipment, any metal in livestock pens and equipment. There's lots of metal on a farm.

Aren't arrow tips made of metal? Unless you make them from another material.
Liberty's Edge

Or use blunt arrows, that specifically have wooden rounded tips.

Commoners aren't proficient with bows.

PRD, NPC classes wrote:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The commoner is proficient with one simple weapon. He is not proficient with any other weapons, nor is he proficient with any type of armor or shield.

Bows are martial.

How did I miss that?
Commoner are my favourite class, well, after the Adept and Expert, well, and a few PC classes..
<3's the commercial though.
The Sideromancer wrote:

Commoners aren't proficient with bows.

PRD, NPC classes wrote:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The commoner is proficient with one simple weapon. He is not proficient with any other weapons, nor is he proficient with any type of armor or shield.
Bows are martial.

Tell that to all the rural folk that have hunted with bows through history.

If you truly want to be pedantic - give them slings. Rocks don't rust. Or just have them take the non-proficiency penalty; yay they need 20s to hit instead of 18s.

Blindmage wrote:


Aren't arrow tips made of metal? Unless you make them from another material.

I don't think it matters, arrows are destroyed after hitting their target. Unless you want the rust monsters to eat the arrowheads after they've been shot.

Grand Lodge

Rust Monsters occupy a unique spot in the bestiaries that they share with others. Rust monsters destroy equipment, which calls for replacement, and as such impacts wealth by level, in moderation, they provide a dampener on Wealth By Level, much like permanent negative levels, curses, petrification, and at higher levels, even death.

The issues with this in terms of player reactions stems from a central issue: "How can I afford to be prepared for this?"

Rust monsters are a CR3 creature, and therefore something a level 1 party could, within the logic of the CR system, face off against.

The thing is, there are dozens of other ostensibly low-CR creatures to deal with that also have niche equipment to handle. A second set of non-metallic armor and weapons is a huge investment with starting gold and level 1 wealth, which is going to be on top of having DR-penetrating backup weapons, alchemical weapons for swarms, holy water or an oil of magic /bless weapon for ghosts, and smoked goggles for a basilisk.

Throwing this monster at very low level players can feel like punishing them for being low level, which is a silly feeling to try and elicit at the game table.

In that case I'd make young ones using the Young Template, and make them half as effective, they'd take 2 hits to break and 2 more to destroy gear, and to 1d6+2 to metal creatures

Work out a whole ecology and stuff. I can picture them working with Blight Druids, destroying what civilization has built and such.
Ms. Pleiades wrote:

Rust Monsters occupy a unique spot in the bestiaries that they share with others. Rust monsters destroy equipment, which calls for replacement, and as such impacts wealth by level, in moderation, they provide a dampener on Wealth By Level, much like permanent negative levels, curses, petrification, and at higher levels, even death.

The issues with this in terms of player reactions stems from a central issue: "How can I afford to be prepared for this?"

Rust monsters are a CR3 creature, and therefore something a level 1 party could, within the logic of the CR system, face off against.

The thing is, there are dozens of other ostensibly low-CR creatures to deal with that also have niche equipment to handle. A second set of non-metallic armor and weapons is a huge investment with starting gold and level 1 wealth, which is going to be on top of having DR-penetrating backup weapons, alchemical weapons for swarms, holy water or an oil of magic /bless weapon for ghosts, and smoked goggles for a basilisk.

Throwing this monster at very low level players can feel like punishing them for being low level, which is a silly feeling to try and elicit at the game table.

I had a DM in PFS actually get upset when my level 1 character threw his only weapon into the cage the rust monster had escaped from instead of trying to fight the thing.

Of course, my character was a total non-combatant. He only carried the rapier for show.

Odds are good that the villagers who hunt are actually Warriors or Warrior/Experts. So yeah, they can use bows, and probably do.

A club isn't that hard to get a hold of for an adventurer. It's not going to break their bank. If they get caught unprepared, that's kind of on them. I don't believe rust monsters are meant to be a checks-and-balances effect on Wealth levels, but instead on resource use and equipment. You can almost always get away with little damage and get a new weapon or lantern. Sure, you might get unlucky and lose a handful of coins or an expensive item, but those situations happen.

Rust monsters are so easy to outsmart and the chance to avoid their rust attack is so much easier in Pathfinder than previously. You get a save and then even on a failure the item goes to broken, so you're getting multiple chances at avoidance even if you are making the conscious and foolish decision to not put your metal gear away when facing an otherwise pretty much harmless monster.

As for peasants and farmers, a stout club and some yelling is probably sufficient to run one off unless there's a mass of metal nearby. The rust monsters don't do that much damage, though they are tough to hit for a pair of commoner NPCs. However, wooden cages, a rope snare with a few rusty bits of scrap as bait (which won't attract any other animals) is probably more than a match for a rust monster problem. Even a lone peasant can club a snared rust monster, as unpleasant as that image might be.
Pizza Lord wrote:
A club isn't that hard to get a hold of for an adventurer. It's not going to break their bank. If they get caught unprepared, that's kind of on them. I don't believe rust monsters are meant to be a checks-and-balances effect on Wealth levels, but instead on resource use and equipment. You can almost always get away with little damage and get a new weapon or lantern. Sure, you might get unlucky and lose a handful of coins or an expensive item, but those situations happen.

"A few Coins, bro? They're hungry, they're going after the "bigger meal." They're the sort of creature that make it easy for jerk GMs to be jerks while still staying within the "rules" of the CR system.

The Ecology of the Rust monster article in Dragon was amazing. And there have been some relatives introduced, among them the Annihilator and the Folugub.
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
"A few Coins, bro? They're hungry, they're going after the "bigger meal."

Where are you getting this 'bigger meal' stuff. Like most animal-intelligent creatures, they prefer the 'easy meal'. They're hungry, they aren't violent or even all that interested in driving intruders from their territory in most cases.

Yeah, 100 copper pieces amounts to about 2 pounds of metal at a cost of about 2 gold pieces. Sure, that might not be as attractive as a 4-lb longword weight-wise, but it's probably a lot more attractive to a creature to have the equivalent of 8 quarter-pound hamburgers being dropped right in front of it free-and-clear than to get beaten over the head by a fighter with a club because it's trying to eat 16 quarter-pound hamburgers at once by going after his longsword. (See what the fighter did, he put his metal item safely away out of reach of the rust monster.) Actually, it's pointed out that that's a pretty common strategy that often works. Probably works even better than the shield in the example, since a pile of coins probably would take a bit more time to rust out each one.

But yeah, maybe you weren't carrying 200 copper pieces cause you're a big bad adventurer. I still bet you have a spare dagger. Yes, dropping a 1 gp. grappling hook or an iron pot to avoid or gain the upper hand in an encounter is very cost efficient. In fact, losing a 1 gold piece item to avoid losing an 8 gold piece item is what people refer to as 'smart'. Let alone risking a more valuable one. Those iron spikes you claim would break the bank... 5 cp. a pound. So, yah, bro. An adventurer can afford to not be an idiot.

So even if you have a chainshirt and can't reasonably get that off and stored away in time, you can drop an iron spike and run. You can drop another one and keep moving, drop three if you need to, I assure you, the 15 copper pieces is not going to effect your Wealth Level. I promise. You don't have to outrun the rust monster. You just have to outrun the iron spike.

Here's something else:

Quote:
Any metal touched by the rust monster's delicate antennae or armored hide corrodes and falls to dust within seconds,

Rust monsters also rust metal items that hit them, not just ones that they touch. Yes, their rust power is listed in connection with their antennae attack, but it is also clearly listed in their description. That means if you hit a rust monster with a metal object, you will need to make the Reflex save at that point as well, since any metal in contact with its hide also corrodes. So they can get you coming and going, but that doesn't make them unfair, it makes them a tactical encounter that requires more than "I stand there and swing my sword at it." It requires all the unfair expectations of "I stand there and swing my wooden club at it instead."

Edited out some stuff that might have been a bit unecessary/

It's not just the Rust Monsters -- it's what do you do when you have to deal with Rust Monsters and something else at the same time. Rust Monsters + hostile Stone Golems(*), anyone?

(*)And the Stone Golems has standing instructions not to harm the Rust Monsters, and have been around the Rust Monsters long enough that they are used to each other.
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Pizza Lord wrote:
A club isn't that hard to get a hold of for an adventurer. It's not going to break their bank. If they get caught unprepared, that's kind of on them. I don't believe rust monsters are meant to be a checks-and-balances effect on Wealth levels, but instead on resource use and equipment. You can almost always get away with little damage and get a new weapon or lantern. Sure, you might get unlucky and lose a handful of coins or an expensive item, but those situations happen.
"A few Coins, bro? They're hungry, they're going after the "bigger meal." They're the sort of creature that make it easy for jerk GMs to be jerks while still staying within the "rules" of the CR system.

I am pretty sure rust monsters will stop to eat dropped or thrown items rather than go after something else or fight for it....

srd wrote:
....Fortunately, it's often possible to escape a rust monster's attentions by throwing it a dense metal object like a shield and running in the opposite direction. Those who frequent areas infested with rust monsters quickly learn to keep a few stone or wooden weapons close at hand...
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I feel like these types of creatures as well as some of the iconics at higher levels (beholder, flayers) enhance encounters in 2 different ways.

1. Newer players with no idea about what they are or do.
The effect on these players is that surprise, shock, etc the first time they encounter a monster using certain effects (including things like level or ability drain per attack). Players will remember the first time that ever happened, as well as how they responded.

2. Experienced players who've read the bestiary cover to cover or remember them from the MM, MM1, FF days.
The effect on these players is also going to be surprise, and perhaps fear/dread....because they know what's coming. In their case, they may have the right tools at hand, or know the best tactics so it may not even affect them by the end of the encounter, but that doesn't mean it was a walk over. These are creatures that can be used to illicit a response from the players, and if you had that effect, then it was used successfully.
Scarab Sages
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Cohorts & Companions, page 17, has "Rust Repellent" which is a very affordable item which grants +2 to saves against rusting attacks and grants effect DR of 5 vs rusting attacks. A somewhat poorly thought out item, as rust monsters deal "half" damage with each attack, so a weapon with 10 hp becomes immune to rust monsters, while a weapon with 15 hp is dealt 2 damage with each rust monster attack. Clearly not intended to function like this.

I do think rust repellent is a good option to present to the party if Rust Monsters are a known enemy, but I would alter the ability regarding rust monsters to have them deal 1/4th weapon HP instead of 1/2 to weapons and armor coated - instead of reducing damage because that mechanic doesn't work with the RM fraction based attacks. So weapons would be broken after 2 hits, destroyed in 4, rather than the normal rate.

In general, I would assume Rust Monsters can sense which items are immune or resistant to their rusting attacks. They will attack the most "edible" items first. Though if they can sense it, then players should be allowed to use illusions/disguises to make items seem metalic or not.
Scarab Sages
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Blindmage wrote:

I always wonder what's stopping Rust Monsters from getting out of hand, considering the crazy high concentrations of metals in civilized areas vs what can be scrounged.

I'd love to run a game where they've become more dominant, 'primitive' materials would be more common, as would other special materials, but in not sure much else would change,

Rust Monsters probably taste like shrimp or lobster, judging by appearances. Kinda surprised they aren't extinct....

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