Meleeing better than a wizard??? Seriously? Well, okay. Clerics melee better than a wizard. You got me there. =)
Clerics healing again doesn't make the cleric powerful. It makes them a walking band-aid.
Clerics having a broader array of defensive spells than a wizard? I do believe I will have to object to that. Shield, mirror image, blur, globe of invulnerability, invisibility, anti-magic field, mind blank... just off the top of my mind. What do clerics get? Sanctuary? Resist energy? Yeah, I believe I will take the wizard defenses any day.
If you want to make a DD wizard, yes, you will optimize your save DC. But let's say you optimize the s!$% out of a cleric for DD. Do you even get any good at it? How wicked can you make that fireball, going all-out with archetypes, feats, items?
Being able to heal yourself and get rid of conditions gives you staying power. When the rest of the party is sucking HP and down with curses and disease, you're still standing tall.
That is POWER. It is the main reason why fighters can't 'go all day'. They don't have the staying power.
You're stuck in the fact that clerics can 'give healing away.' Well, just imagine if the cleric ONLY HEALED THEMSELVES.
Yeah.
And consider how much staying power that is. More hit points then anybody else for the long haul is POWER, make no mistake about it.
I admit the zombies can be useful. For an encounter or two. They are individually weak, and will accrue losses quickly. The situation just keeps getting worse for that strategy, with enemies either whacking the zombie pests several at a time, or ignoring them and going for you, at higher levels.
Every whack on a zombie is a whack you aren't taking.
Zombies can be buffed, even Hasted. Numbers are a power all their own.
It's a low level solution to a low level problem.
And as you level, you can create stronger, tougher undead. The discrepancy gets bigger, instead of smaller. As someone pointed out, at level 5 a cleric can Animate a 10HD, 75 HP hydra, which has 10 attacks.
250 gp.
Haze, action economy is what rains on that little parade. Sure, the cleric can possibly heal and restore s+~$ that comes his way. But if he does, he isn't doing anything else, thus giving the enemy another round to throw s#@& his way again. Also, cure wounds spells are not that powerful. You will only manage that at very low levels. Heal is nice, of course, and changes the picture a bit. Just as has been said in EVERY. SINGLE. DISCUSSION. about in-combat healing on these boards.
Haze, action economy is what rains on that little parade. Sure, the cleric can possibly heal and restore s$&# that comes his way. But if he does, he isn't doing anything else, thus giving the enemy another round to throw s!&! his way again. Also, cure wounds spells are not that powerful. You will only manage that at very low levels. Heal is nice, of course, and changes the picture a bit. Just as has been said in EVERY. SINGLE. DISCUSSION. about in-combat healing on these boards.
It's an option mages don't have.
You can do it in combat, or out of combat as needed.
It gives you more hit points. That's all that's critical. Who cares if its not a combat spell? Teleport w/o error technically isn't a combat spell. A spell to give +10 to a craft check isn't a combat spell. Major Creation isn't a combat spell.
But HEALING and Recovery Options are very powerful effects that definitely has an impact on combat. If you don't believe me, run an AP with 4 fighters who have no healing, no recovery options. Then run it with 4 clerics.
4 clerics will curbstomp any AP you can name. Every single encounter is going to play vastly different because of the options the clerics have, and the fighter doesn't. Even a wizard party is going to have issues with recovery options that a cleric just handwaves away. At the very least, for wizards or fighters, its skill points spent on UMD and money spent on recovery items/scrolls/wands that a cleric doesn't have to spend.
Always wanted to make a full on scimitar-of-fire cleric of Sarenrae. This thread may push me to doing it.
And there's the always lovely animate objects at later levels... Nothing like telling a tree to attack a druid. XD
Hell! Nowadays you can buy a Guided weapon and have super high attack attribute without sacrificing an ounce of casting power.
Excellent. Now, remember, to build this fire-scimitar cleric, absolutely do not focus on getting good at melee - you won't need it as a tier 1 cleric.
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You know, Sissyl, your same arguments would mean Wizards aren't Tier One, either.
And everyone knows that's a silly position to take.
That's close to my thought as well. Someone -- I didn't check who, my bad -- asked Sissyl upthread for an example of a "tier 1" class if not a cleric, and I didn't see a response go by.
Given Sissyl's systematic misinterpretation of "tier 1," I don't think there is one. Her reading of "capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing" seems to have magnified into "capable of taking any action I can describe in words" and "must be better than all other classes at all times." Which, of course, is a ridiculously high standard, to the point of self-contradictory. Yes, we all acknowledge that a summoner can be a better summoner than a cleric, although the absence of planar ally on the summoner list makes the comparison a surprisingly tight one.
Similarly, a barbarian is often a better frontline fighter than a cleric, although the cleric has spells on her list that (again) make the comparison a surprisingly tight one, especially under circumstances (such as against undead) that favor the cleric.
... which is what most English speakers would understand "often better than classes that specialize in that thing" to mean. The fact that I can, without much trouble, come up with a situation where a cleric is a better summoner than a summoner is part of what makes a cleric tier 1.
But, let's pretend for a moment that a cleric really is tier 3. So, obviously, is a wizard, since a wizard has all the limitations of a prepared caster, plus the more limited spell list, much less success at any of the more physical tasks (such as front-lining). With their limited spells known, no spontaneous caster can hope to achieve the flexibility of someone casting out of the full depth of a wizard's spell book. So her misreading of "tier 1" is essentially relabelling every powerful, flexible class as "tier 3" because none of them are actually omnipotent in the traditional Judeo-Christian sense.
But at that point, tier 3 is getting overcrowded. So, is there any sensible way to compare two members of the new tier 3? Say, for example, a cleric and a bard? A cleric obviously has a much better spell list in terms of both depth and breadth, and the advantage of full 9 level casting while being a better front-liner than the bard because of heavy armor proficiency.
So, maybe if we made some subtiers, as follows:
Tier 3-A. Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Witch, Arcanist
Tier 3-B. Sorcerer, Oracle
Tier 3-C. Bard, Skald, Inquisitor, Magus, Investigator, Warpriest, Hunter
.... and now we've solved all of the problems with the tier system because we understand that clerics don't break the game because they are tier 1; they break the game because they are subtier 3-A.
I'm not sure why you are being sarcastic. Being able to be awesome at melee AND cast spells is one of the hallmarks of a cleric, and one of the reasons why they are Tier 1.
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And hey, Orfamay, for Sorcs, at least, the ability to take a spellbook and go spell diving as needed is totally possible by feats and magic items now. A sorc who takes advantage of them is Tier 1 all the way.
Awesome at melee. Sure, if you focus on that. Take the feats. Lay out your stats for it. Get the equipment you need for it. You will approach the power of the specialized meleers.
But we are discussing whether clerics are awesome meleers without focusing. Or awesome summoners without focusing. Or awesome direct damage dealers without focusing.
And hey, Orfamay, for Sorcs, at least, the ability to take a spellbook and go spell diving as needed is totally possible by feats and magic items now. A sorc who takes advantage of them is Tier 1 all the way.
This. There's a sorcerer who makes full advantage of the ring of arcane cheating and she's just as powerful (if not more) than the wizard in the party both in and out of combat. The only thing she needs him for is that there's some things she doesn't have the strength score to cheat on with blood money and he's good with a bow or sword when he wants to conserve magic.
You're doing it again. You're trying to make it so they are better then optimized melee-only characters. They have only to do the job if they need to do it...and if they have to, they can do it very well.
You're probably also thinking that a cleric MUST be built with 12 Str and 18 Wis to be effective. There's a lot of optimizers who will tell you otherwise. Building a battle cleric is not hard at all, and they usually start with a 14 Wis or so, and 16 Str. Then you start adding in domain powers and it can get really sick, really fast.
And the only feat they need to take is power attack. The rest is just spells and gear.
You do realize that most non-fighter melees don't actually take a ton of combat feats, right? It's more general feats that shore up defenses, and utility abilities. Heck, Barbs generally grab more rage powers.
The Feat, Versatile Spontaneity, is the other one, Hyper.
Clerics are tier 1. They are "Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing."
There is not an CR appropriate encounter or necessary action in the game that a cleric cannot defeat, most better than most other characters. A cleric can buff themselves so far that they make a barbarian look sad. They can control an entire NPC army of barbarians, undead and allies.
The tiering system does not speak to "time to do task". It doesn't matter that the cleric needs 24 hours plus 15 minutes to solve a problem; it's the fact that they can solve every problem. The optimized barbarian cannot solve every problem.
The tiering system does not take into to account fringe or weighted scenarios. Naked in a closet, a lizardfolk barbarian will possibly rend a wizard limb from limb if it wins initiative.
Being tier 1 doesn't make you invincible. The DM can kill you instantly by fiat.
Being tier 1 means when you compile a list of all the things you needed to do, your list is complete and the barbarian's list is incomplete.
Being tier one means you do much of what you did better than the class "expert", BUT not the same way necessarily. When he barbarian brags about their 200 hp critical hit, you point out that you save or died a 1000hp creature effectively dead.
I do not have to hit as hard and fast as a barbarian to deal with my target better. I simply need to remove the threat more effectively.
The irony is that a spell-buffed cleric is an incredible beatstick in addition to a banishing monster.
All of this is possible without a prestige class or "trick" build. There will be lots of times when a tier 1 class PC dies anyway while the tier 5 class didn't. that's the nature of random dice and adventuring.
But we are discussing whether clerics are awesome meleers without focusing. Or awesome summoners without focusing. Or awesome direct damage dealers without focusing.
You're misrepresenting again. Tier 1 doesn't mean "awesome" at everything. It means "good" at everything, often with flashes of awesome.
Excellent. Now, remember, to build this fire-scimitar cleric, absolutely do not focus on getting good at melee - you won't need it as a tier 1 cleric.
I don't have to focus on melee combat as a cleric to be decent. Haven't you read this thread?
Actually clerics want three feats for melee combat. Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, and Pushing Assault for GLORIOUS REACH TACTICS.
Meh. Too much investment. Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, maybe Heroism, maybe a domain smite, Craft Magic Arms and Armor to make half price gear, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Air walk, add Power Attack and maybe a domain weapon focus.
There, you've got a combat cleric.
Oh, I've got HOW MANY FEATS LEFT? well, then, do what Hyper is saying.
But we are discussing whether clerics are awesome meleers without focusing. Or awesome summoners without focusing. Or awesome direct damage dealers without focusing.You're misrepresenting again. Tier 1 doesn't mean "awesome" at everything. It means "good" at everything, often with flashes of awesome.
Nor does it specify "with zero investment" or "every day, all day".
- - -
Let's say there are 6 types of situations... A, B, C, D, E and F.
A Barbarian would be exceptional at A, but he'll most likely be mediocre at best in C and D and probably not even be able to contribute in E and F.
A Bard would be exceptional at A and B, good at C and D and mediocre at best E and F.
A Sorcerer can be exceptional at any 2 or 3 of those... And good at the others... But he has to choose what he wants to be exceptional at. And he'll probably be mediocre at best in one or two of them...
A Cleric (or Wizard) can choose to be exceptional at any 2 or 3 of those... But unlike the Sorcerer, the next day he can be exceptional at something completely different. Or he can be exceptional at the same thing and change what he's "only" good at.
Your melee-focused Cleric who only took melee-based feats is suddenly a great spy... Or builder... Or transporter... Or explorer... Or siege weapon... Or healer... Or sailor... Or summoner... Or...
Strong, can do anything, but can't do everything in the same character. That sounds like tier 2 to me.
They can do everything in the same character... Just not in the same day. All Cleric builds still have access to all their spells.
aye, there's nothing saying they can do every role at any moment. But they can do ANY role, and do it well, with some planning. That's the difference.
And yeah, that was a 3.5 post, simply because Persistent Spell, Divine MM and Nightstick allowed the cleric to completely take over the melee role ALL THE TIME...and then still be available to do everything else. There was literally nothing better for a cleric to do with their feats. Feats were just not that important for a cleric.
The fact the Paizo cleric can't do the melee role 24/7 is not to say the cleric can't do the melee role quite well for short periods of time...like, the time of a 1-2 min/level buff. And if we start adding in Domain smite/attacks, which can be VERY strong, clerics can certainly wreck face if they want to.
So, actually, the tier 1 claim is not that strong? Most of it was lost in transition from 3.5? Colour me surprised. And for all your snark about subtier 3A and stuff, fact remains that the cleric is now admitted NOT to be able to do more than "do the melee role quite well for short periods of time", "with some planning".
Fights only last short periods of time. How is that bad? We aren't playing 20 hour battles, here.
And if you've got spell slots, you can do it for multiple fights.
But, really, getting into Melee is an emergency situation. The cleric has buffs, summons and crowd control he can deploy before it comes to that. You seem to be fixated on 'uber melee, all the time', when between the above, and the ability to melee if needed, the cleric can basically replace the group melee with very little problem.
Tier 1 all the way.
Do fights last long, or short, now? I have always seen it go to somewhere like three rounds, maybe four. Often two.
If so, there simply is no time for buffing. Or whole round summoning. The fight will be mostly over before your buff cavalcade is done. Your summoned creature will appear when what remains is mopping up.
It's impressively Schroedinger to discuss this with you guys. Buffs are massively powerful, so apparently you have some twenty rounds to fight in. Then buff durations don't really matter because fights are short.
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You know if you haven't convinced each other in 228 posts, don't think that it will happen. Might be time to agree to disagree.
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You know if you haven't convinced each other in 228 posts, don't think that it will happen. Might be time to agree to disagree.
Saying things like that can get you banned from the internet.
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Yeah, probably. After having played a significant number of clerics, both in 3.5 and in PF, I remain convinced that the old slogan about how massively powerful clerics are, even in PF, is b$@#*!&%. Mostly, it seems to be about how clerics can be great to have in the party for everyone else, how they can "solve any problem" using magic information they get from "divination spells" which remain unspecified and oceans of time that they don't have. Without focus, they suck at most of the roles that are available in combat, whether it is getting up close to cast save or suck spells, not having the spells to deal good direct damage, summoning which typically summons something miserable four CRs below you, or melee which gets you whacked with only medium BAB, medium armor, medium hp. To shine with a cleric, you need to focus so hard that you will exclude most other options. Despite all the snark, I fail to see how water breathing makes a cleric tier 1.
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Saying things like that can get you banned from the internet.You know if you haven't convinced each other in 228 posts, don't think that it will happen. Might be time to agree to disagree.
I know.
And I see it didn't help either, :(
Oh, it did. I am leaving the discussion.
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And obviously all fights start with surprise attacks on round one, defensive casting isn't a thing, quickened spells don't exist, you can't cast divination spells ahead of time to see what you are going to be fighting and when, summoning spells for scouting are never used, and Planar Allies always stay at home to not help out.
Clerics are only walking bandaids!
If you aren't awesome at everything all the time, then you're not tier 1... It doesn't matter if you have one of the most powerful and versatile spell lists in the game, access to all your spells and the ability to switch prepared spells every single day to fit whatever challenges you're most likely to face.
You see... PCs never have any idea of what enemies they will face and never have any time to prepare. All parties randomly teleport to random scenarios with random enemies and random conditions after every encounter.
Obviously, those who say Clerics are tier 1 have never actually played a Cleric... Or at least, not a significant number of Clerics.
If you aren't awesome at everything all the time, then you're not tier 1...
So GM is the only Tier 1 class. ;)
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Is everyone hype for my follow-up installment, "Why is the Wizard a Tier One Class?"? I bet it's gonna be even better than this one!
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This thread, with all its round and round bickering and ultimately meaningless quasi-conclusions, is pretty much exactly why I say any discussion of the so-called tier system is a waste of time.
Not that this thread will not continue for another 100 posts of folks arguing about what the tier system says, how it has any actual value, or what class fits where ...
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If you aren't awesome at everything all the time, then you're not tier 1...So GM is the only Tier 1 class. ;)
Yes... Unless you're playing PFS and therefore can't change the AP scenarios. XD
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Is everyone hype for my follow-up installment, "Why is the Wizard a Tier One Class?"? I bet it's gonna be even better than this one!
This thread, with all its round and round bickering and ultimately meaningless quasi-conclusions, is pretty much exactly why I say any discussion of the so-called tier system is a waste of time.
Not that this thread will not continue for another 100 posts of folks arguing about what the tier system says, how it has any actual value, or what class fits where ...
I'll put you down for a "maybe".
combat prowess is A of the A,B,C,D,E,F.
Clerics can do combat, even poorly made clerics have stuff they can contribute in combat that is useful for ending a fight.
If the cleric wants to contribute in combat by Doing weapon HP damage then you build for that and at most it takes 1 spell, you let the enemies come to you, and the fight is over in 3-4 rounds.
But a cleric can contribute in a myriad of ways, all of which let him "do combat."
If you're not built for weapon HP damage combat, but you need to do it for some reason, there are buffs to make you good at it for that short duration that you'd be required to do HP damage.
But any way you look at it, a cleric, any cleric, can do combat. Even summoning with no feats lets a cleric contribute meaningfully in fights.
Now if tiers were all about combat then it may seem strange that a cleric is tier 1. But it's all about how many options do they have in a variety of situations, where combat is only 1 little section of the things being considered.
also if you're ranking classes based off of options and flexibility then cleric>Oracler>barb>fighter hence the tiers they are in.
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Is everyone hype for my follow-up installment, "Why is the Wizard a Tier One Class?"? I bet it's gonna be even better than this one!
I'm personally hyped for the threequel: "Why the Fighter is a Tier One Class"!
Is everyone hype for my follow-up installment, "Why is the Wizard a Tier One Class?"? I bet it's gonna be even better than this one!
Ooooh, does this one involve a spell duel between an arcanist and an exploiter Wizard?
Eh. A Cleric with a Bastard Sword via favored weapon wielding it two handed is already up to par with most martials utilizing only Power Attack.
Add in a bunch of delicious modifiers and you've got a battle juggernaut who can spike in the event you have a party scout worth a damn. But then you also get a bunch of utility spells for solving all sorts of problems with a clever player.
Clerics get one of the most powerful divination spells in the damn game...
DIVINATION.
And "Find The Path"... Always fun when the GM says "You find yourselves in a maze..." or some such just for the Cleric to go "LOL! No!".