I'm legitimately curious. At low-level play, they seem pretty on-par with the bard, barbarian and their peers. Hell, at low levels, you'd be pardoned for thinking cleric and rogue were entirely on equal footing.
Where does the hype come from? Are we sure it's not purely from very specific builds ("Well, this one cleric build can get to crazy amounts of power!") or 3.5's legacy? Is it only distinct at high levels?
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I know this thread is probably going to turn into a radioactive dumpster fire, but maybe the answer will be buried within, and that's good enough for me!
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Let's not forget these guys can spend one feat to get access to standard action summons. While not as powerful as the summoner class it's still a standard action to add another ally to the fight and depending on hat you go it can utterly break it.
Clerics take a bit longer to get stupid than Wizards do, but when they do they are REALLY ridiculous. Honestly, who the f+@% thought Sacred Summons was a good idea...
7th-9th Level spells, so yes, Kobold (I see you in so many threads ^_^), they truly do mature finely as they ascend into the middle levels. For those that believe in Caster/Martial disparity, and the Tier-ranking system reflects that, CRB is where those awesome 7th-9th Level Spells reside. When I first picked up the CRB on that shelf and flipped through, my first thought was wow, everyone has a reason to monoclass to endgame now! All these goodies, and the casters got booned as much as the martials.
Rogue thankfully was revised with Unchained so they got some love too from Paizo. I find them as versatile as they can be burdensome outside of combat with their array of skills.
Whereas an Oracle has a limited selection but is able to better focus and specialize, the ability of a Cleric to select from such a wide array of spells as a prepared caster independent of a vulnerable and limited font (IE no spellbook), just leads to a very versatile PC who can sling spells and take a hit or two for the team, and the medium BAB at least gives them a fair chance to strike back in melee. Their Channel isn't something to scoff at either. Whereas martials faced with a threat that are unfortunately resistant to their current specialty may have to go back to the drawing board or seek alternative methods, give a full caster eight hours of rest and a couple of hours of prep -they will Batman the right sequence of effects/spells to topple the BBEG.
I have not met many parties that have omitted a Divine caster, and Cleric is arguably Divine's best answer and original counterpart to Arcane's Wizard in terms of benchmark.
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I was REALLY not a fan of the Oracle/Cleric spell lists. Maybe I don't actually TRY to break the game, so there are a few powerful things that just didn't fit my time oracle... but I had a horrible time even picking a spell I WANTED out of those lists...
They seemed a more buffing/support spells... and I really had a hard time playing that role. Maybe the clerics are a bit more offense then oracles... but just on basis of spells?? I don't see it.
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Let's look at the cleric on the whole.
Medium BAB: If desired, the cleric can wade into melee (or shoot, if they prefer) with some chance of success.
Medium armor: Passable defense against people trying to wade into melee or shoot them.
D8 HD: Middle of the road hp. Can take a hit or two, but should still try to avoid being close to heavy melee opponents for too long.
So, right there, a cleric can function in hand to hand.
Saves: Good Fort, Good Will. These are the debilitating and fight-ending saves. Add Wisdom bonus for more fun.
So, basic defenses are solid.
Spell list:
I've griped about the cleric spell list quite a bit over the years, but that's because I want a functional lightly/non-armored caster cleric. We're not talking about that here. We're talking about the bog-standard cleric.
With this spell list, one must ask what can a cleric accomplish. Well, let's see:
Healing: This is a given. For healing, the cleric spell list is the best overall.
Blasting: Not many blasting spells, but more get added from time to time. Not nearly as good as the sorcerer/wizard list, but it is an option.
Summons: We've got the basic summon monster I-IX line, planar ally line, and ultimately gate, plus a few odds and ends. Summons can be meatshields, they can be ranged attackers, provide a little utility or healing...summons are versatile. The cleric gets the whole list. A case can be made that just having these spells available makes the cleric tier 1.
Battlefield control: Some of this is scattered here and there in the spell list. Whether it's command at 1st level or wall of stone at 9th, options exist. Summons can function like this as well.
Buff/debuff: Clerics have one of the best spell-lists for buffing, with a few debuffs for variety. Divine favor, divine power, righteous might, blessing of fervor...yes, not as strong as 3.X for some of these, but they're definitely a good part of the list.
Utility: Clerics have a respectable, perhaps even excellent, ability to learn information through divinatory spells. They get a few potent travel spells, though later on overall compared to their arcane brethren (no spider climb or levitate in their early lists, nor fly).
As previously noted, clerics have access to their entire list. Given time to prepare for an event (which, as I note, they have access to plenty of divinatory magic to help them do so), they can usually find a good tool for problem solving, especially once they have a few levels under their belt.
Channel energy is a useful way to keep the party's strongest resource-spells-available longer. It's not excessive, and for true effectiveness the cleric must invest in it. But every channel energy used after combat is a few less charges off a CLW wand or a few more spells for the next fight. Once variant channeling is added, this can be a good source of buffs and debuffs as well.
Domains can add any number of variables to the cleric. Some make the cleric better at blasting. Some add new options for utility (e.g. Travel). Others add debuff options.
Taken together, the cleric has a variety of options for how he wants to deal with a situation. Like many caster classes, at low levels those options are limited and must be carefully considered. At higher levels, the doors open up and the universe is yours (perhaps literally, with plane shift and the create demiplane spells).
Now, to be fair: The cleric list of spells also adds quite a few highly situational spells. If you're busily selling weapons to both sides of a war between the marids and shaitan, your spells gainst good/evil likely won't help you, for example. The domain spell lists are sometimes rather bland. But the tiers are a measure of the versatility of a class over its career. And over their careers, clerics get a lot of tools to deal with a lot of problems. Many times, just conjuring up the right creature can solve your problem. Or a well-placed mace to the head. Or a quick wind walk spell to fly past an army. The tools are there for the cleric to use.
Does anybody have any examples from their games of a cleric getting "out of hand"? I think it'd be interesting, and it might make more sense to me.
Kobold (I see you in so many threads ^_^)
Aahahaha! I'm inescapable!
*Leaps through portal*
Well, on my 3.5 game, the cleric slowly turned from a buffer fighting cleric to a pure caster around level 10. It wasn't a once-in-a-lifetime experience, just the slow realization that while fights need to be won and damage needs to be dealt, there are people focused on doing that and there are many other problems that can be solved by a single spell - which you have it and the others don't.
Hold person has been used as a very simple save or lose at low levels. Blade barrier saved a paralyzed barbarian from cannibalism at the hands of a PC-classed ghoul. The banishing effect of Holy Word, while commonly overlooked, can be really powerful against outsiders - a couple hours ago in our Wrath of the Righteous game, a holy word single-handedly took care of half-dozen mythical salamanders before they even acted - a CR 16 encounter.
8-9th level spells are a myth.
It has been ages since I have seen one cast naturally.
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Building a battle cleric and slowly realizing your attack rolls are the least powerful thing you can do as you gain more levels.
I love Clerics, but I just hate building them. Mechanically dry.
Tiers are mostly subjective reasoning.
That said a cleric may not be particularly good in early game but becomes extremely powerful in the later play due to full level spellcasting and knowing all the spells accessible for his level. The fact they can wear armor and have a shield, generally have better defences than hps than most other casters make them a very powerful and flexible class. Since tiers are currently centered about how flexible a clas is/can be clerics are rightly considered tier 1.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Does anybody have any examples from their games of a cleric getting "out of hand"? *
- At 14th playing an optimized pathfinder beta cleric in a home brew highly optimized Ravenloft with a 3.5 Ultimate Magic Strad and an optimized vampire Blackguard and a bunch of optimized rogue vampires, the party was knocked unconscious round 1. The Cleric soloed the entire encounter by quicken channeling to heal while using various sunbeam/searing light spells to natural 1 fish to kill Strad. The battle lasted 2 sessions and took past Strad running out of spells.
- At 20th in a recent PVP, the cleric with greater spell immunity in a 1v1 vs a wizard used metatagic quick to quicken a empowered (with a -1 metamagic effect) storm bolts then used a metamagic gem maximize to normal cast an empowered maximize stormbolts. Dead wizard. Round 2, dead magus. Finals dead wild shaping Druid. Empowered 20d8 fort DC 34 for half is a lot. Especially when you can quicken mass heal 250.
- At 16th level, in rise of the rune lords final boss fight, using a cleric who burn feats on an animal companion and used mostly animate dead to run around with 32hd or more of cool good brutes like Giants. Wiped out all the final boss "minions" before being the second to last PC to fall unconscious leaving the investigator to solo the boss who was out of spells other than 1st level magic missiles. The investigator won with a double barreled shotgun.
Those are just 3 of my "played a cleric" tier 1 memories.
None are low level.
2) CL 25 greater spell immunity = no wizard can reasonable save or die me. No MeLee can full attack me to past my full hp and quicken 250 hp fixes "oops I'm at 32 hp".
3) clerics are better at animate dead stuff
I was REALLY not a fan of the Oracle/Cleric spell lists. Maybe I don't actually TRY to break the game, so there are a few powerful things that just didn't fit my time oracle... but I had a horrible time even picking a spell I WANTED out of those lists...
What you didn't notice is that a lot of those spell's are highly situational, which you don't want with the limited list of a spontaneous oracle. But in the hands of a prepared cleric, any of those situational spell's can be accessed with just 15 minutes prep.
Clerics take a bit longer to get stupid than Wizards do, but when they do they are REALLY ridiculous. Honestly, who the f$*$ thought Sacred Summons was a good idea...
If that is the one that only gives you standard action summons on outsiders with a very specific alignment then it is not really that good. I thought it was great the first time I read it, then I read it again, but overall I do agree that clerics are very good.
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[Opinion]
They're certainly tier 1 for boredom. They're the fighter of full casters in terms of class features.
[/opinion]
You can improve sacred summons by adding extra feats like summon good/evil monster or expanded summon monster. But then you are using extra feats in a playstyle that is already feat intensive. Part of why the herald caller is good, is that it skips some of that feat cost.
[Opinion]
They're certainly tier 1 for boredom. They're the fighter of full casters in terms of class features.
[/opinion]
I'm not seeing it. The fighter is mostly locked into his options on level up. The cleric can pick a new spell to play with every day.
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I'm not seeing it. The fighter is mostly locked into his options on level up. The cleric can pick a new spell to play with every day.[Opinion]
They're certainly tier 1 for boredom. They're the fighter of full casters in terms of class features.
[/opinion]
Cleric gets to pick spells, fighter gets to pick feats.
Otherwise they're both locked into a three ability boring progression. Fighter gets Bravery, Weapon, Armor. Cleric gets channel and two domains.
Edit: wait, you're right, they're not all that comparable. Fighter actually gets a capstone. :P
Another strike on cleric.
But the fighter is stuck with the feats he picks. The cleric has access to every cleric spell, every day. That is just so much variety on a daily basis.
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But the fighter is stuck with the feats he picks. The cleric has access to every cleric spell, every day. That is just so much variety on a daily basis.
If you recall my statement, I said they were the fighter of full casters. All full casters get power, and many get variety, but the rest of them other than cleric also get class features.
That's the point. Clerics are to other full casters like fighters are to other maritals. They lack real class features.
I'd say a spontaneous caster is closer to being a fighter of full casters, since they are more locked into their spell's. So, that'd probably be the sorceror being the fighter of full casters.
And I really don't think the wizard has any more interesting class features than the cleric. The wizard just gets some "boring" bonus feats.
Wrath of the Righteous is a different animal due to its mythic nature, but my cleric/Hellknight Signifer/Holy Vindicator was an absolute terror.
Of course, we're also talking about doing things like casting SLA Miracle and True Resurrection or swift action Mass Heal, so the examples are extra extreme, and we're also talking a 40+ Strength score that also let me keep up with the martials. I even had room to do things like take Divine Source three times to pursue my character's goal of self-actualizing to godhood post-campaign, along with taking Legendary Item three times just because I liked the flavor of creating a major artifact. In contrast, the martials had to carefully pick every mythic ability in order to keep up, whereas I was just able to blow over 1/3 of them on stuff I found cool & fun.
But strip away the mythic and a lot of that capability is still there, and scaled down evenly along with the rest of the party.
I'd say a spontaneous caster is closer to being a fighter of full casters, since they are more locked into their spell's. So, that'd probably be the sorceror being the fighter of full casters.
And I really don't think the wizard has any more interesting class features than the cleric. The wizard just gets some "boring" bonus feats.
Wizard gets arcane bond, and a school ability. That puts them about equal with cleric in my counting. Then they get bonus feats. Ho-hum? Not so fast, wizard gets special wizard only options for those feats. Things like fixing opposition schools, True names of outsiders, immortality, and so on. Unlike for instance the fighter specific feats (which so many others can take) no other class can take these wizard bonus feat options. Even using them just a bonus feats they mean free item crafting feats. Either way is a step above Cleric easily.
I'm legitimately curious. At low-level play, they seem pretty on-par with the bard, barbarian and their peers. Hell, at low levels, you'd be pardoned for thinking cleric and rogue were entirely on equal footing.
Where does the hype come from? Are we sure it's not purely from very specific builds ("Well, this one cleric build can get to crazy amounts of power!") or 3.5's legacy? Is it only distinct at high levels?
Status removal abilities. Remove fear and others that are just game changing to have in a group. A crap will save on the rogue or fighter becomes a far less pressing issue when someone can instant fix it.
Summoning. Full caster with summoning = auto good.
A few buffs and they are as good as fighters while being a BBEG spell counter and the literal Angel Summoner.
Oh and the piles of utility spells.
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Personally, I've found Cleric Domains to be really interesting abilities. Lots of flavor and mechanics that range from okay to amazing. Couple that with a spell list that grows in power and variety with every odd level, and you have a class ability list far more robust than "Aura, channel Xd6" or "Bonus Feat" over and over.
The one thing thag burns my butt is that 2 skill point per level thing, and even that can be overcome with archetypes. I've been meaning to roll up a Herald Caller with judicious use of Expand Summons to go with that alignment based feat for standard action summons.
PS: I'd take 9th level spells over just about any class capstone. Except Greater Aspect, anyway. GA rules.
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I'm legitimately curious. At low-level play, they seem pretty on-par with the bard, barbarian and their peers. Hell, at low levels, you'd be pardoned for thinking cleric and rogue were entirely on equal footing.
It's always important to remember in these things that at low levels the Caster Martial disparity doesn't really exist.
I'm no expert on Caster Martial disparity, but E6 games are often cited as a good way to eliminate the Caster Martial problem. Probably still a bit of disparity for a 3e or 3.5e game. But for a Pathfinder game E6 means most casters are just on the cusp of where they will break the game.
As for Cleric, well. Second best spell-list in the game and they have access to all the spells for free. That's pretty killer.
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I'd say a disparity exists at low level, but it's not power based at all. It's just a disparity in the number of situations you can be helpful in.
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I think the tier system is overrated. It's tempting to use a system which boils down the overwhelming number of classes to a handy amount of 'tiers'. And it's beneficial as a first step for class selection - whether you want to be versatile, powerful or an underdog.
But, as any model, it has limits. It only describes versatility and power, but not the most important thing: Fun. 'Tier 1' doesn't mean tier 1 at fun. I usually prefer a rogue over a cleric, because it's much more interesting to play for me.
For comparing classes the tier system gives you a rough idea. But it doesn't take player skills, campaign quirks and interaction with other characters into account.
I'd say a disparity exists at low level, but it's not power based at all. It's just a disparity in the number of situations you can be helpful in.
I'm not sure if I agree that much.
I can see the argument existing there for prepared casters, sure. But, at low levels the Skill Monkey is actually a thing that's very playable and can be good and broad. At low levels having those skills can be about as good as your limited spells per day.
Also, I would straight up say that if you are going to make the argument that there is a situational disparity there absolutely is a combat power disparity in favor of martials. At low levels the iterative attack problem isn't as big of an issue and those bigger high die and BaB benefits that become minor in the dynamic of high level combat are actually really relevant.
Right now in our games, I'm playing a spontaneous caster at low levels and there is a super martial. Granted, in combat against humanoids I keep up with him or even exceed him by enchantment shenanigans to convert the enemy. Against anything else I have some control options, but mostly am totally useless by comparison. At one point I just sat down in a chair against a boss and phased out to tumblr.
Our other caster is a prepared caster and a lot less focused than me. And as such has no where near the combat prowess to her name the two of us do. Whereas the two of us are eliminating enemies in a single turn, she's been a lot more useful in out of combat versatility with the One Ring we found in the shape of the Crystal Skull.
Out of combat, the martial has found himself often with nothing to do. Which is partly just down to roleplaying since the prepared caster is often ending up making checks she has no skills in. But in it he's easily the most powerful member of our team by a country mile.
The damage disparity favoring martials exists for quite a long time, at least in single target damage. For example, even in bursts, a tricked out burning hands is pretty minor damage compared to a raging and power attacking barbarian.
The only blaster that can come close is the cross-blooded sorceror. And while that can be used as a dip for other blasters, that means their own casting progression is delayed. But eventually all blasters start pulling ahead when they get their quicken metamagic rods.
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Clerics take a bit longer to get stupid than Wizards do, but when they do they are REALLY ridiculous.
Really? Normally they dump Intelligence at 1st level . . . :-)
Honestly, who the f%*! thought Sacred Summons was a good idea...
Could be worse. As long as this isn't the same person who thought Sacred Geometry was a good idea, they are at least eligible to undertake a Quest for Atonement.
The whole Tier 1 thing started with CoDzilla. Not WoSzilla. a 9 level caster with all the armor and weapons he can want, full access to every spell on a prepared caster list, decent combat ability, great saves...
And 9th level spells are capstone abilities more powerful then anything a fighter gets, and a cleric gets 5 or so, starting at level 17 instead of 20, that they can change EVERY DAY.
And wha, your melees couldn't deal 250 hp dmg/rd at 20? Someone needs to optimize their melees more. Heh!
A battle cleric can replace a fighter in doing the fighter's job if they desire to. And then do other jobs if those are required.
Whereas the fighter can only do his own job, and doesn't have near the defenses a cleric does. Also, the fighter can't do near the damage a cleric can using his own class features. He MUST spend money, esp on consumables, to do so.
The cleric just casts them ahead of time.
Just, ugh.
More like, "Hey guys, let's kill the dragon."
"Okay, tell me when we are about to get there so I can prep."
The whole Tier 1 thing started with CoDzilla. Not WoSzilla. a 9 level caster with all the armor and weapons he can want, full access to every spell on a prepared caster list, decent combat ability, great saves...
And 9th level spells are capstone abilities more powerful then anything a fighter gets, and a cleric gets 5 or so, starting at level 17 instead of 20, that they can change EVERY DAY.
And wha, your melees couldn't deal 250 hp dmg/rd at 20? Someone needs to optimize their melees more. Heh!
The CoDzilla you're talking about does not exist in Pathfinder. Divine Power no longer increase BAB and doesn't stack with Divine Favor at all, the unholy trinity of persistent metamagic, divine metamagic, and nightsticks are all gone, and polymorphing has been nerfed dramatically.
No longer can the same cleric or druid be the strongest martial and a top caster without loaded stat dice. Indeed, it's really hard for them to be the strongest martial at all.
Atarlost, CoDzilla is based on CORE cleric or druid. Without all the add-ons. Core spells are THE most unbalanced spells in the game, when it comes down to it.
And with Rings of Continuity and stuff, Persistent spell cheese variants are perfectly possible.
And I did not say 'the strongest martial'. I said 'able to do the fighter's job, and then do other jobs.' There's a big difference.
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A battle cleric can replace a fighter in doing the fighter's job if they desire to. And then do other jobs if those are required.
Whereas the fighter can only do his own job, and doesn't have near the defenses a cleric does. Also, the fighter can't do near the damage a cleric can using his own class features. He MUST spend money, esp on consumables, to do so.
The cleric just casts them ahead of time.
Just, ugh.
The Dragon come near, roaring and charging the party.... Then.. A scream is shouted,!
STOP Mr dragon, said the cleric. " give me 15 casting rounds and than let's see who is the man ....."
The cleric return the fight, to see 3 dead party member and a dead Dragon next to the almost dead barbarian.
" well... " said the rightous giant cleric, " good thing I learned raise dead...
What you mean is:
The Dragon come near, roaring and charging the party.... Then.. A scream is shouted,!
"Buff up! We'll cover for you!" cries the party fighter nobly.
"No need!" said the Cleric, a quickened Righteous Might shooting him to giant size, and battle is joined.
After the fight, the party fighter looks at oversized cleric as he heals everyone in the party. "Don't you need time to buff?" he asks, as his burns and bruises are healed. He notes the cleric took MUCH less damage from the dragon's attacks then he did.
"Buffs? Oh, I cast most of those HOURS ago," the cleric says kindly.
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Tiers are mostly subjective reasoning.
Agreed 10000%!!!
Any time I see someone bring up the who Tier thing, I start to twitch. There is just no such thing as a rigid, accurate categorization for classes and I really would love to see the whole Tier quasi theory just fade away once and for all. It's such an over-simplistic, completely arbitrary and, frankly, meaningless attempt at trying to quantify something that just doesn't need quantifying.
As for clerics, I find them extremely fun and flavorful to play. I certainly don't find them to be over powered.
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"I'm quite good with my bmx/sword”
" or I can just summon the angels. No problem "