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But my question to you is, what lets the ninja take rogue archetypes in the rules if the ninja is not an archetype?Ninja was not released in ACG. It was released in UC. No alternate classes were released in ACG.
So, the easiest way to ignore Mark's comments are to claim that I only own UC, and can't use any rules or options from the ACG (including any 2nd printing errata).
The main reason being that I will just flat out ignore it, because it's a bit of a slap in the face, and it's another piece of straw being added to the camel's back.
So your only support for being a scout ninja is an old DEV comment, and ignoring a current DEV comment saying that he was writing for the PDT and probably should have used the PDT to state that alternate classes aren't archetypes.
Nothing in the UC says that a ninja can use rogue options.
Especially these lines in your quoted material, "an alternate class operates exactly as a base class" and, "alternate class can be used just as any of the other base classes found in the first part of this chapter." and "Alternate classes are standalone classes". Because to my understanding a "base class" is a cavalier, inquisitor, alchemist, gunslinger, and the like. None of those classes are able to take archetypes or FCB for any core class. And being a standalone class would also indicate that it doesn't have any actual ties to the rogue other than the restriction of multiclassing. Everything of the alternate classes say what they can use of their inspiration class, and if any of their stuff can be used by their inspiration class, further emphasizing that nothing would cross over unless specified. So all of this comes together to support the idea that the rules never supported a ninja counting as a rogue. So with what has been said, and as you just confirmed, there is nothing official allowing FCB or rogue archetypes to apply to ninja. And as the precedent of pathfinder is "that you can't do something *rulesy* unless it says you can" then the rule would be that you can't.
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Chess Pwn is correct that the ACG second printing says "Though similar to an archetype in many ways" not "While still technically an archetype".
unfortunately there are a lot of things that interact with a class and now we have no idea which parts work the same and which ones don't This When it was an archetype we knew exactly what the rules were. Now we don't know...
Can they take rogue favored class bonuses?
Can they take alternate racial bonuses?
Can they use magic items for that class/get the full effect of that magic items for the base class
Can they take feats that have a prerequisite of class level x
Mark seems hopeful that if we get a FAQ it'll say they can take FCB and other options. But until then, you're right, the rules say they can't.Chess Pwn is correct that the ACG second printing says "Though similar to an archetype in many ways" not "While still technically an archetype".unfortunately there are a lot of things that interact with a class and now we have no idea which parts work the same and which ones don't This When it was an archetype we knew exactly what the rules were. Now we don't know...
Can they take rogue favored class bonuses?
Can they take alternate racial bonuses?
Can they use magic items for that class/get the full effect of that magic items for the base class
Can they take feats that have a prerequisite of class level x
Yeah, it's treated like an entirely different class, now Ninja is woefully unsupported.Chess Pwn is correct that the ACG second printing says "Though similar to an archetype in many ways" not "While still technically an archetype".unfortunately there are a lot of things that interact with a class and now we have no idea which parts work the same and which ones don't This When it was an archetype we knew exactly what the rules were. Now we don't know...
Can they take rogue favored class bonuses?
Can they take alternate racial bonuses?
Can they use magic items for that class/get the full effect of that magic items for the base class
Can they take feats that have a prerequisite of class level x
Hey, they got their first archetype though. Now that we've have found out with us that ninja isn't a rogue they go and make stuff for it. Extra ninja trick and an archetype. Things that would have been made sooner probably if we'd had known they were needed and that we couldn't use the rogue's versions.
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So, the easiest way to ignore Mark's comments are to claim that I only own UC, and can't use any rules or options from the ACG (including any 2nd printing errata).
Actually, there aren't any errata on this issue. The 2nd printing of the ACG apparently has a text change which could be taken to imply that alternate classes are no longer archetypes... but that change is not included in the errata (or PRD).
Of course, if Ninja is NOT an archetype... then there is nothing preventing multi-classing it with Unchained Rogue. Alternate classes were only blocked from multiclassing with the base class by virtue of being archetypes.
Much simpler / more logical solution... alternate classes cannot be applied to unchained classes. Finito. Takes care of the ONE situation they want to prevent ('Unchained Ninja') without introducing a dozen other problems.
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Alternate Classes are just that, and whether or not it is considered an Archtype, the book clearly states that it can not multiclass with the parent class.
Please quote this 'clear statement'.
However, in any case... that isn't relevant to the scenario I specified. The Ninja is an alternate class of the Rogue. I said that if it is not an archetype then there is no rule against it multiclassing with the Unchained Rogue. Which is NOT its 'parent class'.
These are standalone classes whose basic ideas are very
close to established base classes, yet whose required
alterations would be too expansive for an archetype. In
this case, that’s the samurai and the ninja—specifically
Asian-themed classes that have long and unique histories,
as well as great cultural cachet, but which are similar in
concept to the established cavalier and rogue, respectively.
An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save
that a character who takes a level in an alternate class
can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai
cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.
ninja can never level with rogue. U rogue is still a rogue.
*I've already made these arguments, and had this one sufficiently refuted. I have giving the link to my thread that has the situation and links to the PFS thread where it started.
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The Unchained classes replace those that came before it, including their overall name and spot on the roster. Being built in a different way does not invalidate the Ninja's make up or requisites, as the Ninja is still an alternative class to the Rogue, unchained or not.
Thank you Chess Pwn for the quote.
So wait...
If Ninjas are Rogues, then Samurai are Cavaliers...
And Antipaladins are Paladins?
Reading the thread, this one came to my mind also. Antipaladin appearantly gets all the paladin FCBs - and can't use most of them. This is a general issue with archetypes and becomes more relevant as more class abilities are traded away.
Of course, a half-elf antipaladin with increased aura size is not that bad...
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It is denoting the simple fact that Alternate classes takes more from the structure of the class than what a regular Archtype does.
It also separates the two, in my own humble opinion. I also look at the Advanced Class Guide, seeing that all those classes are alternative mixes of the two parent classes they derive from. It was going to be (and should have been, I think) the same as Alternative classes as they were not going to be allowed to Multi-Class into their parent classes. This was taken out from the playtest versions when the ACG was released.
Now some complications begin when this happens, does x and y stack and will z be effected type of thing. This is what the alternative classes in the previous book(s?) prevented by not having them able to multiclass.
If alternate classes are archetypes then you can have an unchained ninja.
The DEVs decided no unchained ninja.
Making alternate classes not archetypes makes it easy to say that ninja isn't unchained.
No offense, but that seems overly dramatic, you've obviously been playing it for awhile without issue, so why make it dramatic until it's resolved one way or the other. :-)
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You can have Unchained Ninja they just don't want to put forth the effort to print another entry that just has all the Rogue stuff and Ninja stuff smashed together again.
That would be a waste of time and money for them.
They are Archetypes, They are the Classes. It easy and simple. If its simple and works and the other choice would make it less so then you chose the one that makes sense.
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On the boards it is viewed that ninja > core rogue.
On the boards it is viewed that ninja = Unchained rogue
It's clear that Unchained ninja > ninja
So if you unchained the ninja you're back at the problem of ninja > rogue and many people viewing the rogue as having no reason to be played.
Since you can't there's now a decision between rogue or ninja, free dex to damage or having all the nice ki abilities.
Because I like things to work.
Also, I have like half a dozen characters ranged 6-8. I'm not hurting for play.
I'm also hopeful that this just gets answered.
Fair enough, completely understandable. :-)
Not having a ninja in this race, but having a few rogues, I've always been scared away from ninja *because* of the 'nice ki abilities'.
If there was some effective way to get the rest of ninja without them...
On the boards it is viewed that ninja = Unchained rogueWhere? Because half the reason I see 'unchained ninja' threads pop up is because everyone seems to agree that the Ninja is more or less a dead class, both with very little reason to play it over its alternatives and more or less completely unsupported by the developers.
and many people viewing the rogue as having no reason to be played.This is also a bit misleading, because the core rogue is awful even without the ninja existing.
Ninja has a cha based ki pool and it's extra attack is with any weapon. It gets swift action invisibility and other ki powers. Those are reason's to pick the class. Yes, it's had little support, but it's still a viable pick.
Not a mislead, if you want 1.5 dex to damage the only way is rogue. Rogue has reasons to be considered for playing now.
If there's an unchained ninja then there's no reason again because ninja is a better rogue.
I do agree that the ninja could use some archtype love at the very least.
If rogue archetypes work for ninja then there's quite a lot of archetypes for ninja.
Not having a ninja in this race, but having a few rogues, I've always been scared away from ninja *because* of the 'nice ki abilities'.If there was some effective way to get the rest of ninja without them...
What would you want out of the ninja outside of it's ki pool?
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Ninja is a Rogue in black pajamas.
You can't take levels in both. Pick one or the other.
It is a fun class in its own right and well worth taking. It is just different enough that there can be a Rogue and a Ninja in the same party and they will have little overlap.
GM Hint: Give your goblins levels in Ninja. It's fun!
I do agree that the ninja could use some archtype love at the very least.If rogue archetypes work for ninja then there's quite a lot of archetypes for ninja.
Bandit, burglar, relic raider, sanctified rogue and scout. It's actually more archetypes than I expected but still hardly overwhelming. Almost every other archetype requires either trap finding or evasion.
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If there's an unchained ninja then there's no reason again because ninja is a better rogue.URogue still has debilitating injury, edge, evasion and danger sense. All that in exchange for a Ki Pool? Meh, not nearly as lopsided as you make it sound.
The UNinja would have the debilitating injury and edge too, those were freely added to rogue so they'd be freely added to UNinja. The trade from Core rogue to Ninja would be the same as URogue going to UNinja. Evasion and danger sense for a ki pool and poison use.
Effectivly, the text for UNinja would be:
Same as Ninja, but with Finesse Training, Debilitating Injury, and Rogue's Edge added from URogue.
/cevah